pweller - Posted - 03/02/2007:  20:48:44

---

I've noticed certain Irish banjoists, most notable Luke Kelly and the fellow from the Wolfe Tones use five string banjos. I was just curious as to what tunings Irish musicians use on five strings. Is it GDAE just with a 5th string, or do they use open G?

Scarecrow - Posted - 03/03/2007:  02:57:46

---

GDAE is impractical. That G has to be really low.
Many Irish players don't use the 5th string.

Scarecrow

Qui tacet consentit.

Banjowen - Posted - 03/03/2007:  05:51:10

---

Most three finger style players use standard G-tuning to play Irish traditional music, as for Irish folk music I think Luke Kelly used mainly G-tuning and sometimes C-tuning , not forgetting Luke played a long necked banjo.

Owen.


http://www.ukbluegrass.com

www.banjohollow.ic24.net

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/04/2007:  17:45:00

---

This query raises many interesting and sticky questions (and potential confusions) about how the five-string is used as an accompaniment and as a melody instrument in Irish, Celtic and traditional music. Many players know that, g D G B D works, but it's not the only tuning.... This topic, to my mind, branches out in several directions, so this reply is a short essay -- my apology for the length. I write books about this stuff, as you can tell.

First, creative folk and traditional singers have always used whatever tunings and capoings suit their vocal range, but G has been the standard for many Irish ballad singers. Dropping the low D to C has always been an option -- making the 5-string one step closer to plectrum banjo -- as is tuning down or tuning up a bit, using a capo, experimenting with drones, modal tunings and the like. These things are not written in stone. There are no commandments, but there is endless creativity.

When it comes to tune playing, G tuning (no capo) is still the standard tuning for Irish and Celtic five-string, which includes Scottish, e.g., championed by Iain MacLachlan, and tunes from other Celtic nations, and the diaspora, e.g., Prince Edward Island, Cape Breton, Shetland, Galicia, New England, etc. Other tunings are, of course, possible, and work well for playing in the various modes. Such tunings would work better in a concert or performance setting than at a *flying* session, unless one can tune very quickly, perhaps using Keith tuners -- still a time-saving option.

Irish, Scottish and Celtic five-string banjo players use all *five* strings. If they do not use all five strings they may be using a plectrum or doing mainly single-string (like using a plectrum) and playing what amounts to a plectrum banjo (casually re-tuned to DGBD) with fingerpicks, which works well, using fretting techniques similar to guitar playing. Not everybody can do it, but not everybody can play the five-string as a five-string either. It becomes a personal choice in the end. One could also tune to DGBE (like a tenor guitar), if one is so inclined (maybe if you're a flatpicking guitarist).

Some players will tune their banjos to open G but rely on only four strings, avoiding roll patterns or anything that might be construed (or misconstrued) as melodic or bluegrass techniques. This is a fair and logical approach, and it works well. Interestingly, this is almost plectrum tuning (CGBD), save for the fourth string. Is this a working five-string banjo then? Does this unvarying approach need a fifth string if it's not going to be used? Probably not, however, it works and saves money (if one doesn't want to switch over to a plectrum banjo). The 5-string does have the obvious advantage of being two banjos in one. Many amazing players (playing jazz, jugband and Irish trad) use the five-string in this way.

By the way, playing with fingerpicks also works on a tenor banjo, and it is now found on YouTube -- also see Paddy's thread on BH. Check it out here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLEy...ated&search= Cool stuff indeed.

Tunings may vary on any of these instruments, depending on individual playing preferences. It's all good and it all works. For 5-string (up-picking) finger styles, G tuning is still standard. Various old-time tunings also work on stage and at some relaxed sessions, but not at fast-paced Irish or Scottish sessions, because tunes move too quickly and re-tuning takes too long. By the time a player would have re-tuned, another tune has begun in a new key (tuning). Constant re-tuning at a session is like chasing the proverbial dragon -- one never quite reaches the *buzz*. Ken Perlman has championed a very adaptable clawhammer approach to playing Celtic tunes.

