Penchaser - Posted - 04/06/2007:  23:45:23

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As I am now about 15 months into learning to play clawhammer I am getting more focused on refining my technique. I am not happy with my pull-offs. What is the secret to getting nice clean, good sounding pull offs?

Bob

japus - Posted - 04/06/2007:  23:48:22

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For me it is correct action, bridge alignment..and lots pf practice

Forever a beginner
Best wishes....Indiana Pa.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/07/2007:  02:51:20

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Pull offs should be done with a sharp movement to the side - towrad the palm. There should be no "lift" made to the finger - it stays down completely.
I always recommend reducing anything to the simplest form to practice. In the case of hammers and pulls I even recommend learning how to use each finger separately. First learn how to do them wiht the index finger, then the middle, and finally the ring. You can learn the pinky too but if it doesn't have the strength it might be better to wait.
Here is the exercise I start people on:
Capo the instrument at least 4 frets up from the nut - if you have a Shub type capo go higher. If you have quite large hands go lower.
Plant your ring finger on the 2nd string 4 frets up from the capo. All further instructions are to be read as if the capo equals the nut.
Place your Index finger on the 2nd fret of the 1st string.
Pull the finger sharply to the side toward the palm to sound the open string. You should get a sharp clear note.
When that is working try it with your index finger on the 2nd fret of the 3rd string. The side snap has to be more controlled here as you are in the middle of the neck.
Next go with the middle finger placed on the 3rd fret - 1st string and 3rd string.
Finally put the index finger on the 2nd fret of the 2nd string and do the pulls with the ring finger.

Later you can work on getting pulls without having a finger planted on the fingerboard, and eventually pulling the fingers off in order etc. But this should be enough to get you started and then you can really get along just using pulls in the context of tunes you are playing.



The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

janolov - Posted - 04/07/2007:  03:12:22

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I have heard people say pull off, push off and pluck off. Is there differences between them or is it the usual pheomena that a certain thing has several names? I use pull off when I pull off on a fretted string and pluck off when when i pull off an open non-fretted string. I also read push off a while ago in the Scruggs style forum and they had that opposite to pull off.

Janolov

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/07/2007:  03:17:50

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Pull off is the only term I've heard in 48 years of playing fretted instruments. Those Scruggs boys tend to do whatever Earl tells them to do so maybe he played a joke on them.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

chip arnold - Posted - 04/07/2007:  08:48:22

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I say "pluck" (but not pluck off) to indicate just that. Actually picking a string, open or otherwise, with a finger of the left hand with no assistance from the right hand. I s'pose it could be called a pull but it's really a seperate technique. I learned this from clawhammerers and use it often.
I also sometimes push off instead of pull. Pulling usually works better and sounds better but (at least in my hands) there are times when a push is the handiest way of getting a note.
At any rate, these are just words and people don't always have exactly the same take on the meaning of words. I say learn the methods used sucessfully by the best players, or by your own heroes first. When you're comfy doing things "right" you may want to experiment with sin and heresy.

Play with a plan
Chip

banjoholic - Posted - 04/07/2007:  09:19:03

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Yes, push off is often used to refer to the technique of pushing the finger away from the palm, as opposed to pulling towards the palm. They are simply two ways of producing the same effect, and you may want to experiment with which one works best for you. The goal is simply to set the string in motion with the fretting hand. I've seen professionals use either technique. Tony Trishka uses only push-offs. Personally, I'm like Chip, I vary depending on what is more convenient at the time - usually depends on which direction my fretting hand is moving on the fretboard (going towards the fifth, use a "push off, going towards the first, use a "pull off"). Just find what works for you, and make sure you can get a nice clear note with it.

Penchaser - Posted - 04/07/2007:  13:04:44

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Thanks Oldwoodchuckb,

This is exactly the kind of practice technique I was looking for. Also, the Rocket Science banjo videos are great.

