rkdjones - Posted - 04/05/2026:  09:41:46

I've only gone to a couple OT jam sessions, and they weren't particularly well directed. But it got me thinking about how to make a positive contribution to the group. OT sessions around here seem to be dominated by fiddlers. I think rhythm sections are kind of weak. Maybe there is no solid guitar accompaniment, and the banjos are kind of dancing around in the background. In general, I think the bass and drums are really useful in a jam sessions, something in a lower register to cut through the fiddles and keep the rhythm. A percussion instrument is common in Celtic sessions, but not American OT.

I'm interested in all kinds of 4-string instruments (I'm including the 5-string in that group). But I don't play the bass. If you are an OT sessions player, what would you like to see, and hear, in a OT session?

EEB - Posted - 04/05/2026:  11:17:59

A small session with a balance of instruments is ideal. But the most important thing to do is listen and be aware. Often people just recognise the tune and play their 'template' version on autopilot. In a large session 20 instruments doing that can be hard on the ears, and destroys the space to respond and interract.



What can you contribute? In OT sessions I consider myself primarily a rhythm element. A basic tip that was given to me, and holds good, is don’t try and replicate what the fiddle is playing. Let the fiddle(s) carry the full melody. Play to the banjo's strengths - we can simplify the melody line and accentuate the rhythmic possibilities. Occasional skip notes are useful for adding extra syncopation. But have a sensitive ear; the aim is to compliment rather than stand out.

Edited by - EEB on 04/05/2026 11:28:59

Rusty - Posted - 04/05/2026:  11:24:53

Fiddles rule the roost so to speak, I play fiddle and banjo along with guitar. It depends on my mood which I play.
Sometimes a bass will join but rarely unless it is an OT festival. Drums are not a part of OT jams normally.

banjered - Posted - 04/05/2026:  11:58:13

First do no harm! Keep it quiet and in the back ground if you do not know or are just learning the tune, i.e.don't step on the fiddler's musical toes. Listening and then adapting to what is being played is an art form and skill., something I am mediocre to average at but at least I know that. In larger jams with multiple "versions" being played I tend to be much simpler, more chordal to fit in with the various versions better, and as said above, keep the rhythm because the banjo is ( or can be ) as good at rhythm as any guitar. And did I say listen.....? banjered

Barnacle Joe - Posted - 04/05/2026:  12:13:23

I think you've already described the problem (as you see it) and the solution. The sessions weren't well directed. Rhythm section is weak. There's no bass & drums, but you think they'd be useful.

Just be the rhythm section. Bum-ditty the chords, alternate the two lower strings (some), and do little else. Go ahead and do it loud. Deviate from the back-up bum-ditty very-very sparingly (such as walking up and down from one root note to another on the chord-change, or a little fill between seventh and eighth measures). Be the rhythm section you think they need (and then gets some feedback), simple and regular and consistent and loud enough to drive the others without overpowering them.

For bonus points, put some thicker strings on your banjo (or a banjo, if you have 2+), like Deering's Julia Belle strings. Then you can get that fourth string down to A or even G and stay further out of the sonic range of the fiddlers.

martyjoe - Posted - 04/05/2026:  12:14:19

Forget about drums ! And don’t make too many assumptions that drums are a thing with Irish sessions. More often than not the bodhran players in Irish sessions are a pain in the arse. We all like to good percussion player and a good player of a drum, spoons, bones and so on can add to lot to a session but the reality is that they are not required. This whole bodhran thing started in the 60’s and was introduced by composer Sean O Rieada. Prior to that it was never heard of in Irish music. There is plenty of rhythm in all kinds of western folk music that is carried by melody instruments particularly the banjo and fiddle. No need for drum, no need for bass no need for guitar even but it’s nice to have them if they’re played well.

Boblamoy - Posted - 04/05/2026:  12:52:55

Since you mention interest in all 4 stringed instruments, how about a tenor banjo tuned GDAE? No need to re tune for different keys. Can play melody or chords. If you prefer tabs, mandolin tabs are available for most fiddle tunes.
Whatever you play, go to the jam to have fun.

writerrad - Posted - 04/05/2026:  13:52:22

The questions asked by the poster who started this are good.  They are the problems that a rational person who seeks to play music properly would have with most old time jams.  I do know several excellent old time music fiddlers, banjoists, and guitarists who simply refuse to participate in these jams, who participate instead in private gatherings of experienced players, who work out tunes, and figure out what they are going to do together,

Most old time jam sessions are run by people who have never ever been in actual old time revivalist band, who have never sat down and discussed how a tune is to be played with experienced players.  They often have no thinking of how a tune is to be played.   Tthey do not do what serious players of any kind would do if they were putting on an actual performance or play for a dance..

