jsinjin - Posted - 06/12/2026:  13:33:01

I attended two beginner jams so far at banjo camp and in one they did finally play a song I knew. I couldn’t keep up but I knew it. The rest I just sort of sit dumbfounded and lost. I have no idea what any of the chords sound like. What to play. They would ask what tune people want and what song and I’m just lost. I simply don’t get how people hear this and join in. To me it’s the absolute most uncomfortable and I can’t wait until it’s over. I wind up muting the strings and just pretjng to play song after song. The concept of just knowing and joining in is so completely alien I just zone out and wait for the next song hoping it’s something I’ve heard of. I seriously can’t hear these chord changes at all. I mean I know the chords. I have them all memorized but trying to guess which one is being played is just so completely alien to me. I have love the parts of learning new songs and the parts on melody and technique were a blast but I feel like everyone just know ms every song that’s named and just rolls in on the 1-2-3-4 and rocks it.

I just feel like everyone is juggling bowling balls and I’m unsure how to even tell how to pick one up.

I feel like the beginner is bum ditty which I have or techniques which I she then there is just this gulf of just start playing and I just can’t hear it at all. It’s very very frustrating. I’ve picked up two tunes here and could get them and the complexity of them but the concept of playing just by hearing something I haven’t heard before is just so alien. Every song I jst make up like I’m playing. I just assume that there are x number of chords and I have to guess which one might come next on ever song.

pinenut - Posted - 06/12/2026:  13:55:11

Initial Jam Strategy:  survival is winning, plan on a years long process, the steps are soft and movable

step 1:  speed, timing and emphasis

 - ensure the banjo is mostly in-tune and set to a key appropriate to the tune being played

 - lightly mute at the 12th fret and "play" anything with the right hand that is keeping with the rhythm and time

- learn more tunes and techniques during practice time

step 2:  guessing

 - ensure the banjo is tune to a key appropriate to the tune being played

 - bounce between I, IV and V chords while playing something with the right that keeps with the rhythm and time 

- learn more tunes and techniques during practice time

step 3:  hearing

 - ensure the banjo is tune to a key appropriate to the tune being played

 - match the I, IV and V chords to tune while playing something with the right that keeps with the rhythm and time 

- learn more tunes and techniques during practice time

step 4: initial survival curve complete

 - move with the group

- learn more tunes and techniques during practice time

Edited by - pinenut on 06/12/2026 14:10:27

Gallaher - Posted - 06/12/2026:  14:01:00

Just remember, young or old everyone starts at the same place and you can learn.

Maybe try an app like Strum Machine when you get home. It plays the chords and shows them at the same time. You can adjust the speed as slow as you need.
Do that for endless hours and you’ll catch on.
Best luck.

jsinjin - Posted - 06/12/2026:  14:05:25

I do have strum machine. Learning to play tunes is so much easier than guessing at jams

banjered - Posted - 06/12/2026:  14:07:17

At my first jam I knew two tunes, Boneparte Crossing the Rhine and The Year of Jubilo. Two decades later I know about 200 or so. Picking up songs on the fly is a skill that takes time to develop and I am still mediocre at it. At the "Q" to the left of this page you can get a lot of information on "first jams" or " how to learn CH tunes" etc. It may look like people were easily cranking out tunes but believe me a lot of time and practice preceded all that. You jumped into the deep end of the pool, being lost is all part of the learning curve. I was two years in before I knew most/all the tunes in a particular jam, and months later before it happened again. Jamming is a journey where you never quite reach your destination, just enjoy wherever you are at! banjered

jsinjin - Posted - 06/12/2026:  14:24:15

This was the absolute most fun I had. We did an orchestral with a Virginia reel in which some people had the high or low melody, some had the main part and some had the chords. I completely and totally got this. Picked the whole thing up in minutes. There was tab but I didn’t need it. The whole thing just made sense and I had never heard it before studying it.



youtu.be/bA87pw145aM

thars me in the shorts in the top right with my leg crossed in the chair.

if jams were like this I would not be lost at all!

Edited by - jsinjin on 06/12/2026 14:26:09

Owen - Posted - 06/12/2026:  14:36:36

Is your goal to play/jam with others?   ....or to acompany yourself or your family/friends singing a few songs 'round the campfire?  ... or???

==========================================================================================================

'Way back I took lessons for a few months.   We got to the point of my teacher having me chord [i.e. 1,4,5] in whatever key I wanted, and change chords whenever I wanted, and he'd follow me [rather than what seems to be the more conventional me-follow-the guitar-player approach]. I think it had the makings of a productive exercise, but it was just when we abandoned the idea of being snowbirds so we never got to give it a real test.

At the only banjo camp I've attended, at the "slow jam" portion somebody would hold up a placard  showing the chord we were supposed to switch to.  The visual cue seemed to help ... and so long as the lady was organized and paying attention it was a l-o-t easier to see than a guitar player's fat little fingers.   

Banner Blue - Posted - 06/12/2026:  15:50:53

I wish group instructors and slow jam leaders, particularly at camps, would provide a list of songs ahead of time with instructions for people to do before arriving including 1) listen to the listed songs over and over, 2) try to hum the tunes while driving or lawn mowing 3) learn the chords in the songs.