Bob

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/07/2007:  14:41:13

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Going away from the palm will take more energy and will not get as sharp a snap. No movement of that nature is used in classical of flamenco guitar where the fingers must work at their most efficient.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

banjoholic - Posted - 04/07/2007:  15:18:29

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Going away from the palm will take more energy and will not get as sharp a snap.

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Interesting...I've heard the exact same argument given for doing a push off. Personally, I've had to work on getting my pull-offs to sound as loud and sharp as my push-offs. But this makes sense from an anatomical perspective - your muscles are able to generate the greatest amount of force the greater they are stretched, and relatedly the amount of force a flexor muscle is able to generate is inversely proportional to the amount of flexion that already exists. Thus, with a finger that's already flexed and holding a string on a fret, the amount of force you're able to generate by pulling towards the palm (further flexion) is much less than the amount you can generate by extending the finger away.

This doesn't necessarily hold true for alternate string pull-offs, where the fretting hand pulls off on a string without the playing hand first striking it. In this case, the string doesn't have to be fretted, so the left hand finger can be held in a neutral position (not flexed) until called upon to pluck the string. I find it much easier to perform a crisp "pull off" in this circumstance.

Of course, if you adopt the "push off", you may become the laughing stock of the flamenco guitar community.

Stev187 - Posted - 04/07/2007:  18:57:33

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Going away from the palm will take more energy and will not get as sharp a snap.

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Funny I should see this issue today. I have Bob Carlin's Round Peak DVD; while I know most of the tunes on there, it's cool to slow down and learn them the way someone else plays them, especially somebody like Carlin. On one of the tunes, Cockerham's "Train 45" I believe, he makes a point of demonstrating the push off instead of the pull off. The main difference I heard is a slight bend in the string before the release.

Interesting.

Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]

-----------------------------------------
JOIN THE UNION!
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oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/07/2007:  19:07:07

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Look at the motion that would be necessary to do a push off. The fingler naturally will pluck toward the palm and will do it without losing contact with the fingerboard. Pushing away from the palm involves opening out the finger and it will do it's best to rise upward hinged away from the fingerboard - lost motion = lost energy. Lost energy = mistakes.
Andres Segovia, Tal Farlow, Tony Pass, Laurindo Almeidia, Christopher Parkening, John Dowland, Julian Bream, Sabicas, Escudero, Serranos, Pete Seeger, Peggy Seeger, Mike Seeger, Scott Ainslie, Hedy West, Ken Perlman Happy Traum, Artie Traum, Art Rosenbaum, and everyone who has ever written a guitar or banjo, or mandolin or dulcimer method (save possibly those Scruggsy guys) - there has to be a reason why "push offs" don't exist in the literature.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

banjoholic - Posted - 04/07/2007:  20:09:55

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

Look at the motion that would be necessary to do a push off. The fingler naturally will pluck toward the palm and will do it without losing contact with the fingerboard. Pushing away from the palm involves opening out the finger and it will do it's best to rise upward hinged away from the fingerboard - lost motion = lost energy. Lost energy = mistakes.
Andres Segovia, Tal Farlow, Tony Pass, Laurindo Almeidia, Christopher Parkening, John Dowland, Julian Bream, Sabicas, Escudero, Serranos, Pete Seeger, Peggy Seeger, Mike Seeger, Scott Ainslie, Hedy West, Ken Perlman Happy Traum, Artie Traum, Art Rosenbaum, and everyone who has ever written a guitar or banjo, or mandolin or dulcimer method (save possibly those Scruggsy guys) - there has to be a reason why "push offs" don't exist in the literature.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

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My first introduction to a pull off came from a guitar instruction book, and described it as pushing off instead of pulling. So that's how I first learned it. I've since come across ones that describe both techniques, and ones that describe pulling off. So it certainly exists in the literature. I'm not sure I quite understand the lost motion reasoning - I think a visual demonstration would reveal that's not the case. At any rate, given that there are very proficient players who employ either technique, the take home message should be either can work well. What works best for you likely depends on the length of your fingers.

