jsinjin - Posted - 03/07/2026:  18:49:54

I love playing and practicing my banjo. I find that I hate playing with others in jams or pick ups or any sort of group get together. It’s my least favorite to big to do musically. I know that for most banjo players playing with groups and being part of that music is one of their biggest reasons for playing.

I wondered if there are others like me out there who really dislike jams, music sessions and playing with groups? I know I’m in the minority but I wondered if others enjoy playing clawhammer style but without any need to play with groups and if someone of yall might want to chat and share practice tips and learnings that don’t have to do with fitting into jams and groups playing together?

lazlototh - Posted - 03/07/2026:  19:24:48

It is a matter of what makes you happy when you play.
I am dyslexic and cannot keep up with others without tying them down for a long time to try to get in sync. I find when it works with others it can be great fun, but I cannot ask friends to suffer through my issues.

Playing to entertain myself and anyone who might want to listen is fine for me.
And I do get to choose all the songs.

tdennis - Posted - 03/07/2026:  20:04:27

You might look into getting together with musicians in a different way than Jamming. (Jamming by joining a group of strangers who may be playing unfamiliar songs, that you are not prepared for, & trying to fit in to a group can be challenging, intimidating, & uncomfortable). However, if you can find fellow musicians who agree ahead of time to practice a certain number of agreed upon songs, this can be a very satisfying get together. This kind of ensemble playing can greatly improve your own skills.

Edited by - tdennis on 03/07/2026 20:06:23

EEB - Posted - 03/08/2026:  03:23:37

John, you don’t say what it is -specifically - why you don’t enjoy playing music with others. If it is a feeling of being overwhelmed, too much stimulus, that could just be a part of who you are? We are all different and finding what we each enjoy most is the most natural thing in the world. Follow your instinct.



But if it’s not from a sense of being overwhelmed, I wonder if it’s confronting something which seldom gets mentioned but can be a big hurdle for lone players to overcome; the ‘intrusion’ or ‘distraction’ of another instrument in what you’ve learned to consider as 'your' sound-space. Processing and accommodating that basic feature of playing with others (that you don't 'control') can throw some people when they first experience it. We learn in ensemble playing how to relinquish our idea of 'control' and acquire through sensitivity the ability to integrate our sound. We understand musically what it is to contribute to a whole.

Edited by - EEB on 03/08/2026 03:36:19

jsinjin - Posted - 03/08/2026:  05:30:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by EEB

John, you don’t say what it is -specifically - why you don’t enjoy playing music with others. If it is a feeling of being overwhelmed, too much stimulus, that could just be a part of who you are? We are all different and finding what we each enjoy most is the most natural thing in the world. Follow your instinct.

It's not that.  I just find I don't enjoy the group, the sort of grooving and improvising.  The music and playing the next song or getting into the current song.   I really enjoy taking one tune and learning everything about it.   Every single note, every detail, why the changes happen in chords up and down the neck and how it can be shifted.  I like to write each note out in standard non-tablature bass and treble clef notation and memorize the music note for note and quarte or eighth note to the next.   And then just practice it.   I don't enjoy the music or groove or feeling of the song or the group playing.   

 

I was just wanting to chat with others who like to talk about and delve into this style of playing and theory and improving their banjo playing without the normal methods of listing to lots of people playing and joining in as the primary means to play.

EEB - Posted - 03/08/2026:  05:42:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

quote:

---

Originally posted by EEB

John, you don’t say what it is -specifically - why you don’t enjoy playing music with others. If it is a feeling of being overwhelmed, too much stimulus, that could just be a part of who you are? We are all different and finding what we each enjoy most is the most natural thing in the world. Follow your instinct.

It's not that.  I just find I don't enjoy the group, the sort of grooving and improvising.  The music and playing the next song or getting into the current song.   I really enjoy taking one tune and learning everything about it.   Every single note, every detail, why the changes happen in chords up and down the neck and how it can be shifted.  I like to write each note out in standard non-tablature bass and treble clef notation and memorize the music note for note and quarte or eighth note to the next.   And then just practice it.   I don't enjoy the music or groove or feeling of the song or the group playing.   

