GS - Posted - 06/04/2026:  01:45:01

Hi folks,



Basically, can anyone explain the flag, and how it affects the duration? I'm not referring to the rest, which I believe is an 1/8 note rest. BTW, it's in 3/4 time. I know how it should sound, but what would be the best way to count this measure (i.e. one and....) to help get it into my head?

Any other info regarding note duration, when not full (1/8, 1/4 etc), will be greatly appreciated. I've even seen a little dot next to the note and that just confuses me. Helpppp!

I hope my screenshot appears ok.



GS

Edited by - GS on 06/04/2026 01:54:05

Flag thing

 

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 06/04/2026:  02:20:53

The flag indicates an eighth note. So you have one quarter note, an eighth-note rest, then three eighth notes.

Per Wikipedia: "Eighth notes may be beamed together in groups . . . A single eighth note is always stemmed with a flag, while two or more are usually beamed in groups in instrumental music."

Usually you count a 3/4 measure as "1 and 2 and 3 and"

Slide the first eighth note (on the "and" of 2) into the second eighth note (on "3").

GS - Posted - 06/04/2026:  02:56:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

The flag indicates an eighth note. So you have one quarter note, an eighth-note rest, then three eighth notes.



Per Wikipedia: "Eighth notes may be beamed together in groups . . . A single eighth note is always stemmed with a flag, while two or more are usually beamed in groups in instrumental music."



Usually you count a 3/4 measure as "1 and 2 and 3 and"



Slide the first eighth note (on the "and" of 2) into the second eighth note (on "3").

---

That is SO helpful, thank you kindly for your reply. 

Have a fine day 

GS

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/04/2026:  04:29:18

One of the problems with tab is that people presume they can just jump right in.

I think it would be better for all if staring with the very basics of music from the beginning were normalized. Yeah, it is not “fun” but only needs to be done once.

But I guess the allure of the promises of instant gratification and “reading music is only for classical music” is much too delicious.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/04/2026:  05:21:50

Until the folk revival, banjo (or any instrument) instruction started like below.   Three very simple to understand pages of info.

 

GS - Posted - 06/04/2026:  06:11:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

One of the problems with tab is that people presume they can just jump right in.



I think it would be better for all if staring with the very basics of music from the beginning were normalized. Yeah, it is not “fun” but only needs to be done once.



But I guess the allure of the promises of instant gratification and “reading music is only for classical music” is much too delicious.

---

Hi Joel, 

I hear what you're saying re: tab. Having never played an instrument - I'm only a couple of years in now, I'm not a young fella and have no knowledge of music theory - tab was very helpful. I wasn't overly familiar with a lot of banjo songs - it's not such a big thing in the North East of England - so tab served its purpose. It still does. Only then, after becoming more proficient, did I want to learn more theory. It's a very dry subject, possibly a bit off putting / daunting, but necessary. For me, I don't think it was a case of "instant gratification"; it was more I'll leave it (theory) until later. Hopefully now I can spend a bit more time on this. I'll have a good look at the pages later.

GS

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/04/2026:  06:11:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

One of the problems with tab is that people presume they can just jump right in.



I think it would be better for all if staring with the very basics of music from the beginning were normalized. Yeah, it is not “fun” but only needs to be done once.



But I guess the allure of the promises of instant gratification and “reading music is only for classical music” is much too delicious.

Unfortunately, music education is at the bottom of the barrel in school these days. It was phased out of elementary schools in my area in the 1960s.

GS - Posted - 06/04/2026:  06:21:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

One of the problems with tab is that people presume they can just jump right in.



I think it would be better for all if staring with the very basics of music from the beginning were normalized. Yeah, it is not “fun” but only needs to be done once.



But I guess the allure of the promises of instant gratification and “reading music is only for classical music” is much too delicious.

Unfortunately, music education is at the bottom of the barrel in school these days. It was phased out of elementary schools in my area in the 1960s.

---

I honestly cannot remember anything other than what I'm going to write next about music lessons in my comprehensive school in the 1980s. I only remember some presumably gifted folks were taught violin - they even took them home - and I wasn't. I vaguely remember listening to Carnival of the Animals, Saint-Saëns, and for a young teenager where I lived it made no sense! I appreciate those things now, but I didn't then. Maybe the teachers were cr*p, too. 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/04/2026:  06:53:24

A big problem is that we go right to "studying music theory"-- BORING

"I don't know how to read music" is another thing people say. Nobody knows how to read music until they learn. That is why there are instruction books. Read the instructions, do the exercises and you can read music.