2) Make a practice of when listening to any music to make a game of guessing ahead of time when a chord change is going to occur.

3) sit next to the upright bass player at your jam who will walk to the next chord.

4) if all else fails do what I did and get some sort of bass and work through Andy Hohwald's upright bass DVD.

BruceS2 - Posted - 06/12/2026:  16:26:08

One more idea for you. I remember my first jam and it felt exactly like you describe...and I thought I knew a number of songs! Had no idea of how to make this work. I did go back and figured out to work on the chords of all the song that were played and at least have something to back up with. Also, you bring your phone and install strum machine and pull up the song that is called and at leas have a reference of what the chords are. After a short time you will get it.

My idea is for you to try and find some friends or other players who are also starting and make a private jam at your house. You can limit the songs and as you grow, the group will all learn together and you will be amazed about how much learn. I did this and really think it helped in many ways.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/12/2026:  16:59:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

if jams were like this I would not be lost at all!

---

There are plenty of jams like this. But maybe not where you live.

They're called "slow jams." They are intened especially for beginners. The best slow jams are led by one or two people who are experienced players -- sometimes also teachers -- because someone needs to know what's going on and how to hold a group of beginners together.

It's been clear from your earliest messages here two years ago you've been going to jams that are wrong for you. They're at too high a level where all the participants are advanced players, already know a vast number of songs, and are excellent ear players who can improvise on songs they haven't worked up or are even hearing for the first time. If a jam is not organized or billed as "all levels" the participants don't expect to slow down for beginners.

If this camp session is the first time you got what was going on, I'd say it's possible you've been studying with the wrong teacher. It appears this session leader knows how to get people to understand what's actually happening in the music.  Maybe you didn't spend enough time making non-song chord noise before getting into tunes, where you're emphasizing melody, not always forming chords with your left hand, and so what's happening musically (the chord pattern and changes) is not clear.

When you get home from camp, look for slow jams. Preferably old time, since there won't be anyone leading clawhammer banjo at a bluegrass jam of any speed. And consider finding a new teacher.

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 06/12/2026:  17:32:38

I'm glad to read you're still trying jams, I've read some of the past threads on how this has been a bit of an exercise in frustration.

I've yet to get comfortable with jams, but one thing that has worked for me is watching the guitar player and chording along with them. It's sloppy, it's slow, but it's a step up from playing muted strings.

That's a skill of its own, but since most tunes are built around GCD or CFG, it's achievable so long as the guitar player isn't doing anything fancy.

For comparison, I'm at a point where if they play a tune I'm quite familiar with, I can happily play along. But I'm not really ready to improvise, or modify my playing much. And I only know 0-2 tunes per session.

For songs I don't know, often I can catch the chord progression before the tune is over, and if it comes up in a future jam, I'll be faster at that, and might start trying to guess a few melody notes. Especially if I can crib off a banjo player. Chords plus a couple important melody notes can be a surprising amount of fun.

For tunes that really catch my ear, I'll make a note of the name and practice at home before the next jam.

...which reminds me I need to attend another one, I've been absent from my local jam for a good 6 months now.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 06/12/2026:  19:34:25

Some people were born to be drummers ha ha!

DonDublin - Posted - 06/12/2026:  19:43:33

IMO you'd be surprised how much listening to the music helps you get a feel for the changes and general melodic patterns. I believe you've indicated that you don't really listen to music except for some classical here and there? I got pretty good at jamming pretty quickly in large part by making a playlist of our standard fiddle tunes and listening to them quite often. It helps that I really enjoy the tunes. Then again, I've always enjoyed pop music. And when I say "pop," I don't necessarily mean top 40 or Taylor Swift/etc (though I'm no snob about that stuff) - I think a lot of the bluegrass music we play could be characterized as pop given that the tunes are often catchy, in 4/4 time, etc.

I believe there is some special alchemy that happens when you spend a lot of time listening to the music and then also playing it (or attempting to play it) with an instrument in your hand. My first instruments were piano (private lessons) and clarinet (school band) as a kid. That was all sheet music. Play the notes on the page. Which is I believe what you've indicated you set out to do. I will acknowledge it's a pretty big mindset shift to go from that "classical" (for lack of a better word) approach to the "by ear" or "by feel" approach. But it's worth it. And I think it's good to be able to do both. The fact is that a lot of these tunes did not originate from sheet music, or at least, the popular recordings of them that we know and love were not played off of sheet music.

Personally I think it's really fun to show up to a jam and listen for the changes and throw in some fills, maybe noodle on a solo if you're feeling saucy. It's fun stuff. But you have to let go of any notion that you will play it exactly right, or play notes according to some recipe, formula, sheet music, etc. Basically what I'm saying is free your mind, maaaaan.

jdeluke137 - Posted - 06/12/2026:  20:35:03

DonDublin makes a great point. One of my banjo teachers once told me that if you don’t listen to it you can’t play it and I’ve found that to be true. His idea of making a playlist of recordings of the songs you heard at the jam and listening to them over and over, maybe slowing them down and practicing changing chords while chopping, will really help you at a live jam. I’ve got over 3000 bluegrass songs on my phone and that’s all I listen to now. That’s not to say that’s absolutely necessary, but after a while you start hearing the fact that many songs have very similar chord progressions and then you have the key to unlocking playing along with a lot of songs you hear at a jam.