Some advocates of the 5-string are ever-focused on tenor (or plectrum) banjo -- for instance, attempting to make the 5-string emulate (at all times) the sound of the Irish tenor, which may not be practicable, for obvious reasons: First, it would make the five-string lose some of its inherent five-string qualities. It would also be unwise to force the flatpicked tenor to emulate the sound and techniques of the fingerpicked five-string. It just ain't gonna happen. However, Gerry O'Connor does a fine job of it, but only at times -- not all the time.

These are very different instruments, with very different ranges and possibilities. Each instrument needs to be approached on its own terms and players need to create their own possibilities for these very different instruments. Of course, borrowing ideas and techniques is permissable and prudent. It's the sound of the music that counts in the end. To learn melodies and variations, a five-string player can listen to and learn from pipers and flute players, fiddlers and accordionists, as well as mandolinists, whistle, harpers and, of course, tenor banjo players. The tenor banjo need not be the exclusive, sole *role model* for the 5-string player. Yet, some folks wouldn't have it any other way. So be it.

Techniques for *Celtic fingerstyle* 5-string, which uses all five strings, include ornamentational fretting-hand techniques, as well as picking-hand, "triplet" and cross-picking techniques. The fifth string also may be fretted, ornamented (using hammer-ons and pull-offs) and occasionally re-tuned. Capo use is not ruled out but generally avoided so that session players may jump from key to key without having to stop the flow to slap on a capo. The thumb, index, middle and even the ring fingers may be used for the picking hand. I haven't seen anyone use all five yet, except for Flamenco-like strums, but someone probably will at some point. Two (single-string) and three (mixed fingerings - not exactly roll patterns) is most common and practicable.

The fifth string is usually tuned to G, or re-tuned higher as a drone, perhaps for a different key, but in a full-fledged five-string banjo style, the fifth string is not ignored, taped down or taken off. The sound of the fifth string, like the five-string banjo, itself need not sound like a tenor banjo, though the five-string can borrow from the Irish tenor (and often does) for playing Celtic music. It can also borrow from any of the other so-called traditional Irish and Celtic instruments, whose origins (in continental Europe and America) are many and varied. A majority of the Celtic instruments have origins in non-Celtic countries, but this did not stop them from finding and earning their way into Celtic playing traditions. None of this happened overnight.

Alongside the tenor banjo, the five-string already has a proud history in seminal Irish singing and trad groups (e.g., The Dubliners, The Clancy Brothers with Tommy Makem) and among the Irish traveller communities, especially its singers and songwriters.

Many strong ballad and folk singers have used the five-string in traditional music -- not limited to Irish music -- not as a lead or melody instrument, but for accompaniment, using the fifth string in various ways, but using it. Along with Luke Kelly, Margaret Barry and Pecker Dunne come to mind, as does the aforementioned Tommy Makem, and of course, Pete and Peggy Seeger. There are many others too.

Experimenting with all five strings is still a sound idea, but if the fifth string is abandoned, the instrument begins to lose its sound and appeal, and, at this stage, there might be no point in having a fifth string, unless it's to be used only as a sympathetic drone, which seems bizarre and a waste of a perfectly good five-string banjo. It has become, in fact, a (4-string) plectrum banjo, whether flatpicked or fingerpicked.

I think this view is common-sensical enough. Many 5-string banjoists happily play all five strings because that's the sound they love best.

Contrary to some prevalent misconceptions about the *Celtic fingerstyle* approach, it is not reducible to bluegrass, melodic or single-string style, though it is informed by many modern playing styles, including melodic, two and three-finger approaches. It requires new, if challenging, playing techniques for both hands -- not just yesterday's single-string and melodic (picking-hand) techniques.

Iain MachLachlan in Edinburgh, Scotland, is doing an amazing job playing Ceilidh dance music (which include some Irish tunes) using this modern approach, playing the five-string banjo and getting it to ring like, well, a five-string banjo. It works and has earned a place in Scottish traditional music.