At least the jams that I have been to in my local area in Florida they are often composed of people who have NEVER EVER played in an actual old time band, in a situation where a concert was involved, let alone for a dance, what we assume is the chief occasions that old time music of this type was actually played,

As you say little attention is played to rhythm.  There is a bunch of people who are violinists who call themselves fiddlers, often dominating things with little knowledge about what rhythm playing is required/  Worse, people whose idea of rhythm comes from folk or rock, anything but old time play the guitar.   

When i have had the opportunity to play with veteran old time players on the other hand, no one ever says let's play "Ida Red."  Instead, a discussion can take place about which of many versions and approaches to Ida Red is being asked for.   There is a discussion at what tempo the tune will be played in and a discussion of who will play the lead.  When I played with a working band, we would even discuss where each player could sit so that the lead players could get the rhythm played by the guitar and the banjo..

Many guitar and banjo players who come to old time "jams" of this type have not had much instruction of thinking about how to play their instruments in an old time band,   Instead they go to teachers or online lessons that orient them to playing lead versions of old time tunes, lead flat pick guitar versions, or lead banjo versions of these tunes, rather than how to play rhythm and how to support an instrument taking a lead.  They learn skills that are useless since often the fiddle or mandolin or voice is playing the lead.  They do not learn how to keep the rhythm going on their instrument.  Lead players do not learn what to do when someone is singing.

Guitarists often are seeking to emulate lead versions of tunes fiddle tunes that are originate in bluegrass flat picking, really play a guitar like one would play a mandolin.   Very few guitarists understand the task of playing rhythm, and providing the bass in old time, and that the basic chord change bass is on them.  Playing guitar properly in old time is a very unselfish and unflashy act where you are providing the bottom for the higher pitched banjos and fiddle to ride on, the base for the vocals,  you are providing the changes.   You are not there to play melody.  Even though I come to jams to build up my banjo skills, I often have to put down my banjo and pick up my Martin dred, because there is no rhythm driving things.

Unfortunately, most people who go to get lessons on either banjo or guitar get a teacher who teaches them to play lead versions of the tune, rather than how to support the rhythm of an entire ensemble.  I was lucky when I took banjo lessons that my teacher the great Bob Murphy of South Florida had a wife who played great guitar who was often home when I took my lessons with him 30 years ago.  When he thought I was up to snuff on the banjo, he would ask his wife to come in and back up his fiddle and my banjo and I learned to keep time and to fill it.  

Jjams are often too big for competent playing.   A good string band usually has from three to five members.  What do you do when 10 people or more show up?   You have to do invent things that were NOT done by people when old time music was extant living music.  Worse is when they bring in basses that were never part of old time music bands, largely because the kind of people who played old time music did not have motor vehicles to take a bass around. with in the times the music was extant.

Unfortunately, unless you have the commitment of people to form a band,  and practice regularly together, to discuss how they will play, and to work things out,  you are going to have the problems that are posed here. 

The problem is that for many people playing in such jams is the only opportunity to play with others.   Worse, is that there are things one can do that seem fabulous in such jams that person doing them would be shot playing with good old time musicians in a competent band,  I got back into old time music in the early 2000s, and was chiefly a guitar player,  I could punch out loud lead and bass rhythm stuff that worked really well in a gang of 10,15,20 people playing at a jam especially at a festival or banjo camp.  This was all stuff that any competent band mate would want me kicked out of an old time band that was serious.

I have no solution.  Just have to say the question and problems of the person who launched this thread are legitimate and speak to built in problems of old time jams I have experienced at festivals, in local communities, at banjo camps and old time weekends, across the United States and in England and Germany,

Edited by - writerrad on 04/05/2026 14:12:20

writerrad - Posted - 04/05/2026:  14:16:22

quote:great post

---

Originally posted by Barnacle Joe

I think you've already described the problem (as you see it) and the solution. The sessions weren't well directed. Rhythm section is weak. There's no bass & drums, but you think they'd be useful.