John Yerxa - Posted - 06/13/2026:  01:11:36

John

You're getting a lot of good help here. I've read a number of your posts, and can't help feeling like you've been missing something basic - in Medicine we call them "threshold concepts. Do you know what people are talking about when they refer to chords by numbers, ie 1, 4, and 5 (0r I, IV and V)? Can you relate the numbers to the key of the tune? Do you know which chords are the I,IV and V in each key?

Many fiddle tunes and folk songs are structured with fairly predictable progressions, combinations of I, IV and V, with the odd II or vi. There are a few patterns that are common, and you will start to hear, and even anticipate them.

Others have emphasized listening, and I couldn't agree more. Make a list of the tunes that are played, go online and listen/watch every version of those tunes that you can find (there will be many, some of them completely different tunes with the same name). You will start to hear the patterns.

EEB - Posted - 06/13/2026:  03:01:22

The OP highlights a sadly ongoing issue which is the lack of practical help and nurturing to bridge the gap between playing alone and playing with others. Of course it is possible to make this transition alone. There are strategies and aspects that can be practiced that will help. But most, to a greater or lesser extent, flounder unnecessarily. Typically these attempts get partial and intermittent 'windows' of joining a tune. A frustrating hit-and-miss experience of sessions.



But this transition - to full on-the-fly fluidity and independence - is so much more smoothly and efficiently achieved with nurturing and mentoring. I can say that with confidence because we do it. The simple reason being that the necessary skills required are acquired progressively in situ. They can be taught, but not in the transactional way that technique is taught. The acquisition process is different.

Edited by - EEB on 06/13/2026 03:15:29

EEB - Posted - 06/13/2026:  05:02:48

The internet is a gift for finding one’s way to the banjo, basic lessons and the subsequent broadcasting your every move with that banjo.

But the internet also depletes and diminishes.



The context in which playing with others and playing by ear are most naturally acquired are the intimate space. We can describe that with words like ‘nurture’ and ‘mentoring’. What we’re really talking about is the traditional consistent space for social music; within family, with friends and neighbours. A (musical) kinship resource space that shares inwardly, not a broadcasting space that looks outward for ‘validation’.



Camps and workshops are today’s go-to banjo leisure ticket. Fun activity. But the contact is by definition transient. Bluntly…useless for imbuing a person with the wherewithal to feel at home and fully integrate in any session.



Today we have to be ingenious and adaptive to create that consistent local space, where once it was simply called ‘home’. One certainty is that no matter how much we try and convince ourselves of the opposite, the internet is the antithesis of that musical space.

Edited by - EEB on 06/13/2026 05:03:25

Nopix - Posted - 06/13/2026:  06:44:59

OP,
You do understand that if you knew the songs/tunes ahead of time, then got to practice those tunes. . . . . .this is called a Band.

Lots of folks in bands can be lost in jams, because of the unpredictable part. I myself, am atracked to this. That's why it's so exillerating. Skiing down a black diamond run is dang scary. Some go around. Hey, that's fine. Enjoy. And just a reminder: Nobody gets hurt by someone playing a bad note. It's just music.

steve davis - Posted - 06/13/2026:  07:12:58

I grew up in a very musical home.Dad played only by ear all his life and he told me early on,"I'll tell you the chords,but some day you'll just "get it" on your own.Nobody knows why...it'll just happen like a lightbulb turning on.

He finished by saying "When that light turns on let me know so I can stop having to tell you."

Play music with people that play well by ear.

There are a lot of lessons in osmosis.

Edited by - steve davis on 06/13/2026 07:17:45

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/13/2026:  07:13:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by DonDublin

IMO you'd be surprised how much listening to the music helps you get a feel for the changes and general melodic patterns.

I believe you've indicated that you don't really listen to music except for some classical here and there? 

---

And there you have it.

EEB - Posted - 06/13/2026:  07:47:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nopix

OP,

You do understand that if you knew the songs/tunes ahead of time, then got to practice those tunes. . . . . .this is called a Band.



Lots of folks in bands can be lost in jams, because of the unpredictable part. I myself, am atracked to this. That's why it's so exillerating. Skiing down a black diamond run is dang scary. Some go around. Hey, that's fine. Enjoy. And just a reminder: Nobody gets hurt by someone playing a bad note. It's just music.

---

The essential difference between 'session' and 'band' summarised perfectly.

The wide gulf between playing alone, or rehearsed playing in a band, and session playing is the essence of being musically 'out on a wire' like a tight-rope walker. Alert and sensitive to what is happening around us, but trusting to the facility we have.

Relevant facility...

Edited by - EEB on 06/13/2026 07:53:03

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 06/13/2026:  09:39:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nopix

You do understand that if you knew the songs/tunes ahead of time, then got to practice those tunes. . . . . .this is called a Band.

 

---

I think there's a middle ground where you know a lot of the tunes/songs likely to be called at a jam. 

If it's a bluegrass jam, I could point you to the 100-150 songs and tunes that you should be listening to to hang in the great majority of jams.