This horse is starting to smell.

chip arnold - Posted - 04/07/2007:  20:59:39

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Well, I just sat down to push and pull. I found that I push much more than I pull. I also found that my pushing finger travels no further from the string/fingerboard than my pulling finger. I've been doing it this way for many years and so it seems natural to me. I suppose that had I been pulling for the same amount of time, that would feel natural instead. I say go with what is comfortable for you. If you're just starting out you might work on both ways and see if you don't settle naturally into one or the other. Or you'll end up being proficient at both. Either way you'll be playing the banjo!

Play with a plan
Chip

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/07/2007:  21:59:14

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I would most definately say it would be a serious mistake to either call this Push off "natural" or recommend it. There is a reason why in over 1000 years of fretted instruments the "Push Off" does not exist. There is a great deal more enoegy being expended and the finger tends to run itself under the next string unless an extra move is made to actually force release -- Pushing like this is done to bend notes - mostly on the treble strings - bass strings are pulled. Unless you actually lift the finger away from the string you will not get the open (or fretted) lower note. Extra moves mean extra work, and extra work means loss of efficiency.
If you think that because some itinerant players do this wrong that it is okay to tell beginners to go forth and do likewise you are doing a dis-service to the student. It could also be considered players choice to hold the left hand above the neck instead of under, and there have indeed been a number of well known players who did just that - but no one teaches overhand fretting because it is not good for the shoulder. Just as no serious guitar, banjo, mandolin or other fretted instrument method teaches "push offs".
As some sort of special effect I can see why someone might want to push instead of pull, but the extra effort involved - especially considering many tunes average at least 1 pull off per measure is going to cost the player in both the short and the long run.
Yes clawhammer banjo is a "folk" style, but that is no reason to do things the hard way. If you do it now, do it - fine and dandy, but don't stick beginners with an inefficient method by calling it "players choice".



The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

banjoholic - Posted - 04/07/2007:  22:42:12

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

There is a reason why in over 1000 years of fretted instruments the "Push Off" does not exist.

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Umm....Of course it exists - I just did one about 30 minutes ago?!!?? Sounded pretty good, too!

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

If you think that because some itinerant players do this wrong that it is okay to tell beginners to go forth and do likewise you are doing a dis-service to the student.

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You just called Tony Trischka, one of the most skilled and successful banjo players in the world, an itinerant player! I suppose we should all be so lucky as to become itinerant players.

Anyhow, I kind of feel like I'm arguing with a rock, so I'll give up now. I had no idea pull offs were such a touchy subject!!

Stev187 - Posted - 04/07/2007:  23:30:59

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
Extra moves mean extra work, and extra work means loss of efficiency.

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This rule is quite true. In order to learn to play the string bass, my teacher had to work very hard to instill in me an economy of motion that I still use to this day. This method of instruction was based on hundreds of years of stringed instrument pedagogy.

However, we know that for every rule there is at least one exception. If the most ergonomic means of fingering were mandated for every phrase, we would lose much of what is interesting about style. This can be said for every instrument known to man in every culture. I know much more about bassists than banjo players in this context. Name a virtuoso on any instrument, and you can point to elements of his or her technique that deviate from the rule stated above. Chances are, those deviations are--in large part--the things that make their playing unique, colorful, and special.

quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb
If you think that because some itinerant players do this wrong that it is okay to tell beginners to go forth and do likewise...

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Italics mine. I will bypass the term itenerant (we'll let Bob Carlin and Tony Trishka defend themselves) and quibble with the idea of a technique being "wrong." Again, simply because a technique is not the most ergonomic one does not make it "wrong"

It might be interesting to shift our focus to the first human instrument, the voice. Our favorite traditional singers do all kinds of things with their voices that would not be considered "natural." In fact, professional voice coaches, armed with wonderfully accrutate descriptions of how voices work, would argue against most of what our best singers do. Does that make it "wrong?"