Check out his playing here: http://www.thunderdog.co.uk/samples.html

The five-string, in G tuning, is still handy for backing ballads (accompaniment) and for blasting off traditional jigs and reels (tune playing). It is not for everyone, but that can be said about any instrument.

Again, sorry for the length; I do think this is tricky topic which has too often been oversimplified or dismissed in many playing circles. There are persistent stereotypes and unfair labels being assigned to instruments, playing styles and individuals. It's still twelve notes in the end. If it works, it's good.

Hey, folks, if it's five-string banjo, let's not forget to play that instrument -- not some other -- instrument -- one at a time. Each banjo is best approached separately -- some players play two or three different kinds of banjos (and possibly other instruments).

I hope this *essay* (it didn't begin that way) helps players to get free in pursuing singing, tuning and playing strategies and to follow their personal muses. Just because someone plays one style doesn't exclude him from exploring and developing in other styles, or on a variety of instruments. It's all good ... except when it's sloppy.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? (Probably not by spending so much time reading this carry-on!) So many tunes, so little time....

Cheers,
Tom

http://www.tomhanway.com/

---

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/05/2007 08:46:20

imac50 - Posted - 03/05/2007:  12:59:43

---

Well said, Tom. I can add that when I first started working on Scottish tunes, I approached it more from a bluegrass context. I played them in G and capoed to A or played them in G tuning with the 5th string raised to A for the key of D. It quickly became apparent that although this worked fine and I could play the tunes, I was going to be limited as to what tunes I could play together. The majority of sets I play change key, so I need to be ready for anything! I think that the only key I rarely get to in a night is Bb, and the High Level Hornpipe in Bb immediately springs to mind. Major and minor keys are interspersed so you need to be as adaptable as possible. The only way I have found that I can do this is by staying in G tuning and playing everything out of that. However, My situation is different from others and for a casual trip down the Celtic music road then retuning will get you started off. Hope this adds a little to make you want to look more. Another thing to check out is on Bongshang's home page http://www.banjohangout.org/myhango...asp?id=10880 a fantastic version of the Shetland slow air Da Slockit Light using Keith tuners. Check it out. I would never have thought of that!

Iain
www.iainmaclachlan.com

cgrotewohl - Posted - 03/05/2007:  17:54:43

---

Hey folks, That was well stated Tom. When I first attempted Irish music on 5-string 17 yrs ago, I thought the tenor banjo would be a good template for figuring this out. There is really no way IMO to do this. I started listening to Irish fiddle, and most beneficial to me, the pipes, flute and tin whistle. The last three have the limitations built in and it would transpose to the 5-string nicely. Although I play all styles, and love melodic playing, I have always been at ease playing single string style. Had to practice it though and had to become fanatical to pull it off. Some have said I have but not in my mind. I actually burnt myself out over many years in Irish bands etc... and went back to BG, Blues, Swing etc...Now I'm back into it and it is just as difficult as it was before. Anyhow, just some feelings here....CG

chris Grotewohl
http://irish5string.homestead.com/chrisG.html

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/06/2007:  04:17:50

---

Thanks guys. I have good teachers.

Having observed both Iain's (mainly Scottish tunes) and Chris's (mainly Irish) playing over the years, I have noticed a similar dedication in unraveling and mastering Celtic tunes. The Scots and Irish, especially fiddlers, have long borrowed from each other, with many of the same jigs, reels and hornpipes common to both camps. There is no impenentrable language barrier when Scottish players sit in at Irish sessions or vice versa. Banjo players can borrow from everybody, and they do.

Of course, since they are not one in the same, the Scottish have native country dance music, e.g., marches, Highland Flings, Strathspeys, Cape Breton and Canadian marches, and even older Schottishes (which found their way into early jazz via Buddy Bolden et al.). Meanwhile the Irish have their own dance music and specialized tunes, including Kerry slides, polkas, slipjigs, setdances (both jig and hornpipe types), plus Carolan tunes and more. Again, players from both traditiions may have some knowledge of these more arcane dance-tune forms.