 

I was just wanting to chat with others who like to talk about and delve into this style of playing and theory and improving their banjo playing without the normal methods of listing to lots of people playing and joining in as the primary means to play.

---

That's great that you've found what interests you. Analysis and understanding structure and pattern are a part of musicality. I hope you find others who share your approach.

Edited by - EEB on 03/08/2026 05:45:37

stanleytone - Posted - 03/08/2026:  06:04:15

This has to be one of the strangest posts ive seen on the hangout.... Not finding fault with you,mind you. Ive always thought that playing music with others is one of the most socially fullfilling things one can do. The bond that is created between musicians is a very exclusive one. Sort of like the bond between brothers in arms. You are part of a unit and each one has a task to do and that the doing of that task benefits the whole unit..

Oh for sure i get immense enjoyment out of just playing alone,and i myself do a lot of tabbing. But boy do i get a thrill being in a good tight jam.

But if you get the same thrill in just absorbing yourself into the music alone, then i say more power to you!

Edited by - stanleytone on 03/08/2026 06:05:00

NNYJoe - Posted - 03/08/2026:  06:30:09

Great topic! One of the hardest questions to answer is "Why do you play?"
and it seems the longer you play, the more the answer evolves.
I spent a summer playing in a weekly jam, plus traveling a 100 miles to play at a Peter Warnick Jam session. I was deeply immersed in playing with others because that's what everyone said I was supposed to do.
I learned a lot about timing & chord changes, rhythm & how to play through mistakes. While that was all good, I was learning it on songs I did not like nor enjoyed playing. Before summer was over I was starting to lose my enthusiasm for the banjo.
In a reflective moment, I started humming "Garden Party" by Rick Nelson.
We knew it all along, but we sometimes forget.
"But it's all right now, I learned my lesson well
You see, ya can't please everyone, so ya got to please yourself."

So I sit & play and smile & enjoy every moment. Once in a great while I will play with others, just for the novelty. I don't want to be in a band, I don't want to play for worship services, I'm not interested in hearing people yell "Yee haw!"

I'm happy to sit & pick.

writerrad - Posted - 03/08/2026:  10:47:18

 There is playing with others and playing in jams. The unfortunate problem is that in both Bluegrass and Old Time the chief opportunity people playing most instruments, but especially the banjo have is in playing in "jams." In most jams people walk into a room and perhaps people agree to play a tune or a song and that is often all there is.  There is no real discussion of how they will play the tune or song, and there is usually not attempt to really discuss what each musician should do in particular.  So it can be very dissatisfying.

There is very often absolutely NO discussion about how the tune will be played, and only customary ideas of how it will go in the jam.  It is somehow considered that everyone knows how to play a particular tune when we all have multiple recordings where even the masters play a tune differently on each recording,



Especially times I have had the privilege of playing with others who were accomplished experienced and professional musicians is the opposite of playing in jams.  The first thing that happens--if there is not some established understanding in the group before getting together with someone being designated the leader or teacher--is a discussion about how the tune or song will be played either within the group, or someone seen as the leader, at least for this selection, instructs.

  Then there is DISCUSSION about how to do that. The designated role of each musician playing the tune, if not already well recognized by playing together for some time, may be discussed or debated. Depending on how decisions are made, one way of playing the tune or song will be weighed against others.

People will end up knowing what to do and what not to do. Often it will be discussed where different musicians will sit or stand in relation to the entire group or how sound equipment will be adjusted so they particular musicians can be heard, and so a musician who needs to hear another musician her or his playing depends upon.



The previous paragraph pretty much describes how it works with professional musicians I worked with in the Ebony Hillbillies, a group of professional jazz and soul musicians who played old time music based in NYC that I had the privilege of working with as a substitute when their established banjoist had health problems. The original group is now pretty much gone to retirement or death.  These were not new people to music folks who were in their 50s, 60s, and 70s who had been working paid musicians all their lives.