Perhaps the pull off is not in "the literature" because, until the very recent past, our music had no literature, coming mainly from the oral tradition.

Someone intimated this horse was dead, and perhaps it is. Actually, I would say that this is one of the elements of banjo playing that just doesn't matter much. Perhaps this debate is so heated because the stakes are so low...

Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]

-----------------------------------------
JOIN THE UNION!
http://www.banjohangout.org/playersunion/

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Edited by - Stev187 on 04/07/2007 23:33:06

chip arnold - Posted - 04/08/2007:  00:05:40

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I just played Cold Frosty Morning and posted it on my BHO page. It's chuck full of push offs and nary a single pull off. Have a listen. I'm pretty comfortable doing things wrong. My advice to others is still the same as I said above:
When you're comfy doing things "right" you may want to experiment with sin and heresy.



Play with a plan
Chip

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/08/2007:  00:10:00

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While I always pull off, I have a student who came to me pulling off the first three strings and pushing off the fourth. Since it seemed to be working fine for him, I didn`t try to fix it.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/08/2007:  05:42:57

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And perhaps the stakes are very high. There are three basic ways to get to a note - hit it dead on, hit low then come up, and hit high then drop down. You can combine these in a million ways, but these are the 3 basics - so for stringed instruments we are talking about one of only three ways to acquire a note - that is not "low stakes".
If you can play doing push offs that is just great for you - congrats, you have more tools than the rest of us. But to turn a thousand years of accepted practice on it's ear because one self taught virtuoso can do it, is going to have a very negative impact on the the non-virtousos who follow.
There is a famouus picture of Segovia's right hand. For reasons unknown to anyone in the world he was photographed with all of his fingers on a single string, and with his writst bent at an angle that had to be downright painful to hold for more than a minute or so. This "string" was not even attached to a guitar. Hours of film/tape footage exist showing Segovia playing with his wrist in a normal relaxed position, but this one still picture that was no doubt staged quickly and probably for a purpose more artistic than educational became THE RULE for right hand position and showed up in many articles and even books on classical guitar. Then Aaron Shirer came along started studying the bones of the hand and the stresses that tendons put on those bones. He eventually built a career out of explaining that the famous picture was not only inaccurate but also an impediment to every guitarist who tried to follow the example. It doesn't take much to send a lot of people over the cliff of failure. Shirer's books on classical guitar are based on doing things with the highest efficiency while following well thought out ergonomic principles. Segovia was a virtuoso, and a child prodigy who played with his wrist in a comfortable position but who never really thought about how his muscles were involved with guitar and made the mistake of allowing one really bad photograph to screw up classical guitar teaching for a good half century.
For anyone interested in taking clawhammer banjo to the ultimate in melodic playing, Ken Perlman has a book with hundreds of Aaron Shirer's exercises tabbed out for the banjo. Most of the exercises come from one of the bibles of classical guitar training "The Slur, Ornament, & Reach Development Book". In both the Shirer original and Ken's re-working you will find no mention of a "push off" or any technique based on pushing off. There are dozens of pull off, and hammer on exercises - many combined. One point I haven't even gone into up till now is that using the fingers to push in the wrong direction leaves them poorly placed to hammer on - so there is a secondary adjustment that has to be made. What about the tendency of a string to go under the next string when it is pushed - the nail is coming toward the string at a low angle and can actually slide the finger and the string under the next string - watch any rock guitarist "bend" his "B" string up around the 14th fret - some of them push that string under not only the G but the D as well. When you snap the finger toward the palm you stay in arched (playing) position. The finger hits the next higher pitched string with the pad - a large suirface that does not easily go under that next string. So the pull off is self limiting - it is like a rest stroke and leaves the finger in a position to hammer on easily, on the pulled off string or any other. The push off - has to be recovered from. I do my best to make sure I'm not teaching anything anyone is going to have to re-learn later - I know I've made some such mistakes and every teacher has. But I don't go intentionally making more work for them and giving them techniques that are going to cause trouble down the road.
I've never taught a single banjo student my "single string" technique - where the frail finger and the thumb play notes on the same string one after another - I can tell you it is a pretty handy thing to be able to do and back when my hands weren't quite so arthritic I could do some darn near Reno picking in clawhammer. Some of my students wanted to know why i was denying them a useful technique - aren't we good enough?". I made mumbled answers and did my best to change the subject. The Don Reno techniques don't tend to work all that well in clawhammer. I could keep then in control for a while and could even get a "power" TREMOLO going occasionally, but it was never in real control. Ken Perlman spent quiite a while watching the hand an concluded it was not really buiilding on the techniques, That what I did was based in flamenco which is a highly organized style but is willing to fight at cross porpouses making big mistakes and trying to reproduce the error consistently enough to make it a virtue. It didn't happen and I decided I didn't want my name associated with it. I still play that way frequently, but I don't tab it out or instruct people in how to do it. The technique comes from flamenco where it works but I've never successfully made it drive the banjo way I want, If I ever succeed - I still doubt I will present it to the world as a hot new way--not unless I can transmit it easily to other clawhammer players and the speed the arthritus is taking over the hands seems to be a lot faster than the speed of the fingers learning hot new techniques. I suspect a few months of rest stroke action might give the banjo student the tecnhnique necessary, but we are still left needing a real reason to do it. I simply haven't found a good one. Someday the right tune might appear and it will be like the C# tuning for 'Hanged Man's Reel' or the Galax Lick for Backstep Cindy. Eveyone will cry "Hot-Cha-Chaa" and the stage will burn with energy.




































































































































































