Just be the rhythm section. Bum-ditty the chords, alternate the two lower strings (some), and do little else. Go ahead and do it loud. Deviate from the back-up bum-ditty very-very sparingly (such as walking up and down from one root note to another on the chord-change, or a little fill between seventh and eighth measures). Be the rhythm section you think they need (and then gets some feedback), simple and regular and consistent and loud enough to drive the others without overpowering them.



For bonus points, put some thicker strings on your banjo (or a banjo, if you have 2+), like Deering's Julia Belle strings. Then you can get that fourth string down to A or even G and stay further out of the sonic range of the fiddlers.

---

writerrad - Posted - 04/05/2026:  14:20:50

"Often people just recognise the tune and play their 'template' version on autopilot. In a large session 20 instruments doing that can be hard on the ears, and destroys the space to respond and interract."

That is the problem.  The music was NOT designed to be played by 20 people playing together.  The music was not designed to be played banjo players guitar players an fiddlers all trying to play the lead melody of a tune at the same time.  The music is best played by the players deciding to play each tune a definite and known way.

You cannot really play proper old time music as you would in a real band as you would playing for a dance or for a recording a concert or a class, with 20 people who have not discussed how the tune will be played and have not agreed upon what each instrument will contribute.  

writerrad - Posted - 04/05/2026:  14:29:36

The other problem is anyone who is seriously into old time music is concerned with very specific versions of each tune. My focus has been very largely on Black old time musicians, Charlie Poole, and modal players. Most good players are after one particular vision or version of a song, or creating their own. The jams tend to smother such things, or worse tend to be dominated by people who have one size fits all. People dont discuss the particular way they want to play it.

There is a real division between people who think old time is one big stew, and people who are really immesed in one or another particular regional or historical style. There is no generic way to play old Joe Clark or Cripple Creek, or iother tunes that are assumed to be common, I have about 20 different version of John Henry on my hard disk, and enjoy each, but I am horrified that if I call that tune at the local jam, almost nobody even knows that.

The more I go to these threads like this one launched by an intelligent person who goes to an old time jam and has problems, the more I think the problem is really not with the person raising the issue but with how these jams function and how old time revivalist music functions these days,

Thanks

EEB - Posted - 04/05/2026:  14:44:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

The other problem is anyone who is seriously into old time music is concerned with very specific versions of each tune. My focus has been very largely on Black old time musicians, Charlie Poole, and modal players. Most good players are after one particular vision or version of a song, or creating their own. The jams tend to smother such things, or worse tend to be dominated by people who have one size fits all. People dont discuss the particular way they want to play it.



There is a real division between people who think old time is one big stew, and people who are really immesed in one or another particular regional or historical style. There is no generic way to play old Joe Clark or Cripple Creek, or iother tunes that are assumed to be common, I have about 20 different version of John Henry on my hard disk, and enjoy each, but I am horrified that if I call that tune at the local jam, almost nobody even knows that.



The more I go to these threads like this one launched by an intelligent person who goes to an old time jam and has problems, the more I think the problem is really not with the person raising the issue but with how these jams function and how old time revivalist music functions these days,



Thanks

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Today we are all culturally influenced to expect 'quick fixes' by right. Whereas musically,  balance and understanding develop at a more natural pace from intimacy and familiarity; often through playing with the same few musician friends over a long time. That relationship is a quiet joy in itself.

Edited by - EEB on 04/05/2026 14:46:34

writerrad - Posted - 04/05/2026:  16:06:38

quote:

---

more natural pace from intimacy and familiarity; often through playing with the same few musician friends over a long time. That relationship is a quiet joy in itself.

Thanks.  Yes,  when I read that,  I can think back to some of the most wonderful times I have had playing old time music, which is often playing over someone's house or on the steps of a cabin at a banjo camp or old time festival, or even on stage at the Smithsonian folk festival, where it is just me really playing along with a good fiddler or behind a singer.

