RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/16/2026:  10:21:16

I have been making my own breaks for songs by ear recently because I am attempting to break away from TAB dependence. I have noticed two things-

1: I hit the melody note with my index finger as often as possible. I know this isn't the standard way of picking, but I like the sound, and I don't really think it's a problem that needs addressing. Please let me know if I should stop doing this.

2: If I do hit a note on the fourth string with my thumb and then have a gap in the melody that I need to do some rolls or licks over, I will almost always bring my thumb up to the fifth string to start my roll or lick. I am concerned about this, as I know it is not efficient and can really cause issues down the line once I start playing stuff faster. How can I program my brain not to use the same finger twice?

BobbyE - Posted - 03/16/2026:  11:03:55

The only way to break a bad habit is to replace it with a good habit. I'm not going to debate whether what you are doing is the best way to play or not, that is up to you. But not everyone does play everything the exact 'standard,' way of playing something, if there be such a thing. If it works for you and it is not messing up your tone, technique, and timing I am not sure I would worry that much about it. A part of learning is developing to the point where you know something is the best way to go or not.

Bobby

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/16/2026:  11:09:31

Ralph Stanley used his index finger for lead/melody notes. Listen to his picking and see if that's what you want to do.

As far as using the thumb twice i a row, BobbyE gave excellent advice. If you're happy with it, then that's how you should continue.

However, if you decide you want to break that habit, then you'll need to work a new habit of using it only once. Take songs you know slowly and when you catch yourself using the old way, stop, go back and work on the new way. Any new songs you learn, be careful to use the new way, not the old. Eventually, the brain will get the idea and start doing it automatically.

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/16/2026:  11:12:57

Quote: “ If I do hit a note on the fourth string with my thumb and then have a gap in the melody that I need to do some rolls or licks over, I will almost always bring my thumb up to the fifth string to start my roll or lick.” It’s ok if that fourth string note is a quarter note (4/4 time) , then you can roll eighth notes starting with the thumb.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/16/2026:  11:19:04

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

If I do hit a note on the fourth string with my thumb and then have a gap in the melody that I need to do some rolls or licks over, I will almost always bring my thumb up to the fifth string to start my roll or lick. I am concerned about this, as I know it is not efficient and can really cause issues down the line once I start playing stuff faster. How can I program my brain not to use the same finger twice?

---

For starters, the fifth string may well be the one "always" rule (or standard technique) in banjo. I always and only pick the fifth string with my thumb. While I can imagine some type of single-string technique that might go thumb-index on fifth, I've never done it.

So for the sake of this discussion, let's accept that for a player at your likely level and for the material you're likely to be playing, you will always and only pick the fifth string with the thumb.

So whether there's anything wrong with using your thumb on the fifth after using it on the fourth depends entirely on context. That is: How much time/space between notes. And why did you pick the fourth with the thumb?

Let's go.

For simplicity's sake, let's assume you're counting a piece of music as if it's in 4/4 (4 beats per measure, quarter note gets one beat). This means your typical measure full of rolled notes will have 8 notes that you'll count:  "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and."

Agreed so far? Good. Let's continue.

Assuming the fourth string note you hit with your thumb happens on the count of "1" -- when does the next note occur?

If it occurs on the count of "2" or anything later, it is standard technique to pick that note with the thumb.  You have the space of an unplayed eighth note between the two picked notes. That is: the fourth string note is at least a quarter note. So using the thumb twice in a row is standard and fine. Using any finger twice in a row when the first note is a quarter. Some people call this a rest. Technically it might not be. But if it helps you to think of it that way, no harm

If, on the other hand, the fourth string note is picked on the count of "1" then the fifth string is picked on the immediately following "and" then you have a problem. It is not standard technique to use the same finger on two consecuctive eighth notes. And especially not standard technique to use the thumb on two consecutive eighths going backward from the fourth to the fifth. It's slow and awkward.

If the two consecutive notes are indeed eighths, then I believe you need to look at your fingering to see if the fourth string can be picked with the index so the thumb is free to pick the fifth.

Is this is a tab or is it something you're making up?

If you can show us the tab or describe it accurately, we can better understand what's happening.

My guess is the first note is a quarter and so you're doing nothing that needs correcting.

As to the point I didn't quote -- about your playing melody notes with the index finger -- it just takes time and intentional effort to use the thumb for melody. But it's also not a hard and fast rule. Context is everything in picking.

RB3 - Posted - 03/16/2026:  15:34:17

"I hit the melody note with my index finger as often as possible. I know this isn't the standard way of picking, but I like the sound, and I don't really think it's a problem that needs addressing. Please let me know if I should stop doing this."



