Cap - Posted - 04/16/2026:  06:35:43

The "Rule of Three": Psychology suggests that our brains are hardwired to notice, process, and recall patterns, and three is the minimum to form a recognizable pattern. Don Reno recalled Snuffy Jenkins numbering his index to middle fingers 1,2 3. Told him to "Just keep doing it over and over. Like the Glen Miller tune in the Mood. Don had the finest forward Roll. Listen to the original Dueling Banjos with Arther Smith. I guess Snuffy had invented the first fingerstyle Banjo teaching method. We don't know what he told Earl to get him started. In Ralph Stanleys book he recalls How Earl taught him the Forward roll. That is where it all begins.

csacwp - Posted - 04/16/2026:  06:47:59

The first fingerstyle banjo method was published about 100 years before Snuffy and Earl...

trapdoor2 - Posted - 04/16/2026:  06:49:51

It's where it began again. Three finger was documented in the 1850s. People were playing (and publishing) high complexity fingerstyle by the 1880s...but building tunes around rolls took Earl.

chuckv97 - Posted - 04/16/2026:  07:27:42

Just my take on it but I figure the rural banjo players wanted to emulate the “drive” of a good fiddler and the forward roll fit the bill. Alan Munde mentions the f roll giving bluegrass music its drive.

Owen - Posted - 04/16/2026:  07:29:08

Huh??  Does this mean that "eventually" would come sooner/easier had I started with the forward roll rather than 3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/3,2,4,1/etc./etc.?

[I'm not complaining or looking for a referral to a teacher/program/method, just putting some of my c'est la vie drivel out there.   ]

Isn't A,B,A,B,A,B, etc. a recognizable pattern?  [Inquiring minds want to know!]

Nopix - Posted - 04/16/2026:  08:19:04

What are we up to Owen?
ABABAB, is binary like ones and zeros, no?
Now given 8 ones and/or zeros, what's the highest number that can be created?

I think three finger roll started by someone drumming their fingers on a table. Then some criminal slid a banjer under those fingers.

Owen - Posted - 04/16/2026:  08:45:16

Q: What am I up to?         A: ^^ "drivel."  

I was just thinking back to when my wife and I team-taught K/JK on the fly-in reserves.  IIRC we called A,B,A,B,A,B, etc. a pattern. I'd never forgive myself IF there's a bunch of young adults that have hit the wall / "peaked early" because of something I'd/we'd done.  My saving grace (?) could be that she was the lead teacher ... an arrangement that we came up with and was approved by admin., though there was no adjustment in pay. 

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 04/16/2026:  08:50:24

I agree. The TIMTIMTIMTIMTIM . . . is the sine qua non of bluegrass banjo. A lot of times when I'm seeing someone who doesn't quite "have it," I feel like it can attributed to the lack of this pattern.

TITM/square/alternating thumb is useful, but it won't get you that classic bluegrass banjo sound if used too much. Ralph Stanley reportedly didn't use it at all. It's great in small portions but requires more thumb movement than the forward roll and limits your speed, IMHO. Of course Earl could rip off square roll patterns at high tempos (cf. live versions of Cripple Creek and Cumberland Gap), but usually relied on the bread-and-butter TIMTIMTIM and forward-reverse pattern at higher speeds.

TITM is symmetrical and fits cleanly within a measure, so it lends itself to being taught in workshops, and is great for slow to medium vocal accompaniment, but I think it should be reserved until the student has got the forward roll pattern down.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 04/16/2026:  08:50:53

Even Earl and Don always said they picked up the 3 finger rolling style from pickers like Snuffy Jenkins and Wade Mainer (granted he was mostly a 2 finger picker)

Nobody invents anything in art, they just build upon what came before.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/16/2026:  09:25:16

Some of the magic of the forward roll is in the rotation of 3 against 4.

RB-1 - Posted - 04/16/2026:  09:34:12

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Some of the magic of the forward roll is in the rotation of 3 against 4.

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Finally someone getting it right! 

123123 etc. with the emphasis always on 1 would result in a waltz.

It's all in the forward rotation of the pulse.

Eric A - Posted - 04/16/2026:  16:20:25

Forward roll just sounds and feels faster than it really is. Melody notes often come just a bit ahead of where your ear is expecting them. It feels like you are pushing the beat. But in reality, you are on the same time as everybody else in the band. It's magic, and it's the magic of bluegrass.

Cap - Posted - 04/17/2026:  06:05:01

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

The first fingerstyle banjo method was published about 100 years before Snuffy and Earl...

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Can you provide a visual link so we can see it ,who published it and what was it called. I'm Curious

csacwp - Posted - 04/17/2026:  06:48:00

quote:

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Originally posted by Cap

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

The first fingerstyle banjo method was published about 100 years before Snuffy and Earl...