For old time it seems more jam-dependent. Some keep to a more narrow repertoire, others are more into obscure tunes.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/13/2026:  11:41:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nopix

You do understand that if you knew the songs/tunes ahead of time, then got to practice those tunes. . . . . .this is called a Band.

---

I agree that practice is a big part of what distinguishes a band from a jam (even if the jam is smaller and limited to friends who get together).

But besides practice, there's arrangement: working out how the song goes, which incudes key, tempo, assignment of solos and fills, vocal parts, dynamics within the song, and -- maybe most important of all -- intros and endings. A band that begins and ends songs together almost immediately signals it's a band and not just some guys playing together.

EEB - Posted - 06/13/2026:  13:22:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

For old time it seems more jam-dependent. Some keep to a more narrow repertoire, others are more into obscure tunes.

 

---

Developing the ability to play by ear makes repertoire redundant. We just listen and play. 

I think the inclination to cling to a small number of familiar tunes actually holds people back. We can all develop our ear. But that starts from firstly letting go of a counter-productive sense of what is 'safe' and instead trusting to one's ability and the scope of that ability to increase. Playing by ear isn't, as many imagine, a random leap into the unknown; it is hearing, breaking down and translating the new via your banjo with your existing technique and ability.

Edited by - EEB on 06/13/2026 13:37:26

Nopix - Posted - 06/13/2026:  16:14:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nopix

You do understand that if you knew the songs/tunes ahead of time, then got to practice those tunes. . . . . .this is called a Band.

---

I agree that practice is a big part of what distinguishes a band from a jam (even if the jam is smaller and limited to friends who get together).

But besides practice, there's arrangement: working out how the song goes, which incudes key, tempo, assignment of solos and fills, vocal parts, dynamics within the song, and -- maybe most important of all -- intros and endings. A band that begins and ends songs together almost immediately signals it's a band and not just some guys playing together.

---

I'm not here to argue, Ken.

I think you found a real issue 'upthread' where the OP was not known to listen to music (accept on occasion)

jsinjin - Posted - 06/13/2026:  16:28:41

I think that right now it’s just not the best way for me to learn to play banjo. It’s such an incredibly high bar at this point I’m just not getting anything out of the jams. I keep trying to find an analogy but imagine you have never lifted any weights and the people around you are Olympic weightlifters doing advanced workouts and this is their only opportunity to do the workout and they need their focus. I’m at a point where guessing the tuning or getting to it can take me looking thjngs up and twisting the pegs forever and I normally play at very very slow paces in the 20-50 bpm. The songs I can listen to but they’re really incomprehensible to me with again, billions of notes, instruments coming jn and out, fiddles are incredibly loud, guitars move at high speeds and most to the banjo players just play so fast. It’s just not an enjoyable thing for me.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/13/2026:  16:30:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nopix

I'm not here to argue, Ken.

I think you found a real issue 'upthread' where the OP was not known to listen to music (accept on occasion)

---

I wasn't arguing. I was adding on. Expanding.

I totally agree practice is the differentiation between jammers and bands. I was listing some of the stuff bands practice. Should have expressed it better.

My 1980s bluegrass band would spend time composing intros and endings for some of our songs then practice them to get them to come out like we wanted and so we'd remember. We also arranged when instruments would come in. Nothing like you'd ever hear at a jam.

Our cover of Steve Goodman's "The Dutchman" is an example.

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 06/13/2026:  19:26:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by EEB

---

Developing the ability to play by ear makes repertoire redundant. We just listen and play. 

---

Maybe for old time, where you can get some of the melody after multiple passes through. With bluegrass I think it helps to know how some of the songs and tunes go.

jsinjin - Posted - 06/13/2026:  19:41:28

The more I observe, the more this seems like a mistake. Tonight I watched dozens of the instructors at Midwest banjo camp play music that was so fast and so incredible I could barely keep up. It was their concert. But I realized that learning to play banjo is kind of like trying to run a sub 10 second 100 meter dash except the best way to train for it is to watch and listen to other people run. It just doesn’t work for me for some reason. For most of the people here, the combination of the jams and the reverend of the musicians are the focus of their joy in playing banjo. I’m realizing I just don’t like music. I’m impressed by the art form and the way everyone moves their fingers so fast but I imagine it’s like watching chess when you’re not that interested in that activity. This has been a good bit of introspection and the camp has a lot of nice people. My teacher is great and I love to practice and learn music theory but I just don’t like the music that much independent of the artistry snd capability of everyone. I’m most impressed they spent 20-30-40 or 50 yesrs honing their art. It’s not the people or the art form. I wouldn’t like reading if it was passed from person to person orally via performance.

banjomobob - Posted - 06/13/2026:  20:23:51

It’s like you’re trying to learn to cook but don’t like to eat …

EEB - Posted - 06/13/2026:  21:45:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I think that right now it’s just not the best way for me to learn to play banjo. It’s such an incredibly high bar at this point I’m just not getting anything out of the jams. I keep trying to find an analogy but imagine you have never lifted any weights and the people around you are Olympic weightlifters doing advanced workouts and this is their only opportunity to do the workout and they need their focus. I’m at a point where guessing the tuning or getting to it can take me looking thjngs up and twisting the pegs forever and I normally play at very very slow paces in the 20-50 bpm. The songs I can listen to but they’re really incomprehensible to me with again, billions of notes, instruments coming jn and out, fiddles are incredibly loud, guitars move at high speeds and most to the banjo players just play so fast. It’s just not an enjoyable thing for me.