In my opinion, the notion that the index and middle fingers are not used to play the melody notes is nonsense. If the best places to get those melody notes are on the first or second string, it certainly seems to make sense that you would use your index or middle finger to play them.

Edited by - RB3 on 03/16/2026 15:37:41

RB-1 - Posted - 03/16/2026:  15:47:41

Record some of those breaks and let us guess which song or tune you're playing.

That would tell you, whether you're succeeding in playing the melody...

tonygo - Posted - 03/16/2026:  17:15:04

That seems like a simple problem to over come. Control it and then do what ever you want. Don't let it dictate your sound.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/17/2026:  06:31:14

As usual, I agree with/endorse what Ken said. I also agree that we'd need to see a video (or some kind of) example of your playing if we're to offer meaningful suggestions. That said, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest anyway.

If the note BEFORE that worrisome 5th-string note is a quarter note--longer than the notes that make up the roll--then no problem, as Ken explained. But if the 4th-string note is an eighth note--a shorter note, like the notes in a continuous roll--try using your middle finger to play a filler on the 1st string.

That's a very standard thing in Scruggs-style playing: a thumb note on a strong part of the beat followed my a middle-finger filler note on the weak part of the beat. It happens so often, that for experienced players it's almost a conditioned reflex, like salivating when we hear a bell ring. ;^)

Ric in Richmond - Posted - 03/18/2026:  13:27:39

If you are playing relatively slowly you can get away with most anything...as you get things up to speed you find double fingering or double thumbing become physically impossible.

Better to get it right now and not regret the learning curve later.

RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  14:52:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Ric in Richmond

If you are playing relatively slowly you can get away with most anything...as you get things up to speed you find double fingering or double thumbing become physically impossible.



Better to get it right now and not regret the learning curve later.

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I completely agree!

RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  14:56:10

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

As usual, I agree with/endorse what Ken said. I also agree that we'd need to see a video (or some kind of) example of your playing if we're to offer meaningful suggestions. That said, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest anyway.



If the note BEFORE that worrisome 5th-string note is a quarter note--longer than the notes that make up the roll--then no problem, as Ken explained. But if the 4th-string note is an eighth note--a shorter note, like the notes in a continuous roll--try using your middle finger to play a filler on the 1st string.



That's a very standard thing in Scruggs-style playing: a thumb note on a strong part of the beat followed my a middle-finger filler note on the weak part of the beat. It happens so often, that for experienced players it's almost a conditioned reflex, like salivating when we hear a bell ring. ;^)

---

This is an 8th note, I simply worked the song out very meticulously and got it to where my index is avaliable to hit the fourth string. This fixed my problem for now I am curious about how to avoid this when coming up with something on the spot. I dont want to pick myself into a bind when attempting something new at a jam where I wont have time to work it out slowly. If I just keep working everything out slowly will ot become natural or will this be something I have to consciously think about while playing?

RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  14:57:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Ralph Stanley used his index finger for lead/melody notes. Listen to his picking and see if that's what you want to do.



As far as using the thumb twice i a row, BobbyE gave excellent advice. If you're happy with it, then that's how you should continue.



However, if you decide you want to break that habit, then you'll need to work a new habit of using it only once. Take songs you know slowly and when you catch yourself using the old way, stop, go back and work on the new way. Any new songs you learn, be careful to use the new way, not the old. Eventually, the brain will get the idea and start doing it automatically.

---

I love Ralph's style! Are there any other players who lead with their index? I really like the sound of Don Stover and Cullen Galyen as well but I am not advanced enough to tell what they are doing.

RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  15:00:26

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

If I do hit a note on the fourth string with my thumb and then have a gap in the melody that I need to do some rolls or licks over, I will almost always bring my thumb up to the fifth string to start my roll or lick. I am concerned about this, as I know it is not efficient and can really cause issues down the line once I start playing stuff faster. How can I program my brain not to use the same finger twice?

---

For starters, the fifth string may well be the one "always" rule (or standard technique) in banjo. I always and only pick the fifth string with my thumb. While I can imagine some type of single-string technique that might go thumb-index on fifth, I've never done it.

So for the sake of this discussion, let's accept that for a player at your likely level and for the material you're likely to be playing, you will always and only pick the fifth string with the thumb.

So whether there's anything wrong with using your thumb on the fifth after using it on the fourth depends entirely on context. That is: How much time/space between notes. And why did you pick the fourth with the thumb?

Let's go.

For simplicity's sake, let's assume you're counting a piece of music as if it's in 4/4 (4 beats per measure, quarter note gets one beat). This means your typical measure full of rolled notes will have 8 notes that you'll count:  "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and."

Agreed so far? Good. Let's continue.

Assuming the fourth string note you hit with your thumb happens on the count of "1" -- when does the next note occur?