The group included one musician who had won Grammies for record producing  and song writing and had recorded with people like John Coltrane and at times a drummer who had been the house drummer both at the Apollo and at Motown. The leader had been in the Saturday Night Live band for several years. The female vocalist besides holding a conservatory degree had been a backup singer and dancer for James Brown, and taught voice to professional singers in NYC and sometimes was called in to coach singers by recording studios.   

All these folks other than me, had been working professional musicians all their lives. And they all played regularly together in NYC.

The other thing they were deeply concerned about, was arranging how we sat or stood in a session or performance in a way that the musicians who needed to hear each other properly heard each other, especially having the bass be heard, having the fiddle be heard, and so forth. If we played a venue with a PA onstage, there was always a concrete discussion of whose feed went into whose monitor.



They never assumed that there was one way tune was played without discussing it even thought everyone else but me had been playing together for years.  They took special care since I was a guest, an amateur coming in because the regular banjoist could not do the gig. They was always discussion and adjustment so everyone knew what she or he was doing. That is how serious professional musicians function.



The whole jam culture in both Bluegrass and old tme music suggests instead that no knowledge adjustment or specificity exists in how a tune is played.



Contemporary jam culture in both old time and bluegrass is confusing. It assumes that we just sit anywhere and play anyway without realizing every performance of any piece of music is particular. Every performance needs to be worked out among the different players, and every performance needs to follow the lines of what the musicians agree is the particular approach to be taken.



I find it a little weird that this is rarely discussed if I go to a bluegrass jam or at the old time jam I conduct each week. So many people who just go to these jams are miss trained or untrained about what to do that you have to start all over with some of them if you are going into a real band-like performing situation.



One thing I like in some of the banjo camps I have gone to is at the start of the camp, groups of a fiddler, banjoist, guitarist etc volunteer to play together. The goal is to practice all week under the supervision of a camp teacher a professional performer usually, to practice like a band, not a jam, about how to play the tune or song. Each group that does this performers their song or songs on stage at the evening concerts for the whole camp.  Doing his there was a lot of wisdom dispensed by the leaders appointed by the camp that was quite valuable.



Nothing wrong with jams of the type we have if that is all we have, but, a lot of people whose experience is just jams do not learn how to play in the real situation that playing is designed for and do the wrong thing when they do!

Edited by - writerrad on 03/08/2026 11:09:26

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/08/2026:  10:56:57

I get it. I don’t enjoy chaotic large jams with maybe three other banjos playing backup most of the time on songs you don’t care for. I’d much rather connect with one or two players who are the same or better than me and focus down on the music. As it is, I usually play alone. Maybe I’m getting grumpy in my old age.

writerrad - Posted - 03/08/2026:  11:11:25

quote: Yes,  some jams  I have seen will break up into smaller groups if the space is open to that.  There are things that I used to do that worked well in these over big jams especially on guitar, that I would get shot and justifiably so if I ever did them in an actual old time or bluegrass band of 3to 5 musicians.

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I get it. I don’t enjoy chaotic large jams with maybe three other banjos playing backup most of the time on songs you don’t care for. I’d much rather connect with one or two players who are the same or better than me and focus down on the music. As it is, I usually play alone. Maybe I’m getting grumpy in my old age.

---

writerrad - Posted - 03/08/2026:  11:19:01

I will add another factor especially for seniors. Most of my playing in jams has come after I retired at the age of 63 15 years ago. I live in West Palm Beach, which abounds in seniors. and jams are really on senior schedule. Both our old time and our bluegrass jams are during the day on a week day which bring a good crowd of mostly retirees as well as younger people with non traditional work schedules.
'
Hearing is an important issue especially for seniors. Hearing loss can be deceptive in that you lose say just the treble or just the bass or distorts from one direction or another. An accomplished Bluegrass player here detected I had hearing loss from the rhythm I was keeping playing guitar at a bluegrass jam and told me to get hearing aids. He was right.