It certainly does help to play with the same people which is also the norm of this music.  People I know who knew Joe and Odell Thompson a Black fiddler and his cousin a banjo and guitar player who knew them as old men, but they had been playing music together since they were kids back int he early 30s in family band or just picking together after the old time dances in their part of North Carolina ended in the late 40s.  They each had little gestures or nudges they understood about picking up the pace or slowing it down,

I do not think the natural way to play old time music is with more than 3 or 4 people, 5 at the most.   I dont see how player new to the music would have anything happen to him but be overwhelmed or led to do terrible things.   Worse is there is not much thought or knowledge of the proper way of playing rhythm to support the whole thing, especially on the guitar.   Worst is people never discuss how they are going to play something,   

From 2010 to about 2016 I occaisionally played gigs with NYC's Ebony Hillbillies, a group really composed of professional Black jazz and RB musicians who played old time music where they could, while their banjoist was unable to travel to gigs.   They were all pros, the bssist has won grammies as a song writer and as a producer of albums and had recorded with John Coltrane, the fiddler had been in the Saturday Night Live band, the female singer and percussionist hd a conservatory degree but had also been a backup singer and dancer for James Brown.  I was the only pure old time musician int he bunch.  

They rehearsed even though they played these gigs regularly for years,.  They would even organize exactly where everyone would sit so the musicians who needed to hear each other were seated properly or if they was a monitor in the howplace, who got whose feed.  They never assumed how a tune would be played but discussed it even though they had been playing together for about 10 years,  There was no assumption that you played any song some generic way,

rkdjones - Posted - 04/05/2026:  18:19:37

Thanks for all the comments. I feel somewhat vindicated, like it isn't just me. Fortunately, I have found a bluegrass slow jam session that is very well run and I will keep looking for an OT group where I can add some value. I don't need to shine, I just want to be part of a good team.

banjered - Posted - 04/05/2026:  19:27:48

I appreciate everything Tony said about creating quality old time music, all true. However I'd still like to put in a few good words for jams as scattered as they might be. The early jams I went to I got to hear really high quality musicianship, hear tunes that made me want to learn them, heard what a really good banjo and banjo player sounds like, realized the importance of good timing/rhythm. It was the first chance I ever had to see and hear old time music up close and it inspired me to keep on learning. Yeah since then there have been a few large jams that were rough on the ears but even then there is usually something good I can take away from them, if nothing else, the musical camaraderie. I enjoy playing/singing songs/tunes solo at the farmer's market and that will probably as far as I will ever get accomplishment wise but that is OK. Small jams large jams I've learned to enjoy it all for the most part. Follow your musical bliss whatever that happens to be. banjered

Rusty - Posted - 04/05/2026:  19:50:16

If you want an amazing jam experience go to Clifftop in August!

John Yerxa - Posted - 04/05/2026:  20:23:33

rkdjones



Robert



You may be onto this, but some very good players are involved - check it out if you haven't.



facebook.com/groups/oldtimeseattle/

Bottom line is that when people get to be good rhythm players, they start playing fiddle!

Edited by - John Yerxa on 04/05/2026 20:25:05

Jimmy Sutton - Posted - 04/06/2026:  01:51:55

Tony Thomas mentions something above about Old Time Music
"not being designed" for larger groups ?

Can he tell us who it was that "designed" old time music and when they did so?

Does folk music have rules?

Just curious.

John Yerxa - Posted - 04/06/2026:  04:50:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jimmy Sutton

Tony Thomas mentions something above about Old Time Music

"not being designed" for larger groups ?



Can he tell us who it was that "designed" old time music and when they did so?



Does folk music have rules?



Just curious.

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Yae, and what about "when old time music was extant, living music" -  when did it die? I hadn't heard.

So yes, I too, like playing in smaller groups. But the big jams build community, and provide learning opportunities.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 04/06/2026:  05:22:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by martyjoe

Forget about drums ! And don’t make too many assumptions that drums are a thing with Irish sessions. More often than not the bodhran players in Irish sessions are a pain in the arse. We all like to good percussion player and a good player of a drum, spoons, bones and so on can add to lot to a session but the reality is that they are not required. This whole bodhran thing started in the 60’s and was introduced by composer Sean O Rieada. Prior to that it was never heard of in Irish music. There is plenty of rhythm in all kinds of western folk music that is carried by melody instruments particularly the banjo and fiddle. No need for drum, no need for bass no need for guitar even but it’s nice to have them if they’re played well.

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Finally I am not the only one willing to state this fact!  Say this to American Civil War "living historians" and it is like you just kicked their family dog.  They take it as a personal insult. 

EEB - Posted - 04/08/2026:  10:39:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by martyjoe

Forget about drums ! And don’t make too many assumptions that drums are a thing with Irish sessions. More often than not the bodhran players in Irish sessions are a pain in the arse. We all like to good percussion player and a good player of a drum, spoons, bones and so on can add to lot to a session but the reality is that they are not required. This whole bodhran thing started in the 60’s and was introduced by composer Sean O Rieada. Prior to that it was never heard of in Irish music. There is plenty of rhythm in all kinds of western folk music that is carried by melody instruments particularly the banjo and fiddle. No need for drum, no need for bass no need for guitar even but it’s nice to have them if they’re played well.