If it occurs on the count of "2" or anything later, it is standard technique to pick that note with the thumb.  You have the space of an unplayed eighth note between the two picked notes. That is: the fourth string note is at least a quarter note. So using the thumb twice in a row is standard and fine. Using any finger twice in a row when the first note is a quarter. Some people call this a rest. Technically it might not be. But if it helps you to think of it that way, no harm

If, on the other hand, the fourth string note is picked on the count of "1" then the fifth string is picked on the immediately following "and" then you have a problem. It is not standard technique to use the same finger on two consecuctive eighth notes. And especially not standard technique to use the thumb on two consecutive eighths going backward from the fourth to the fifth. It's slow and awkward.

If the two consecutive notes are indeed eighths, then I believe you need to look at your fingering to see if the fourth string can be picked with the index so the thumb is free to pick the fifth.

Is this is a tab or is it something you're making up?

If you can show us the tab or describe it accurately, we can better understand what's happening.

My guess is the first note is a quarter and so you're doing nothing that needs correcting.

As to the point I didn't quote -- about your playing melody notes with the index finger -- it just takes time and intentional effort to use the thumb for melody. But it's also not a hard and fast rule. Context is everything in picking.

---

Im fine with using my index for melody, I just want to avoid using any of my fingers to play two 8th notes in a row. I really examined what im doing and im realizing I always try to start every roll with the thumb. Ill work on starting rolls with different fingers across different string, I feel like that may help me.

RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  15:02:42

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

Record some of those breaks and let us guess which song or tune you're playing.

That would tell you, whether you're succeeding in playing the melody...

---

I cant figure out how to upload the files always end up too large. I am hitting the melody, im not concerned about that. I do appreciate the advice and willingness to help though!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/18/2026:  15:10:58

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

As usual, I agree with/endorse what Ken said. I also agree that we'd need to see a video (or some kind of) example of your playing if we're to offer meaningful suggestions. That said, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest anyway.



If the note BEFORE that worrisome 5th-string note is a quarter note--longer than the notes that make up the roll--then no problem, as Ken explained. But if the 4th-string note is an eighth note--a shorter note, like the notes in a continuous roll--try using your middle finger to play a filler on the 1st string.



That's a very standard thing in Scruggs-style playing: a thumb note on a strong part of the beat followed my a middle-finger filler note on the weak part of the beat. It happens so often, that for experienced players it's almost a conditioned reflex, like salivating when we hear a bell ring. ;^)

---

This is an 8th note, I simply worked the song out very meticulously and got it to where my index is avaliable to hit the fourth string. This fixed my problem for now I am curious about how to avoid this when coming up with something on the spot. I dont want to pick myself into a bind when attempting something new at a jam where I wont have time to work it out slowly. If I just keep working everything out slowly will ot become natural or will this be something I have to consciously think about while playing?

---

Sounds like you came up with an ad hoc fix for this particular situation. But there may be more general habits that you can develop. If you can feel that situation about to happen just a few notes ahead, there are things an experienced player might do to forestall the problem. For example, if you're in the middle of a continuous forward roll, you might be able to reset the roll by a one-time move where the thumb is followed by the middle finger instead of the index, and then continue forward from there. Or you might pivot into backward roll when you get to you middle finger, as happens in the middle of the standard tag lick.



It's hard for me to be more specific without seeing you play. Perhaps a one-off video lesson might help. (I'm not a big-name player, but I have a good track record as a teacher. iragitlin.com/music-instruction ) Feel free to contact me.

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/19/2026:  06:49:40

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

I really examined what im doing and im realizing I always try to start every roll with the thumb. Ill work on starting rolls with different fingers across different string, I feel like that may help me.

---

Intentionally starting rolls (or picking patterns) with index and middle will help you get away from always starting with thumb.

So will starting picking patterns on any of the five strings and going in either direction after starting a pattern with index.

quote:

Im fine with using my index for melody, I just want to avoid using any of my fingers to play two 8th notes in a row. 

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Finger management is something improvisers eventually learn. I can't explain it.

But I think we all encounter times when something we would like to play becomes tricky because it starts on the same finger the previous improvised phrase ended on. The example or two I can think of when it repeatedly happens to me are too wordy even for me (!). The short version: I end up not playing what I intended because I picked myself into a corner. And nobody knows but me!

The music that gets played still sounds like music. That I played a different phrase, lick or note in a very uptempo banjo tune makes no difference. The unintended music is gone in under a second. Time to move on.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 03/19/2026 06:59:27

RB-1 - Posted - 03/19/2026:  16:40:03

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

Record some of those breaks and let us guess which song or tune you're playing.

That would tell you, whether you're succeeding in playing the melody...

---

I cant figure out how to upload the files always end up too large. I am hitting the melody, im not concerned about that. I do appreciate the advice and willingness to help though!