---

I empathise completely with the frustrating experience you're having. No-one should talk down their own musical choices and preferences. There's no 'fault' with playing at a slower tempo at home. The fact you went to the session suggests you would like to play with others.

Your post highlights and reinforces how a generic, 'one size fits all' approach to music fails many people and worse, teaches that the attendee is the 'problem'. In attempting to fit yourself to that careless template  your confidence takes a dive and you doubt yourself - exactly the opposite of what you need to develop and progress.

Do you have a friend who plays music? Maybe the two of you can get together in your own time? That would naturally get you used to the sound of another instrument in 'your' musical space. Take one thing at a time rather like you learned to swim as a kid. No healthy nurturing parent throws their child into the deep end of the pool as an 'introduction' to the water. That would be a form of cruelty and abuse. The 'getting used to' is integrated over a period of time. As your confidence is nurtured, so you develop the relevant facility for comfort - and pleasure - in that new environment.

'Slow jams' are loosely, 'sort of' meant to do this 'getting used to' but too often they don't. Because the real basics of early exposure you would do in the shallow end with a parent have not been attended to.

Intimate, unhurried space.

Edited by - EEB on 06/13/2026 21:59:33

EEB - Posted - 06/13/2026:  22:14:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjomobob

It’s like you’re trying to learn to cook but don’t like to eat …

---

Both are adult, 'further down the line' concepts. Actually we all gained our gradual, incremental introduction to 'food' from our earliest days.

Gastronomic delight and cookery came much later and developed from that foundation of familiarity. Right there is the analogy with music.

No matter if we're 23, 43 or 73, in relation to music we need to start over as infants. 

Edited by - EEB on 06/13/2026 22:24:27

ancient tones - Posted - 06/14/2026:  03:49:36

John/original poster, do you play along to Strum Machine?

Or use learning materials such as the Books by Mary Gordon and Hillary Dirlam tha have the banjo tab and chords in the book. They also supply music to play along with. It used to be CDs now it's online. Do you play along with music at home? Have you tried to make your own jam if you can't find others with whom to play? Have you tried to find a guitar player and a fiddle player to play with?

Nopix - Posted - 06/14/2026:  05:12:48

When I was a school kid, I was Snowballed/Steamroller by a band. Basically invited to be embarrassed.
50 years looking back, those pecker-heads were just playing three chords. They may not have even understood what they had done? It probably set me back ten years. Now, ten years seems like a blink. I don't know if there's a moral in there? But at one time, I was you. It took twenty years plus the right folks around me, for it to click. I watched a deal last night on cognition. There really is a stream of sorts. Everyone is tied together. If it weren't, there'd be no songs nor music. How bout that?

Owen - Posted - 06/14/2026:  07:49:39

 

---

Originally posted by EEB

I empathise completely with the frustrating experience you're having. No-one should talk down their own musical choices and preferences. There's no 'fault' with playing at a slower tempo at home. The fact you went to the session suggests you would like to play with others.

Your post highlights and reinforces how a generic, 'one size fits all' approach to music fails many people and worse, teaches that the attendee is the 'problem'. In attempting to fit yourself to that careless template  your confidence takes a dive and you doubt yourself - exactly the opposite of what you need to develop and progress.

Do you have a friend who plays music? Maybe the two of you can get together in your own time? That would naturally get you used to the sound of another instrument in 'your' musical space. Take one thing at a time rather like you learned to swim as a kid. No healthy nurturing parent throws their child into the deep end of the pool as an 'introduction' to the water. That would be a form of cruelty and abuse. The 'getting used to' is integrated over a period of time. As your confidence is nurtured, so you develop the relevant facility for comfort - and pleasure - in that new environment.

'Slow jams' are loosely, 'sort of' meant to do this 'getting used to' but too often they don't. Because the real basics of early exposure you would do in the shallow end with a parent have not been attended to.

Intimate, unhurried space.

---

As a guy who is very much low man on the totem pole w.r.t banjo, all ^^ sounds good to me, 'cept I wonder (?) about "...suggests you would like to play with others..." as, IIRC,  John has told us on many occasions that that is in no way an objective of his.

Edited by - Owen on 06/14/2026 07:52:50

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/14/2026:  09:22:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I realized that learning to play banjo is kind of like trying to run a sub 10 second 100 meter dash except the best way to train for it is to watch and listen to other people run. It just doesn’t work for me for some reason.  . . . I love to practice and learn music theory but I just don’t like the music that much

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Did you learn your native language by studying grammar and learning to read before you started speaking? Or did you learn language by imitating the sounds of people talking to you -- including vocabulary, grammar, syntax, usage, and idiom -- so that by the time you were three or four years old you were essentially fluent in your native language? I'll guess you had been speaking, reading and writing for years in elementary school before your language curriculum included the first actual grammar lessons.