Maybe since I live in the land of seniors, but I think this can be a factor.

SophiaD - Posted - 03/08/2026:  12:27:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

Hearing is an important issue especially for seniors. Hearing loss can be deceptive in that you lose say just the treble or just the bass or distorts from one direction or another. 

---

Indeed it is.  There are some up sides; whenever I want to hear a really plunky banjo, I just take out the hearing aids.  Instant plunk.

RB-1 - Posted - 03/08/2026:  13:21:30

Playing well with others?

Depends entirely on how well the others are playing......

RB-1 - Posted - 03/08/2026:  13:25:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I get it. I don’t enjoy chaotic large jams with maybe three other banjos playing backup most of the time on songs you don’t care for. I’d much rather connect with one or two players who are the same or better than me and focus down on the music. As it is, I usually play alone. Maybe I’m getting grumpy in my old age.

---

My thoughts exactly!

But no, not grumpy at all, you're just telling the truth!

If only we could jam again.....

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/08/2026:  14:12:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB-1

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I get it. I don’t enjoy chaotic large jams with maybe three other banjos playing backup most of the time on songs you don’t care for. I’d much rather connect with one or two players who are the same or better than me and focus down on the music. As it is, I usually play alone. Maybe I’m getting grumpy in my old age.

---

My thoughts exactly!

But no, not grumpy at all, you're just telling the truth!

If only we could jam again.....

---

I would enjoy that, Bruno. 

Silver_Falls - Posted - 03/08/2026:  16:34:01

if it means obnoxious fiddles and manic mandolins, hell no

writerrad - Posted - 03/08/2026:  16:38:11

I had a friend who took upf the banjo upon retirement, but all he ever was taught was how to play lead versions of fiddle tunes by all the private lessons he took, rather than how to play banjo with a fiddler or in a band situation. It was remarkable and a tribute to his musical training on other instruments, how well he could play, but he could not do anything but get in the way of the fiddlers or other lead instruments..



Go onliine and look at banjo lessons for old time. They are all about how to play lead versions mostly lead versions of fiddle tunes, not how to support a fiddler or a singer.  I have thousands of Old Time recordings, but these lessons are teaching banjoists lead versions of tunes for which no one has ever recorded a banjoist playing lead on.



They are not about how to play with a fiddler or accompany a singer or keeping time. I felt lucky when I returned to playing music a lot about 25 years ago because I had played the guitar since I was 15 and knew about doing that. Even though I honor Bluegrass banjo highly by not playing it.



It can be an education to listen to Earl playing accompaniment or in the background when he is not taking a solo on the F & S records. Watching him on the F & S Martha white shows, about 12 of which you can find on YouTube is really instructive even if you are an old time player.

Edited by - writerrad on 03/08/2026 16:42:55

jsinjin - Posted - 03/08/2026:  18:22:57

I don’t enjoy listening to music of any type except again, I can go down to TCU in ft worth and hear the Cliburn pianists which I do every time the competition comes around. But the jams I have attended are sort of a game of guess the song, the musicians are clearly experts and the inclusion of beginners is sort a fend for yourself. But that’s not the real reason I don’t enjoy jams or playing in groups. It’s just not fun for me. I can understand the old time musician love for playing in a group and I don’t fault anyone for it. I’m very good at memorizing long sequences of notes and terrible beyond any rational comprehension of hearing 1 4 5 chords or figuring out a song by listening. All this has been discussed before.

I was just wanting to see if there were others similar to me who might want to share tips and learnings that’ aren’t specifically “listen to as much old time music as you can” and “play with others and learn from them”. I’m sure those are the best way to learn music for most of the population but they haven’t worked for me and are very frustrating. So I hoped to just connnect with some who might me learning like me.

pghmatt - Posted - 03/11/2026:  15:16:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by writerrad

I had a friend who took upf the banjo upon retirement, but all he ever was taught was how to play lead versions of fiddle tunes by all the private lessons he took, rather than how to play banjo with a fiddler or in a band situation. It was remarkable and a tribute to his musical training on other instruments, how well he could play, but he could not do anything but get in the way of the fiddlers or other lead instruments..