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Can you provide a visual link so we can see it ,who published it and what was it called. I'm Curious

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Sure, here you go:  archive.org/details/briggs-ban.../mode/1up

The hundreds of subsequent method books published between 1858 and 1930 get far more elaborate. For example, here is an excellent one from 1886:

archive.org/details/FrankB.Con...njoMethod

tonygo - Posted - 04/17/2026:  08:57:37

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

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Originally posted by Cap

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

The first fingerstyle banjo method was published about 100 years before Snuffy and Earl...

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Can you provide a visual link so we can see it ,who published it and what was it called. I'm Curious

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Sure, here you go:  archive.org/details/briggs-ban.../mode/1up

 

The hundreds of subsequent method books published between 1858 and 1930 get far more elaborate. For example, here is an excellent one from 1886:

archive.org/details/FrankB.Con...njoMethod

 

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I have worked thru two of Jos. Weidlich's books.  One on Converse and one on Briggs. They are both done in tab and all of the tabs can be played as downstroke or finger style.  I use 3 fingers as I started with Scruggs 50 yrs ago and can do it easier than 2 fingers. My point is that if you want to try some old banjo music using your fingers Weidlichs books on Minstrel Banjo is easy, accessible and quick.

Cap - Posted - 04/18/2026:  05:26:37

Anything to add about finger patterns or rolls. ? Like the Forward Roll?

Edited by - Cap on 04/18/2026 05:29:55

csacwp - Posted - 04/18/2026:  06:32:06

quote:

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Originally posted by Cap

Anything to add about finger patterns or rolls. ? Like the Forward Roll?

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All of those patterns are used historical (fingerstyle) banjo playing, but players back then didn't pigeonhole themselves by thinking in terms of patterns. Rather, they learned to play the notes necessary for the music, as they appeared on the page.

On the other hand, stroke style (the precursor to clawhammer) was taught using patterns or "combinations."

Edited by - csacwp on 04/18/2026 06:33:47

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/18/2026:  13:52:47

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

quote:

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Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Some of the magic of the forward roll is in the rotation of 3 against 4.

---

Finally someone getting it right! 

123123 etc. with the emphasis always on 1 would result in a waltz.

It's all in the forward rotation of the pulse.

---

I have a problem with that somrtimes, getting that 1,2 in there to bring it into 4/4 time. I have to really concentrate to make the forward roll work with some songs.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/18/2026:  14:06:35

I had one student that could not get the forward roll right. He would always end up with a 123 123 or a triplet pattern and his timing was off considerably. After several lessons, he finally learned to COUNT !! I worked with him to think 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & rather than 123 123 123. He finally got it through his brain that he wasn't playing triplets at all. When the light finally came on, then he continued on and didn't have any more problems like that.

chuckv97 - Posted - 04/18/2026:  14:07:45

Sensing the underlying beat is tricky at first when rolling the forward roll continuously,,it’s fragmented when crossing the bar line. Start by playing 4 forward rolls (beginning with thumb) followed by a square roll ,, that fits into 2 measures and will get you used to crossing the bar line partway through the forward roll.

TIMTIMTIMTIMTITM

Edited by - chuckv97 on 04/18/2026 14:16:08

RB-1 - Posted - 04/18/2026:  14:22:15

The rotating timing becomes even more obvious when (for exercise purpose) dividing your counting up into even smaller chunks:

1-a-and-a-2-a-and-a-3-a-and-a-4-a-and-a 1-a-and....

If 1 is the thumb, 2 will be the index and 3 the middle and 4 the thumb again.

Make sure emphasising the numbers and see what happens....

The next 1 will be the index and as such the pulse is shifting forward along your fingers, staying in line with the rhythm.

There is a way of syncopating that Earl often used, where he kept the emphasis on the same finger ( often the index) that produces an internal counter rhythm.

But get your clockwork ticking to the beat first....

RB-1 - Posted - 04/18/2026:  14:36:34

quote:

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Sensing the underlying beat is tricky at first when rolling the forward roll continuously,,it’s fragmented when crossing the bar line. Start by playing 4 forward rolls (beginning with thumb) followed by a square roll ,, that fits into 2 measures and will get you used to crossing the bar line partway through the forward roll.

TIMTIMTIMTIMTITM

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My solution would be: TIMTIMTIMTIMTIMI

Doggit - Posted - 04/25/2026:  04:05:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Nopix

What are we up to Owen?

ABABAB, is binary like ones and zeros, no?

Now given 8 ones and/or zeros, what's the highest number that can be created?



I think three finger roll started by someone drumming their fingers on a table. Then some criminal slid a banjer under those fingers.

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Doggit - Posted - 04/25/2026:  04:06:40

That's how I practice my rolls, when I'm without my banja!

Fathand - Posted - 04/25/2026:  16:43:03

quote:

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Originally posted by Owen

Huh??  Does this mean that "eventuc.?

Isn't A,B,A,B,A,B, etc. a recognizable pattern?  [Inquiring minds want to know!]

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A,B,A,B,A,B is a recognizable pattern because you repeated A,B three times, fulfilling the requirement to establish a pattern.

Edited by - Fathand on 04/25/2026 16:44:06