---

Finally I am not the only one willing to state this fact!  Say this to American Civil War "living historians" and it is like you just kicked their family dog.  They take it as a personal insult. 

---

What we refer to today as the cultural 'essence' and 'identity' of national 'folk' music all derives in the first instance from the widespread and profoundly selective endeavour of late-Victorian and Edwardian academics. Ireland is no exception; the agenda of the Gaelic League founded in 1893 was specifically to advance an idea of Gaelic culture and identity.

In historical terms the awkward but unavoidable issue is the activity and overlap these ideologues deliberately 'edited' and disregarded. That reappraisal is not contentious in the least, it is an evidenced truth based on a thorough reevaluation of the methodology and assertions of this cohort of academics. As is characteristic of academia there is a substantial paper trail that documents this blinkered mania toward cultural construction.

Across Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales and North America the positive result is the boost to vernacular music played for and by ordinary people. The negative result is that what is a relatively recent early-20th century construct is held by some to represent an 'essence' of their national identity neatly connecting back through the mists of time.

The 'mystical' and 'ancient' bodhran is a tangible example of this anti-history. Or what the Irish themselves have a word for: balony .

Edited by - EEB on 04/08/2026 10:48:12

Owen - Posted - 04/10/2026:  08:30:52

How can I contribute??

'Way off onto a tangent, or two tangents, but ^^ reminds me ....

When I was still trying to play hockey, it was sorta commonplace to have a team golf tournament.  After a couple where I tried to play golf, I decided I could better contribute by operating the cart with the beer cooler.

I also recall an editorial cartoon from back in the day, with the NATO big-wigs assembled in a stereotypical war-room (?) with the requisite map on table/wall. The caption went something like .... "Germany will do something or other on the left flank, and France will supply air cover over here ... etc. .... and Canada will supply the coffee and donuts."

loukiii - Posted - 04/17/2026:  05:29:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

How can I contribute??

'Way off onto a tangent, or two tangents, but ^^ reminds me ....

When I was still trying to play hockey, it was sorta commonplace to have a team golf tournament.  After a couple where I tried to play golf, I decided I could better contribute by operating the cart with the beer cooler.

I also recall an editorial cartoon from back in the day, with the NATO big-wigs assembled in a stereotypical war-room (?) with the requisite map on table/wall. The caption went something like .... "Germany will do something or other on the left flank, and France will supply air cover over here ... etc. .... and Canada will supply the coffee and donuts."

 

 

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lol I was going to say "Pass out ear plugs"

5stringjim5 - Posted - 04/21/2026:  06:47:05

I went to one local old-tyme tunes jam. It had way too many banjos in it, 7 or 8 if I recall correctly. There were some good and some not so, and a bit of banjo jealousy involved. The key was called, and off the fiddlers went. If you played guitar, you could listen for chord changes as well as watch the guitarist's hands and chord a-chord-ingly. Ooh, sorry folks, had to. Anyway, I didn't go back. Too jumbled of a group with 4 or 5 fiddles and that many banjos. Could have broken down into a few smaller groups I thought. Good advice here though: don't overplay it or play too loudly. Blend in, enjoy the time playing, and keep it simple. If you could keep up note for note with a fiddler, you'd probably find your banjo starting on fire. My 2 cents' worth.

SalamanderIsland - Posted - 04/21/2026:  07:16:33

As I also know my chord shapes down the neck from 3 finger style, I sometimes will just vamp in a for song (particularly if I don't feel like retuning). Especially if I'm less familiar with the song. I found it is almost always a positive contribution to the sound and really nice to have a loud chop on the offbeat. Pretty easy and effective way to contribute in a jam imo

Owen - Posted - 04/21/2026:  07:34:17

Tongue kinda in cheek, that's ^^ sorta what I try, 'cept I try to do it quietly enough that it doesn't interfere with those close-by.  I suspect being able to play the same chord as everybody else is probably an important factor.   

[Thanks, Mr. Skeleton.... next to my wife saying I got her eggs fried "just right" for breakfast, that's ^^ the most encouraging thing that's happened so far today.  ]