Reading the notes and finding them on the banjo, building the three basic chords for the natural keys, and understanding major and minor scales is introduced in order.

Studying music theory can come later, if you want. But basics of reading for your instrument is not "music theory" , per say. It is more difficult to "go back later" and learn this stuff-- trust me, I got caught in that trap.

The trap is conflating simple reading for an instrument with taking a course of music theory at a conservatory.

That said, I get that the banjo is a fOlK InSTruMent and, you know, ear and stuff. But learning and literacy (and knowing stuff) is pretty cool too.


When you were learning to read did you study Theoretical linguistics?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 06/04/2026:  07:17:38

My stock answer for rhythm questions:

Instead of the 200 year old technology of the metronome I would like to recommend an iPhone app to learn how to have perfect timing. In my years of teaching I've found of course that some people have a good sense of rhythm and some don't. The need to stay in time never goes away once you can actually play your instrument. Now most people with a good sense of timing don't even need to know about eighth notes as opposed to sixteenth notes, triplets, etc. They can just feel it. On the other hand I've had students who could play a whole song note for note but with bad timing and it just makes for a train wreck when others try to play along! Anyway getting back to this app, that by the way is called RHYTHM SIGHT READING $3.99, I've had great success with it fixing students timing problems. And the beauty of it is that at the same time it teaches how to read all different rhythm notation symbols that you could come across in tablature or standard notation. This also helps those that have a great sense of rhythm but can't play off of written music because they can't figure out these timing symbols, this app fixes that. The thing that is amazing is that it tests you on your accuracy with a visual report up to a tenth of a second. You can also learn to play ahead or behind the beat for that drive or laid back feel. Finally another thing, it has is infinite patience which I do not possess

Here's a way that gets you a tempo "body clock", so to speak. Go to the website below and start picking out songs that you are very familiar with and whose tempos are even numbers, I'll call them example songs. Either write them down are memorize them in numerical order. Once you have this list use it to gain a concrete knowledge of what each tempo sounds like in your mind. Finally use this to your advantage by first, knowing the tempo number of the song you want to kick off and second, hearing the tempo of the example song on the list in your new "body clock" mind.

EEB - Posted - 06/04/2026:  07:51:23

As others have already said, the ‘flag’ is standard music notation for an eighth note rest.
It is worth spending just a few minutes familiarising yourself with the notation for various length rests and the way that tied notes are played. A piece of music is as fundamentally the spaces in between the notes, as the notes themselves.

Initially, counting time may help you integrate the two.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/04/2026:  08:06:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by GS

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

One of the problems with tab is that people presume they can just jump right in.



I think it would be better for all if staring with the very basics of music from the beginning were normalized. Yeah, it is not “fun” but only needs to be done once.



But I guess the allure of the promises of instant gratification and “reading music is only for classical music” is much too delicious.

Unfortunately, music education is at the bottom of the barrel in school these days. It was phased out of elementary schools in my area in the 1960s.

---

I honestly cannot remember anything other than what I'm going to write next about music lessons in my comprehensive school in the 1980s. I only remember some presumably gifted folks were taught violin - they even took them home - and I wasn't. I vaguely remember listening to Carnival of the Animals, Saint-Saëns, and for a young teenager where I lived it made no sense! I appreciate those things now, but I didn't then. Maybe the teachers were cr*p, too. 

---

Human programming is fundamentally a self-taught, self-aware system that makes its own decisions. Every single human learns differently. Thankfully, the process does have commonalities that can be used, thus we have an educational system. That system isn't perfect by a long shot...but it gets above 50% of the kids a leg up.

I didn't know music would be such a big part of my life when I was 10yrs old. I was told I should play the Clarinet and be "in the band". I declined and went back to being a kid. It was another 10yrs before I started my Banjo journey.

Tablature still suffers demonization from many standard notation users. It is simply a different writing system, specifically useful for fretted instruments. As Joel knows, I read notation (I sight read for Piano, Violin, Viola & Cello) but I use Tab on my fretted instruments. It has always made more sense to me for playing on frets. If I have to analyze the music, suss out chords, intervals, or structure, I go back to notation. I feel lucky to have been able to watch the evolution of Tab from the front row, so to speak. Music software has significantly altered how Tab is written now and I sight-read it just like notation.