Likewise with music. And especially an instrument like 5-string banjo -- both clawhammer/old time and three-finger/bluegrass styles -- in which how it's played is as important as what is played.

Learning by watching, listening and repeating makes the most sense for these modes of playing. That's because banjo is not playing literal melody or only melody. It's accompanying itself with chord tones or other harmonizing tones wrapped around the melody or passing notes in between the melody, and the occasional hit of the open fifth string whether it's in the chord or not. In clawhammer, it matters what part of the stroke is making what sound.

These styles of banjo music do not easily lend themselves to written standard notation, for several reasons but in my opinion mostly because: there's more happening than the melody, the melody in most cases isn't as complete or literal as it would be on an instrument such as fiddle or anything played with a flat pick, and position on the fretboard matters (which of several options for the same note you're actually supposed to play). That's why the most common form of written banjo music is tablature: it represents how and where to play the notes, not just the notes and when to play them.

I appreciate your personal preference for understanding theory, which is good in the long run. But I believe it is absolutely unnecessary to know theory in order to play songs in clawhammer or three-finger. The earliest theory you might need can be presented just as useful information: Keys and chords and the note names of the strings. Not a whole lot more.

Later on -- and for some players, "later" is years -- is time enough for theory to get into the why or be more fully explained. Even then, only as far as it helps the player. I've often said that people who have been playing for years, who can play by ear or do OK at jams, but think they don't know theory, actually know more theory than they realize. Again, this is the same as language. We all know our language's grammar long before we're taught the names for the parts of speech or get formal instruction in rules we've been following for years.

Where am I going with all of this?

One place is something you've said several times these past two years, which is you bought your banjo with no particular idea of what type of music you wanted to play on it, or what type of music (and method of playing) is typically played on a 5-string banjo. You've admitted you probably bought the wrong instrument. I agree 100%.

You've told us several times that you assumed music is written out and musicians simply play it as written and the instrument doesn't matter so much.  I don't think you've ever conveyed the understanding or realization that standard notation music doesn't apply to clawhammer banjo, and why that isn't so. 

A version of banjo more in line with your assumptions about music would have been a 4-string banjo -- either tenor or plectrum -- on which you could have taught yourself the locations of the notes, taught yourself to read music, then played literal, linear, melodies (one note after another) with a flat pick. You could also have self-learned to fret and strum chords. Baritone ukulele, tuned like the four highest strings of guitar, might have been even better. Then you would have had a world of printed music in every genre in all the songbooks (or "fake books") with guitar chords and melody lines.

There's still time.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 06/14/2026 09:37:22

jsinjin - Posted - 06/14/2026:  09:37:15

So here is how a weekend went at a big banjo conference camp. I can play the basic bum ditty. Quite well also hammer on drop thumb pull of alternate string pull off and every chord on G D C A and even some weird turnings. I can be told any tuning and jump tout. So a beginner class of bum ditty training is no help. But every other. Class I sit and the I structo says hammer on ditty bum ditty and I’m left guessing what string and trying and I’m cursing for every single lot wife every bar for every measure. It’s a total guess. Same thing with the jams. I go and I can listen to it’s fine. People at the beginner jams will even yell out the chords which I know but I bit I’m just guessing whether it’s right then or in a moment or where and I just play the chord or some other fretted note within the chord. I truly guess what chord is being played for every song all the time. I can memorize any song you give me. Not from tab flour from analyzing it note for note in YouTube and wringin.
That does me no good when a fiddle plays. I can barely even recognize a tune. A lot of the classssnstart with someone playing the fissile tune saying “isn’t that an incredible version by Tommy Jarrell and it literally sounds nothing like the plunky song I’ve learned. I sit on the outside of every jam beginner mostly and just sort of guess what might some next. And pretend to strum. I don’t want o actually strum because my guesses are probably wrong. And yes I completely know 1-4-5. In every tuning. Have them memorized up and down the nec and can find them in seconds but guessing which one comes next makes no sense. One one five fine one one five gets sung and that’s fine but the next part is different and I’m guessing again. There are people who say fine the melody but I’m guess f which notes are the melody. And if I listen to a song 25 times I’m guessing the melody 25 times. It doesn’t make any sense to me how these tunes are put together and I get it, it’s music but I have no formulae or road map and it all just aonnd like notes.

jsinjin - Posted - 06/14/2026:  09:42:21

I’m going to log off this forum for a while and rethink what I’m doing. It’s not he music or the banjo or the time or the practice, it’s me and a mental block of some sort. This frustration isn’t healthy for me and as Ken says there is still time and other creative things I can do like sketching or painting. I’m sure a lot of people pic this up easily but I am not and to be honest as everyone keeps pointing out. The music isn’t “energizing” or fun for me to listen to. I keep thinking. “I can’t wait until this song is over so I can go back to something productive for me like my lectures or articles.it is deudhery to listen to. That’s probably the biggest reason to shift thinking, the music style just isn’t fun any more than opera is fun.

pinenut - Posted - 06/14/2026:  09:55:41

Hi Ken (Old Hickory),

Thank you for articulating the purpose of a banjo; your description is detailed and gives the big picture from between the lines that is rarely (never) acknowledged.  This topic should be 'boilerplate' and the first thing printed in the instructional books or taught by "professional instructors".