Go onliine and look at banjo lessons for old time. They are all about how to play lead versions mostly lead versions of fiddle tunes, not how to support a fiddler or a singer.  I have thousands of Old Time recordings, but these lessons are teaching banjoists lead versions of tunes for which no one has ever recorded a banjoist playing lead on.



They are not about how to play with a fiddler or accompany a singer or keeping time. I felt lucky when I returned to playing music a lot about 25 years ago because I had played the guitar since I was 15 and knew about doing that. Even though I honor Bluegrass banjo highly by not playing it.



It can be an education to listen to Earl playing accompaniment or in the background when he is not taking a solo on the F & S records. Watching him on the F & S Martha white shows, about 12 of which you can find on YouTube is really instructive even if you are an old time player.

---

Was gonna share my thoughts but you pretty much covered it. Early instruction is mostly about the melody. 

Mad Hornet - Posted - 03/11/2026:  15:40:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I love playing and practicing my banjo. I find that I hate playing with others in jams or pick ups or any sort of group get together. It’s my least favorite to big to do musically. I know that for most banjo players playing with groups and being part of that music is one of their biggest reasons for playing.



I wondered if there are others like me out there who really dislike jams, music sessions and playing with groups? I know I’m in the minority but I wondered if others enjoy playing clawhammer style but without any need to play with groups and if someone of yall might want to chat and share practice tips and learnings that don’t have to do with fitting into jams and groups playing together?

---

You are definitely not alone.  I have really tried to enjoy it but more times than not, I really don't.  So why fight traffic to go do something I'm not enjoying?  I have a great time picking here at the house.

jsinjin - Posted - 03/13/2026:  08:56:40

I am going to a camp this summer that my teacher recommended and from what I’ve read about it, the evening jamming is set up by levels of experience and will have explanations of the tunes and “leaders”. My experience in DFW has been that the jams have established people and anyone walking in off the street had better observe the unwritten rules and know what to do. They weee significant experts at a level of playing and their goals for music was playing quickly and well together without a lot of hand holding to slow them down.

I don’t cycle but I live on the edge of a lake and hundreds or thousands of cyclists ride past each day in their pelotons of riders. I have learned from friends that one group of Tour de France style riders is there to train hard. They meet at a certain time and they ride at a certain mph and if you get dropped it’s your problem and if you have a flat tire it’s your problem and they’re not there to help or accommodate new inexperienced riders. That could sound harsh but the group dynamics are one of getting a difficult workout done at a high level each day. Then there is another group who advertise and try to encourage people in cycling and break up into multiple pacing groups before they leave the parking lot and even have rules that someone who is a veteran always rides last to make sure on one gets left behind and lost as well as rules that say someone never changes their own tire and the whole group stops for that kind of mechanical breakdown

It’s likely that there are different versions of this for jamming

I’ve just found I really don’t enjoy playing with others. Not because I am not good at it (I’m not) but for the same reason I don’t play golf. I don’t enjoy it. I don’t play golf so I’m definitely not good at it but the idea of playing it at all isn’t fun to me so there is no desire to get better at it as an activity. I feel the same way about jamming. I not only don’t enjoy it but I think that even if I was great at the activity, it’s just not fun for me.

EEB - Posted - 03/13/2026:  10:22:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I really enjoy taking one tune and learning everything about it.   Every single note, every detail, why the changes happen in chords up and down the neck and how it can be shifted.  I like to write each note out in standard non-tablature bass and treble clef notation and memorize the music note for note and quarte or eighth note to the next.   And then just practice it.   I don't enjoy the music or groove or feeling of the song or the group playing.   