EEB - Posted - 06/04/2026:  08:16:57

I guess you know the song with the lyric "...they hung the jerk that invented work"? I'm a mild and peaceable chap but even I would be sorely tempted to consign whoever convinced people that basic music theory is difficult, to the same fate.

If you can relax into the realisation that notation is nothing more than a logical form of sound written down it will help you. I deliberately didn't use the word 'language' because much of language is abstract with no logical relationship to the real world object at all. The letters 'c', 'a' and 't' spell 'cat' but that lexical group has no logical association with a four-legged furry animal with a tail and whiskers, that miaows.

But music notation is an entirely logical and consistent system that does relate to, and represent time and pitch. 

 

Taking time out to learn how the five line music staff is your interval and pitch 'staircase' up and down. The 8 note scale and its relationship to those staff lines. How time signatures 4/4, 2/4, 3/4 and 6/8 group rhythm patterns within bar lines. And what the note symbols semi-quaver, quaver, crotchet, minim and semibreve and their related rest symbols look like and what their beat duration is. Those absolute basics will open up music to you and provide a foundation that you will then build upon.

Edited by - EEB on 06/04/2026 08:31:03

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/04/2026:  08:46:44

Additionally, values and ideas of important things change. I get it.

Anecdotally, our local high school just cut the band director position. This was not due to budget, but lack of enrollment. There were just not enough band members to justify a director. So the duty was rolled onto one with the choir.

I am careful to try and not be the guy in my front yard shaking my fist at the clouds.

That said, if one decides they want to make music, they should know this stuff.

Just like if one wants to be an engineer they should know how to read and write math.

Or if one wants to write fan fiction they should be able to write in their native or choosen language. (Imagine where we would be if all works of literature were taught and transmitted "by ear")

This can be applied to anything, I guess.

EEB - Posted - 06/04/2026:  08:48:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by GS

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

One of the problems with tab is that people presume they can just jump right in.



I think it would be better for all if staring with the very basics of music from the beginning were normalized. Yeah, it is not “fun” but only needs to be done once.



But I guess the allure of the promises of instant gratification and “reading music is only for classical music” is much too delicious.

Unfortunately, music education is at the bottom of the barrel in school these days. It was phased out of elementary schools in my area in the 1960s.

---

I honestly cannot remember anything other than what I'm going to write next about music lessons in my comprehensive school in the 1980s. I only remember some presumably gifted folks were taught violin - they even took them home - and I wasn't. I vaguely remember listening to Carnival of the Animals, Saint-Saëns, and for a young teenager where I lived it made no sense! I appreciate those things now, but I didn't then. Maybe the teachers were cr*p, too. 

---

Ok, if it might help, I'll share... sadly I did have a 'music' teacher who somehow turned the sensual joy of music into a deathly learn-by-rote ordeal and a means to humiliate . And no, that soulless and abusive experience did not 'stand me in good stead' in later years. I had to pick myself up, dust myself off and find my own way to the ability I was seeking despite that experience. I bought myself my first (secondhand) instrument when I left school. That's when things became fun.

I totally 'get' how school can put you off and undermine your youthful relationship to music. Appallingly for some people that early negative effect lasts their whole life. The good news is that you are capable, at any age, of overcoming that undeserved poor start.

Edited by - EEB on 06/04/2026 08:58:36

Tractor1 - Posted - 06/04/2026:  09:42:02

If you happen to -- already read a ruler in feet and inches--then ,reading feet and inches on a ruler--is knowledge that can help grasp the similar increments in music--my opinion I ask no agreement

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/04/2026:  10:36:47

mmuussiiccaall on the other hand, I would recommend a dedicated metronome. Good mechanical ones have that special feeling but are not that cheap. I like the Korg KDM-3, while it is $50, it sounds like a mechanical version and has all the counting options one would ever need (and a headphone jack).

The reason? I leave my phone in the other room (downstairs) when I practice banjo. I don't want that distraction near me. For that short half hour to a couple of hours I can do without notifications, texts, advertisements, and wherever other flashing bell that was designed by scientists to trigger my dopamine.


A course of study, such as the Mel Bay Banjo Method by Frank Bradbury, (or any of the others I've scanned and are free to download) when used, page by page, will introduce note values, counting, and time signatures in a orderly and progressive manner.