The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

chip arnold - Posted - 04/08/2007:  08:52:42

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Quote from OWCB: "But to turn a thousand years of accepted practice on it's ear because one self taught virtuoso can do it"
Orvill and Wilbur, Misters Ford, Durea and Benz, Scruggs, Keys, etc would be likely to disagree!
But You may have the day. I can't make a single chord on a guitar and am not too sure what flamenco is anyway. I play the banjo. Not all that well and I'll be happy to admit that there are likely to be better ways to play than mine. My way comes from sitting alone working out sounds that apeal to me, watching and listening to others, clues from the folks whose playing I admire and so on. I've spent many an hour talking with, playing with and listening to those I consider to be virtuosos and absorbing what I could. But I've never had a "lesson". My style is different, definitely not mainstream and I think it's safe to say that it will not become the next rage in OT music.

Play with a plan
Chip

Kero - Posted - 04/08/2007:  09:52:50

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb

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Comparing appples and oranges.

There is no need for THAT kind of speed or ecenomy in classical guitar, for the left hand.

In a 260 bpm driving bgrass, pull downs just could/would not cut it.

I'm a classical guitar player btw..

"It's not writing, it's typing
Jack Kerouac"

Tarn - Posted - 04/08/2007:  11:21:32

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OK, I'll throw in 2 cents. I always pull off as it's what I've learned. I started on guitar many years ago and that's the way I did them. But if I'd learned to "push off" I'm sure that's what I'd do or it would just feel wrong. Sometimes when I pull off on the 1st string I get a "extra sound". Pushing off may sound better here but I still pull and work it.

I llike what chip arnold said about his playing. For me and evidently a few others, I play for me. I play to satisfy my interest and the desire to get into a song. A purist I am not but I'd really like to play a song the way it was meant to be played, which after seeing so many versions of about everything seems to be the way any paticular body meant it to be played, excepting maybe the first body to write it. To me, same goes with pull offs. What ever works best for you. Sounds like oldwoodchuck has had many years to perfect his playing and he's sharing what works best for him, with us.