---

Ok, tell us hoe you usually record yourself.  With that clear we might be able to help you with that too.

I used to work with Pro Tools, but after that system crashed,  I went on with Audacity on a laptop. This proved good enough for what I do now.

RK-FenderPartsBanjo07 - Posted - 03/19/2026:  18:51:29

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

Record some of those breaks and let us guess which song or tune you're playing.

That would tell you, whether you're succeeding in playing the melody...

---

I cant figure out how to upload the files always end up too large. I am hitting the melody, im not concerned about that. I do appreciate the advice and willingness to help though!

---

Ok, tell us hoe you usually record yourself.  With that clear we might be able to help you with that too.

I used to work with Pro Tools, but after that system crashed,  I went on with Audacity on a laptop. This proved good enough for what I do now.

---

I record myself on my phone, then email the video to myself 

RB-1 - Posted - 03/20/2026:  00:28:56

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

quote:

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Originally posted by RB-1

Record some of those breaks and let us guess which song or tune you're playing.

That would tell you, whether you're succeeding in playing the melody...

---

I cant figure out how to upload the files always end up too large. I am hitting the melody, im not concerned about that. I do appreciate the advice and willingness to help though!

---

Ok, tell us hoe you usually record yourself.  With that clear we might be able to help you with that too.

I used to work with Pro Tools, but after that system crashed,  I went on with Audacity on a laptop. This proved good enough for what I do now.

---

I record myself on my phone, then email the video to myself 

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I see, I never do video except from my fiddle teacher.

But that is only for my own use, not for uploading to a forum.

I can't help there...

seanray - Posted - 03/20/2026:  11:13:04

Double-thumbing worked well for Earl & JD on medium tempo tunes so don't overthink it too much. It all depends on the tune.

Here's a video, I shot, of JD playing You Don't Know My Mind that's full of double thumb and index. It wouldn't sound nearly as cool without it.

VIDEO: You Don't Know My Mind - JD Crowe
(click to view)

 

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/21/2026:  10:48:18

quote:

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Originally posted by RK-FenderPartsBanjo07

. . . I just want to avoid using any of my fingers to play two 8th notes in a row. I really examined what im doing and im realizing I always try to start every roll with the thumb. I'll work on starting rolls with different fingers across different string, I feel like that may help me.

---

Coming back to this comment to offer some added thoughts.

First: According to your profile, you're only 18 years old and have only been playing since 2024. So maybe not even two full years. If that's so, then (1) you're probably off to a great start, and (2) it bodes well for your future as a player that you're thinking about how to make your picking more efficient and avoid problems that can slow you down. -- What I referred to as finger management a few days ago.

I'd be curious to see how you ended up with a pattern ending with thumb on fourth string and needing fifth string on the next note. I'm wondering just how important this is to whatever melody you're playing. Sight unseen, I'm certain that changing one or more notes is the fix. Either revise the leading roll to avoid ending on the fourth string, or revise the following roll to eliminate starting on the fifth string. If I had to choose, I'd bet you don't need to start the following roll on fifth. In Scruggs style, the fifth string is rarely an important or necessary melody note. I'm sure there's something you can pick with the middle or index for the first note that will let you get back to what you've worked out by the second note. 

Second: As Sean Ray says, double-thumbing is not always bad (though your specific situation of going from fourth to fifth string with the thumb on two consecutive eighth notes is not good technique).

Double-index is also not entirely bad. There are some situations where you might find yourself wanting four consecutive notes starting on first string and ending on fourth or fifth. [1-2-3-4; 1-2-3-5; 1-3-4-5, for example]. The approach used and taught by players such as Alan Munde and Tony Trischka is to pick these M-T-I-T.   I can do this, and at moderate tempos where I have the ability to think about it I do pick it that way. But I also find it no problem - and actually easier -  to use my index finger for the middle two notes.

Third: To help you get away from always starting rolls, measures, or phrases with thumb, you might benefit from roll pattern exercises that start with index or middle. These must exist in any number of books and possibly online.

You can also find such patterns in the tab for tunes. You just have to look at a lot tabs, find sequences that don't start with thumb, and see whether they're banjo vocabulary you can use on the same chord in other songs. I think most of the time they will be.

To give you a start on that, here are two tabs in the Hangout library (one of them mine) that have a lot of repeatable measures or phrases starting on index or middle:



New Camptown Races - a faithful transcription of Bill Keith's first solo in the original recording

Redwing - a three-verse tab very closely representing what I played in this video. I didn't entirely play it as I had intended, so I did my best to adjust my tab to reflect what I ended up playing.

Both of these tabs have several examples of roll sequences that don't start with thumb. Should be enough to spark your own thinking.

Good luck.