All the focus on learning counting can be done with banjo in lap. Training directly related to the desired outcome.

pinenut - Posted - 06/04/2026:  11:14:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

If you happen to -- already read a ruler in feet and inches--then ,reading feet and inches on a ruler--is knowledge that can help grasp the similar increments in music--my opinion I ask no agreement

---

Hi Tom,

This is an interesting pneumonic for attaching written music to a banjo, maybe?  

Would you flesh the method/concept out with specific mechanics for me?

Much appreciated, Kam

Edited by - pinenut on 06/04/2026 11:28:57

Tractor1 - Posted - 06/04/2026:  12:30:59

look at an inch divided in 16ths--an eighth note is 2 -16ths--a dotted eighth would be 3 16ths--a quarter would be 4 -16ths or of course 2 eighths--a dotted quarter would be three eighths--etc.--a measure of music -- is cut with the same increments --Just the way I see it and being a long time user of tape measures I kinda looked at it that way --as far as apply to banjo that comes afterwards so it makes no difference--

my opinion I ask no agreement

Edited by - Tractor1 on 06/04/2026 12:33:46

banjered - Posted - 06/04/2026:  14:47:08

Curiosity got to me so I spent two hours one evening learning the basics of musical notation. I find it handy for zeroing in on certain notes/measures, especially for songs where tab is often not available. At this point I can take a page of notation for a song I never have heard and convert it into banjo tab if I want to. Usually I will listen to several versions of a tune or song and bend it to the banjo, my preferences, and limitations. Beyond timing is what I call "flow" which is making one measure flow smoothly into the next which for me is usually dropping a quick note, gotta keep on that beat! banjered

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 06/04/2026:  15:03:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

mmuussiiccaall on the other hand, I would recommend a dedicated metronome. Good mechanical ones have that special feeling but are not that cheap. I like the Korg KDM-3, while it is $50, it sounds like a mechanical version and has all the counting options one would ever need (and a headphone jack).



The reason? I leave my phone in the other room (downstairs) when I practice banjo. I don't want that distraction near me. For that short half hour to a couple of hours I can do without notifications, texts, advertisements, and wherever other flashing bell that was designed by scientists to trigger my dopamine.





A course of study, such as the Mel Bay Banjo Method by Frank Bradbury, (or any of the others I've scanned and are free to download) when used, page by page, will introduce note values, counting, and time signatures in a orderly and progressive manner.



All the focus on learning counting can be done with banjo in lap. Training directly related to the desired outcome.

---

Yes Joel I can relate, the app's advantage is that it shows timing mistakes and teaches how to visualy read rhythm notation.

EEB - Posted - 06/04/2026:  15:26:45

An example of how simple music theory frees us up as a musician is understanding the chromatic scale and the consistent but ‘uneven’ whole step/half-step interval template that applies to the pattern or structure of every major scale.



That simple bit of theory enables us to figure out any major scale from its root note simply by applying the interval template to pick the relevant scale notes from the chromatic scale. F# major scale? No problem at all!



Time to learn? 30 minutes max.

Edited by - EEB on 06/04/2026 15:36:55

GS - Posted - 06/05/2026:  01:33:14

Thanks to you all for your input on this subject, some interesting reading. Hopefully, it'll help others too.
GS

EEB - Posted - 06/05/2026:  02:31:12

I just re-read your OP and spotted that you also asked about that dot.



A dotted note simply indicates that note gains an additional 50% of its assigned duration e.g. a dotted eighth note (quaver) sounds for an additional sixteenth of a beat.



If we listen to audio of that notation it’s so easy to hear. Dotted rhythm adds syncopation. Again, consistent and logical when you know what sound change that dot is indicating.

Edited by - EEB on 06/05/2026 02:38:34

GS - Posted - 06/05/2026:  03:22:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by EEB

I just re-read your OP and spotted that you also asked about that dot.



A dotted note simply indicates that note gains an additional 50% of its assigned duration e.g. a dotted eighth note (quaver) sounds for an additional sixteenth of a beat.



If we listen to audio of that notation it’s so easy to hear. Dotted rhythm adds syncopation. Again, consistent and logical when you know what sound change that dot is indicating.

---

Yeah, EEB, the dot. I read that on the pages, provided by Joel Hooks, so thanks to you for responding, too. It's a lot for my tiny brain to take in! 

I've listened to your clips - fine playing, indeed. I may get around to clawhammer one day. I kind of prefer two finger thumb lead, though, and some three finger - Scruggs - style. 