Rob

banjoholic - Posted - 04/08/2007:  14:23:32

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As it turns out, the respected and published banjo teacher Eddie Collins has an article in this month's Banjo Newsletter devoted entirely to pull-offs! Here's an excerpt:

"Many players push their finger in an upward motion instead of pulling down to sound the second note. This is a mater of personal preference for the most part. Some push the note on string 4 as the finger moves away from string 3, not toward it where it might create some string noise. Conversely, you may wish to pull down when performing the pull-off on string 1..."

Well put, Eddie!

Stev187 - Posted - 04/08/2007:  17:18:10

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One of the things that has attracted me to the banjo was the lack of prescriptive pedagogy. You play what works. I respect other points of view, but I still think there is very little at stake in the pull off or push off debate. I never push off. But I also don't care.

Happy Easter.

Steve
Flint, Michigan [USA]

-----------------------------------------
JOIN THE UNION!
http://www.banjohangout.org/playersunion/

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/08/2007:  17:53:52

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quote:

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Originally posted by banjoholic
[br
Anyhow, I kind of feel like I'm arguing with a rock, so I'll give up now. I had no idea pull offs were such a touchy subject!!

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As is often said (admittedly by myself also), if it works for you then it's all good. The WoodChuck's point is of course not contrary to that but rather that pushing off is not an economical technique and should not be furthered by being taught. It would be very difficult to convince someone who has mastery of the technique not to teach it, although The WoodChuck addresses that issue in his post about his own "single-string" technique.

Seems like somewhere in the dim recesses of my memory I can recall "pushing-off" in my beginner days, but at some early and un-recalled point I dropped the technique and converted to 100% pull-offs.
Perhaps this makes me prejudiced in favor of pull-offs, but I certainly do see it as the most ergonomic and economic technique of the two. Pulling off has no downside and plenty of advantages while in my opinion, pushing-off has the potential for trouble and is a questionable technique.

Again, if one can make it work, of course go ahead and use the technique, but it would seem that the main argument advanced by the push-off advocates is that "they (and some famous players as well)make it work", whereas The WoodChuck's argument is based on much historical precedent, ergonomics, and to my mind, common sensical deductions based on physiology, not to mention consideration of how the two techniques impact the music and the technical aspects of playing the banjo.

Were I a beginner, The Woodchuck's argument is certainly the most logical and convincing. Again, this is not a condemnation of those who make use of pushing-off. That would be ridiculous, and not at all what The WoodChuck is saying.

As often, I am impressed by The WoodChuck's knowledge and logical presentation.

Add another rock to the pile



R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 04/08/2007 18:01:47

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 04/08/2007:  19:25:14

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I think my point has been made and more would be flogging a dead horse - but if "pushing off" comes up here or anywhere else I inhabit I will make the point that it is a wrong eyed way to teach.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

Jim Yates - Posted - 04/08/2007:  20:11:05

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banjoholic, thanks for that Eddie Collins quote: "Many players push their finger in an upward motion instead of pulling down to sound the second note. This is a mater of personal preference for the most part. Some push the note on string 4 as the finger moves away from string 3, not toward it where it might create some string noise. Conversely, you may wish to pull down when performing the pull-off on string 1..."

I`ll have to show it to the student I mentioned above. He didn`t really know why he pushed on string 4 and pulled on 1,2 and3. Now he has a reason if someone asks, even if it`s not the real one.

banjoholic - Posted - 04/08/2007:  20:22:57

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You're welcome, Jim. I was actually doing the same thing subconsciously as well before I realized what I was doing, and why. As I said earlier, I now usually also pull if my fretting hand is moving towards the first string, and push when moving towards the fifth, as this then puts my finger over the next string to be fretted, which I find to be more efficient (though admittedly I rarely play a tune where this kind of efficiency is reallly required). The two movements (the push and the pull) are actually mirror images of each other.

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Edited by - banjoholic on 04/08/2007 20:23:30