Best, Kam

jsinjin - Posted - 06/14/2026:  10:16:42

that was a mess.  Was typing while walking.  

 

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

So here is how a weekend went at a big banjo conference camp. I can play the basic bum ditty before I attended.  After two years of lessons I'm good at that . Quite well also hammer-on drop thumb, pull off, alternate string pull off, and play every chord on G D C A and even some weird turnings. I can be told any tuning and jump to any chord immediately. So a beginner class of bum ditty training is no help. But every other Class I sit and the instructor says hammer on ditty bum ditty and if im not directly watching, I’m left guessing what string and trying to hit it while everyone else seems to know just by feel.  and I’m guessing for every single note of every bar for every measure. It’s a total guess. Same thing with the jams. I go and I can listen and the listening is fine. People at the beginner jams will even yell out the chords which I know but I but then  I’m just guessing whether it’s right then or in a moment or where and I just play the chord or some other fretted note within the chord. I truly guess what chord is being played for every song all the time. I can memorize any song you give me. Not from tab but from analyzing it note for note in YouTube and writing out my own version of sheet music and then memorizing it.  I have taken the advice and never use tab. I didn't even pick up any tab handouts at the classes I took this weekend.

All of that work does me no good when a fiddle plays, and heaven help with the mandolins playing so many notes I'm not even sure the timing signature has a term for the 64th notes they play.   I can barely even recognize a tune. A lot of the classes start with a song that is being taught and someone plays the fissile tune saying “isn’t that an incredible version by Tommy Jarrell" and it literally sounds nothing like the plunky song I’ve learned. I sit on the outside of every jam (beginner mostly) and just sort of guess what might some next. And pretend to strum. I don’t want to actually physically strum because my guesses are probably wrong. And yes I completely know 1-4-5. In every tuning. Have them memorized up and down the neck and can find them in seconds but guessing which one comes next makes no sense. One-one-five-five-one-one-five gets sung and that’s fine but the next part is different and I’m guessing again.   I took a class by Lucas Pool and he and the group were hearing the melody and humming and all I could think was (how thebhell did they do that so fast). There are people who say find the melody but I’m guessing which notes are the melody. And if I listen to a song 25 times I’m guessing the melody 25 times. It doesn’t make any sense to me how these tunes are put together and I get it, it’s music but I have no formulae or road map and it all just sounds like a bunch of notes and always does.   Believe me I want to do what yall are saying and just hear the melody but what I hear is loud fiddle and loud mandolin and many many notes and all my practice just falls flat because the songs sound nothing like what I've practiced 10,000 times.

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Nopix - Posted - 06/14/2026:  10:29:43

H@ll, very few people can hear an Oldtime fiddle tunes' melody. Let alone the chord changes. Sometimes there's only one monotonous drone.
I don't play Oldtime fiddle tunes much, and I play fiddle by trade. Don't even get me going on Tommy Jerol. Adios.
I'll be over here playing,
Country
Bluegrass
Jazz
Rock
Blues
Western
Fusion
Americana

Owen - Posted - 06/14/2026:  10:49:59

Tongue-in-cheek, IF you like painting, you could use the banjo as a canvas (?).  Last evening we were at an art exhibition put on by our yocal arts group/council.  One artist's submissions were paintings on the shafts of scythes.   I know one non-artiste who thought they looked pretty good.  

Edit: Although my singing (?) is apparently passable, I can't/don't/??  make a significant [banjo] contribution to the monthly jams we go to in the next town up/down the road.   It's $5 to get in, though I'm not sure if it's a fundraiser of sorts or they just don't want to lose money.  The lunch is easily worth $5, but the real kicker is that  "musicians" get to the food table before the spectators.   Works for me!!  

Edited by - Owen on 06/14/2026 11:00:51

pinenut - Posted - 06/14/2026:  10:57:29

quote:

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Originally posted by EEB

The OP highlights a sadly ongoing issue which is the lack of practical help and nurturing to bridge the gap between playing alone and playing with others. Of course it is possible to make this transition alone. There are strategies and aspects that can be practiced that will help. But most, to a greater or lesser extent, flounder unnecessarily. Typically these attempts get partial and intermittent 'windows' of joining a tune. A frustrating hit-and-miss experience of sessions.



But this transition - to full on-the-fly fluidity and independence - is so much more smoothly and efficiently achieved with nurturing and mentoring. I can say that with confidence because we do it. The simple reason being that the necessary skills required are acquired progressively in situ. They can be taught, but not in the transactional way that technique is taught. The acquisition process is different.

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Old Hickory (Ken Norkin) and you have just about completed "The Banjo Study Guide" book, providing the missing chapters between the Ch1introduction-Ch2banjoparts and Ch3rightlefthand-Ch4tablature, of every banjo book written...

If I could have read and understood this thread, with a tiny amount of useful in-person verification, twenty years ago; I could have shaved at least ten years off of the most painful parts of my total curve.  

Please write a book.

pinenut - Posted - 06/14/2026:  11:16:31

quote:

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Originally posted by Nopix

H@ll, very few people can hear an Oldtime fiddle tunes' melody. Let alone the chord changes. Sometimes there's only one monotonous drone.