Have a good day

GS

EEB - Posted - 06/05/2026:  03:30:34

Alongside even very basic knowledge of music notation, I’ve found the free version of MuseScore really useful. In fact in our research it is indispensable.

With a bit of patience notation can be easily transcribed (copied) from sheet music into the blank score in the app. Bingo - you can now hear what that tune sounds like. And like any music when you can hear it and whistle it, that tune becomes hugely easier for you to pick up.
The in-built notation-audio relationship that this and other similar apps offer, completely bypasses the off-putting experience of staring blankly at vintage sheet music and wondering how to access it on your banjo.

EEB - Posted - 06/05/2026:  03:40:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by GS

quote:

---

Originally posted by EEB

I just re-read your OP and spotted that you also asked about that dot.



A dotted note simply indicates that note gains an additional 50% of its assigned duration e.g. a dotted eighth note (quaver) sounds for an additional sixteenth of a beat.



If we listen to audio of that notation it’s so easy to hear. Dotted rhythm adds syncopation. Again, consistent and logical when you know what sound change that dot is indicating.

---

Yeah, EEB, the dot. I read that on the pages, provided by Joel Hooks, so thanks to you for responding, too. It's a lot for my tiny brain to take in! 

I've listened to your clips - fine playing, indeed. I may get around to clawhammer one day. I kind of prefer two finger thumb lead, though, and some three finger - Scruggs - style. 

Have a good day

GS

---

I'd hate to confuse or deceive so being 100% open and upfront,  I can say that I've hardly ever used standard notation in my clawhammer playing. The only exception is where the only source that I can find for an OT tune is a music score for fiddle. Then I will use it to convert/arrange that fiddle notation for banjo.

I also play fingerstyle. That is where knowledge of standard notation and reading music becomes pretty much essential.

Just keep asking questions; as you can see in response to your post there is willing help here for the asking.

Have fun!

Edited by - EEB on 06/05/2026 03:42:20

banjoak - Posted - 06/05/2026:  14:15:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by GS

Hi folks,



Basically, can anyone explain the flag, and how it affects the duration? I'm not referring to the rest, which I believe is an 1/8 note rest. BTW, it's in 3/4 time. I know how it should sound, but what would be the best way to count this measure (i.e. one and....) to help get it into my head?

Any other info regarding note duration, when not full (1/8, 1/4 etc), will be greatly appreciated. I've even seen a little dot next to the note and that just confuses me. Helpppp!

I hope my screenshot appears ok.



GS

---

"but what would be the best way to count this measure (i.e. one and....) to help get it into my head?"

One - - and three and. 

The time domain (as duration/timing or rhythm) is often the aspect to reading that folks struggle. The tab vs notation is moot to that, as it uses the the same written symbolism for that. The written can seem a bit abstract in what it's representing.

One way to approach it (before get to written; symbol) starts with idea of getting a sense of underlying grid, of steady beat and meter, and how feel of rhythm and what you play, when; lines up to that grid.

Meter is the feel of grouping of beat. In this example, the meter has underlying group of 3, feel of 3 to the meter; 1 2 3 / 1 2 3 / 1 2 3... and so on. The beat also has division; in half gives 1 & 2 & 3 &. and division in half again gives 1e&a2e&a3e&a. (or can use other mnemonic)

That's the underlying is imagined grid (in this example); what gets played and sounded, fit's on top of that.

So PDF example would sound as 1 - - & 3 &.

---------

Then, the written is just addressing how to represent that idea.

info regarding note duration, when not full (1/8, 1/4 etc),

Might be easier to start from perspective of representing smaller eighth note unit, each of 1 & 2 & 3 &... as 6 units of eighth notes. Thus a quarter note represents 2 units. This is what the PDF in OP shows, the first note on a stem (no flag), represents 2 eighth note units (One &)... followed by then 4 eighth note values... where rest marks beat "two" (silent), then play/sound "and three and"

I've even seen a little dot next to the note and that just confuses me.

It represents one and a half of the value, thus a dotted quarter is 3 eighth note units.

---------

FWIW, as in this example, I think it helps in exercise of writing out just various imagined rhythm... asking how would represent that; IMO makes reading a bit less confusing. There are also many free computer programs, (notation or piano roll grid) that you can write and have it play back MIDI to see if it matches what you intended.

Edited by - banjoak on 06/05/2026 14:24:08