Iain (Scotland-based) and Chris (America-based) have made great strides in tabbing and arranging these closely related Celtic music forms. Chris has taken a very methodical approach, concentrating on more left-hand blocking and single-string techniques; meanwhile, Iain's approach is to work out of more chord positions, less guitar-like blocking of notes, letting the picking hand do the lion's share of the work using more open strings, including the fifth string, even fretting it. Both players work out of open G (mainly) and generally forgo capo use in Celtic contexts.

Both these approaches work well on the five-string banjo, allowing these players to participate freely (and unobtrusively) in Scottish and Irish traditional music. My approach sometimes is closer to Iain's and sometimes closer to Chris's, depending on the piece of music. I think I probably tend to add more weird ornamentation, e.g., "turns" (gruppetos a.k.a. long and short rolls derived from the fiddle), slides (slurs) and grace notes than my compadres. Chris, like myself, would be into playing more triplets and triplet variations, in emulation of the tenor banjo and people like Gerry O'Connor and John Carty. Iain, whose music is moving at incredible tempos, for dancers at real country dances in Scotland, has a more streamlined bare-bones approach. Still his banjo rings like Scruggs, which is pretty amazing. Iain somehow manages to get lots of ringing open strings, working out of very few positions, even in tunes not in the key of G (especially A modal tunes). When we played at his house in Edinburgh recently, I remember laughing and commenting: "Iain, how are you getting all the notes? Your fingers aren't even moving." It was like banjo ventriloquism. Iain will have a new comprehensive Mel Bay book out soon, a Celtic banjo encyclopedia (not sure of the title). Required reading, as is Chris's work.

It's all good and it all works -- testament to the built-in versatility of the five-string banjo. Check these guys out and get into their playing. They'll blow your mind -- guaranteed -- and make your re-think what is possible on the 5-string banjo.

Cheers,
Tom

http://www.tomhanway.com/

---

Edited by - Tom Hanway on 03/06/2007 06:09:50

Emiel - Posted - 03/06/2007:  05:30:06

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Hanway

One could also tune to DGBE (like a tenor guitar),

---

This is only a side-line and a minor point, but the tenor guitar can be tuned DGBE (a tenor banjo can be tuned this way too, if you want), but it's not standard for the tenor guitar. The tenor guitar's standard tuning is CGDA (or alternatively GDAE or DGBE). Also open tunings are done, but standard for jazz music is CGDA. See: http://www.tenorguitar.com/glance.html

Emiel


http://www.nowhereradio.com/emiel
http://www.bluerounders.com

Tom Hanway - Posted - 03/06/2007:  08:51:13

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pweller

I've noticed certain Irish banjoists, most notable Luke Kelly and the fellow from the Wolfe Tones use five string banjos. I was just curious as to what tunings Irish musicians use on five strings. Is it GDAE just with a 5th string, or do they use open G?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scarecrow

GDAE is impractical. That G has to be really low.
Many Irish players don't use the 5th string.

Scarecrow

Qui tacet consentit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Hanway

One could also tune to DGBE (like a tenor guitar),

---

This is only a side-line and a minor point, but the tenor guitar can be tuned DGBE (a tenor banjo can be tuned this way too, if you want), but it's not standard for the tenor guitar. The tenor guitar's standard tuning is CGDA (or alternatively GDAE or DGBE). Also open tunings are done, but standard for jazz music is CGDA. See: http://www.tenorguitar.com/glance.html