I don't play Oldtime fiddle tunes much, and I play fiddle by trade. Don't even get me going on Tommy Jerol. Adios.

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An example of a traditional philosophical approach to playing a banjo:

The banjo plays the 'fool' to the fiddle's 'straight man'; it's our unspoken job to affirm and prance around/thru the fiddle (lead) while making the rhythm. 

Playing/hearing the exact melody and chords are sorta-negotiable as long as we support whatever the fiddle (lead) is doing...

Edited by - pinenut on 06/14/2026 11:17:23

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/14/2026:  11:53:01

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

. . . as Ken says there is still time and other creative things I can do like sketching or painting.

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I meant there is still time to learn an instrument the playing of which conforms to your assumptions about music: It can be played off of sheet music in which one note follows another in a linear melody. So knowing the names and locations of the notes is definitely required (if you play from music instead of tab). Yes, there's a bit more to it than that in adding expressiveness, dynamics and other musical elements. But if picking out a melody would satisfy your musical desires and interests, 4-string banjo or baritone uke would be an easy way to go. Baritone uke would also be easy on the fingers.

For what it's worth, 5-string banjo in either clawhammer or three-finger is not the best of instruments to begin on if one has to learn both the instrument and music at the same time. That's because of the nature of the instrument as I described at length above.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/14/2026:  11:57:52

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

So here is how a weekend went at a big banjo conference camp. 

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By the way: Good for you going to Midwest Banjo Camp!

I was signed up to go in 2021, then of course it didn't happen.

jsinjin - Posted - 06/14/2026:  12:48:56

m.youtube.com/watch?v=oMFR7kEj...1&pp=oAcB

Here is an example by my teacher and I can ask her for a tutorial on this tune and probably get her to at least teach me a basic version.

If I showed up at a jam and heard this at this speed for the first time, how would I pick out the melody and join in with no knowledge of the tune, beat, or rhythm? This is exactly how I feel at most jams. Kablam song with rapid fire jumps up and down the neck, complex interchanges with fiddle and mandolin and everyone nodding and smiling as they roll through the song while I try and guess the I IV V. And I’m not expecting to be able to play like this. It’s just that this is exactly what every jam I’ve attended feels like and I’m not sure what I’m learning by just sitting and trying to guess what comes next.

pinenut - Posted - 06/14/2026:  12:53:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

All of that work does me no good when a fiddle plays, and heaven help with the mandolins playing so many notes I'm not even sure the timing signature has a term for the 64th notes they play.   I can barely even recognize a tune. A lot of the classes start with a song that is being taught and someone plays the fissile tune saying “isn’t that an incredible version by Tommy Jarrell" and it literally sounds nothing like the plunky song I’ve learned.

I sit on the outside of every jam (beginner mostly) and just sort of guess what might some next. And pretend to strum. I don’t want to actually physically strum because my guesses are probably wrong.  This is a trap for adults that children are allowed and less concerned with when learning new things.  Doing is critical; mute it and cluck/stroke away like a human-banjo metronome.

And yes I completely know 1-4-5. In every tuning. Have them memorized up and down the neck and can find them in seconds 

but guessing which one comes next makes no sense. One-one-five-five-one-one-five gets sung and that’s fine but the next part is different and I’m guessing again.  Simplify the activity using just the first five frets, don't commit strongly any one chord, play softly and bounce between I and IV or V, etc. 

If the tune sounds high pitched, use mostly the first two strings;

if it sounds low or you want to follow the bass, use mostly the fourth string. 

Put your ear down to the head and Listen for resonance or sweetness (these are good) with the other instruments while you rotate chords.  It is very important to keep with the beat and emphasis of the group.  If played softly, the group will mostly mask whatever you are doing and off-notes are much less noticable than out-of-sync.  

I took a class by Lucas Pool and he and the group were hearing the melody and humming and all I could think was (how thebhell did they do that so fast).  There are people who say find the melody but I’m guessing which notes are the melody. And if I listen to a song 25 times I’m guessing the melody 25 times.  It doesn’t make any sense to me how these tunes are put together and I get it, it’s music but I have no formulae or road map and it all just sounds like a bunch of notes and always does.   It's a class for you, there is no pass/fail, the groups relative abilities are not pertanent.  (watch out for the adult-traps)

Believe me I want to do what yall are saying and just hear the melody but what I hear is loud fiddle and loud mandolin and many many notes  This is sorta-common and sometimes it's what they are doing or is the stage that they are at.  It's not necessarily you.

and all my practice just falls flat because the songs sound nothing like what I've practiced 10,000 times.  This is normal due to tune variants and the drift that happens when people forget the lyrics.  Change what is being practiced to match with the group, shift the group by (re)introducing the vocals/lyrics (good luck with that) or accept it and wait for it to work itself out.

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Owen - Posted - 06/14/2026:  12:58:23

Re. 1,4,5 .... I expect it's been mentioned before, but it sounds reasonable to me that learning 2-chord songs before 3-chord songs should facilitate the process [depending on what the ultimate goal is, I suppose].    In any event it should make "guessing" more accurate.

Edited by - Owen on 06/14/2026 13:03:39