Emiel


http://www.nowhereradio.com/emiel
http://www.bluerounders.com

---

Yes, excellent point -- that's spot-on about multiple tunings for tenor guitar. It too is used in Celtic music -- to great effect! While visiting Iain in Edinburgh a few weeks back, I had the pleasure of being invited to a Scottish session at The Royal Oak with John Martin (Tannahill Weavers) and Kevin Macleod (former road manager for De Dannan). This was not an Irish session, though Irish tunes were played from time to time. Kevin is a fantastic tenor banjoist, guitarist and multi-instrumentalist; actually he was playing tunes on a National guitar, tuned GDAE, never pulling out the banjo, letting me blast 5-string banjo (Iain's SwallowTail) and requesting American tunes and songs. I gladly obliged. I played "Brilliancy" (Blaine Sprouse version) and a Civil War-era tune ("John Brown's March"), plus a mixed bag of Irish and Scottish tunes, with a few O'Carolan tunes. Kevin is a great player, and he played lots of Scottish dance and Shetland tunes -- all very clean and tasty. http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/kevinmacleod/

I've yet to meet him, but they reminded me about Iain Carmichael, and they told me that he plays in a style very similar to my own, using a five-string -- probably G tuning. I've yet to meet him but look forward to hearing him. He's only three hours away in or around Belfast. Iain Carmichael is married to a well-known musician and set dance teacher, Mary Fox. I hope to meet them and have some tunes with them.

In reply to Chris, about first attempts playing Irish tunes, it was Tony Trischka who got me interested early on in tackling tunes out of O'Neill's, e.g., "The First Night in America," which I still play at sessions. Even before that I was playing "Red Haired Boy" single-string (like you Chris), learning to play it in literally every key (climbing up the neck). I played the odd Irish tune (like you Iain, sometimes raising the fifth string to A) in bluegrass and country bands, e.g., Provincetown Jugband, Sun Mountain Band, John Herald Band. Becoming a tune-aholic while drinking in Irish bars in the Bronx, I soon found myself playing all night at Irish sessions all over New York, with wonderful players like Tony DeMarco (Sligo-style master), Joanie Madden (Cherish the Ladies), Mary "Raff" Rafferty (a box player, also Cherish the Ladies), Andy McGann (Sligo-style master), Joe "Banjo" Burke (tenor banjoist), Brian Conway (Sligo-style master), Eileen Ivers, Linda Hickman et al. This kicked my ***. Soon I was playing in a grunge-Irish-rock band, playing crossover material, plugging in, turning up insanely loud, feeding back, not giving a rat's behind, and hammering out jigs and reels over thundering rock drums. I miss those days destroying tunes in Irish-ghetto pubs in Woodside, Queens, Bainbridge and Woodlawn in the Bronx, as well as the (then) ungentrified bowels of Manhattan.

I burnt out on that -- too many late nights -- and I also was very glad to get away from it and play saner bluegrass and folk festivals again. In Ireland, I get to follow all my muses and travel in Europe, with trips back to the States (and an upcoming gig at Rodeo Bar in NYC).

I can appreciate more than ever what other players have aspired to and achieved in the challenging national and regional styles known as Celtic music. I have written "Perspective and Meaning in Celtic Music" for the Celtic League, American Branch, at: http://www.celticleague.org/celtic-music.html -- and like others, know how the term has been manipulated and used as a marketing tool, sometimes to sell New Age drek, blurring real and valuable distinctions about various styles of actual Celtic music, as found at sessions and dances.

The Celtic 5-string banjo world is beginning to emerge in all the likely (and some unlikely) places. It is becoming aware of and taking stock of itself. It's nice to see and be a part of this new era in banjo. It's not just happening in the States and in Canada, but all over. There's also Dubliner Paddy Kiernan, who is a young wizard, playing bluegrass, but musically eclectic -- also writing Irish tunes for the 5-string (G tuning). Leon Hunt is on the scene playing great things, and so many other creative players are experimenting around the globe, in the Celtic diaspora and in *Celtica*!

Let's not forget Bill Keith, Tony Trischka and Béla. They've all made vital contributions to the Celtic style and repertoire on the 5-string (G tuning). Scott Vestal has a really hip version of "Paddy on the Turnpike" on BH (Tablature section). It's a jazzy American setting, but it's awesome, closely related to "The Bunch of Keys" (Gaelic).

So many tunes, so little time ... or whiskey....


Cheers,
Tom

http://www.tomhanway.com/