---

One area of banjo that requires attention to detail, focus and analysis is transcribing recordings to learn and understand the very specific way in which a given individual played a particular tune on a particular occasion. This reveals the patterns,  techniques, phrasing and idiosyncrasies that contribute to what we refer to as 'personal style'.

From reading your posts it occurs to me that this might offer an excellent outlet for your skill-set, preferences and passions.

I love playing with others, but I also love transcribing from (in my case usually very old) recordings. Though the date of recording is irrelevant; depending on personal interest you could transcribe from an early cylinder recording or a modern streamed track recorded yesterday; the process is the same. It is about as informative as you can get about playing specifics, and also hugely satisfying to convert this transient creative expression to notation form and play this complete and accurate transcription yourself.

Staff paper, a pencil, eraser, slow-downer software, headphones*, a banjo, tuner, and patience (and maybe coffee) are all you need.

Just an idea...

*- optional, but they do prevent a nearby significant other from being driven nuts.

Edited by - EEB on 03/13/2026 10:38:07

jsinjin - Posted - 03/13/2026:  10:39:39

That activity I love! I absolutely love taking tablature or watching a recording of someone playing and converting it to staff notation on a treble clef staff. I do that lots with most tunes I play. I really enjoy that activity.

I took one single summer of piano lessons (that was it at the age of 5) as a kid over 50 years ago and I assumed until two years ago that all music used that notation. I had never heard of guitar or banjo tablature until that time. I truly thought every single instrument was playing music note for note in reading the music from sheet music like part of an orchestra. I had no idea about tablature or playing by ear and when I got my banjo home and started trying to learn I was completely shocked by how it was played and how people learned. I figured it was like learning oboe or trumpet where there was a note signature and you sight read the music. And that’s actually what I wanted to learn. I just picked banjo because I didn’t want to carry a piano camping and at the music store the banjo steings were easy to play. I assumed incorrectly that it was like any other orchestra instrument and one learned to sight read and to watch a conductor and play your part when it came up.

OldPappy - Posted - 03/13/2026:  22:31:06

I have never liked playing in "Jams", just a bunch of folks playing the same tune together just forces one into playing the same tune exactly like everyone else is playing it, which is boring.



It took a number of years for me to get where I could play well enough to do it, but once I got to that point I really enjoyed playing with a good fiddler.



I played a good bit with Ralph Roberts, a wonderful old man who liked the way I played banjo, and I played a lot with Dwight Diller playing fiddle. Ralph would listen to my playing of a tune one time through and then drop right in and play with me. Diller would really push me, driving the rhythm faster than I was used to just seeing how far I could keep up. Playing with those two guys was the best learning I could have ever hoped for. I sure miss them both.



I still don't like Jams, but I can finally play well enough with others. I particularly like picking with a small group, maybe a fiddler and guitar player, and I like picking and singing with a small group around a campfire or in the kitchen.



But even if you never get to the point of enjoying playing with others, the beauty of old time string band music is you can play tunes for your own enjoyment without any need for accompaniment.

Edited by - OldPappy on 03/13/2026 22:32:45

Owen - Posted - 03/14/2026:  17:33:43

John, does "I don’t enjoy listening to music of any type except [...] the Cliburn pianists .... " mean you don't enjoy listening to the music (?) you make on your banjo?  If that's the case, it seems to me that the evening jamming at the camp this summer [regardless of the level, how they're organized/presented, etc.] would be some type of torture test. 

I understand/get your desire to analyze/memorize long sequences of data (?), and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see evening camp jamming contributing to that goal/desire.  However, I fully respect your choices, even if they make me "wonder," and I do acknowledge that what I see/understand/get is irrelevant.    I do hope things go well and are productive for you.

I did attend one banjo camp several years back that did have a few evenings of slow/beginner/instructional jams.  Though my contribution (?) was minimal at best, I still enjoyed the music that was produced by the others, but it doesn't sound like you will have that to look forward to.   But, but, but, otoh, the food at the camp I attended was top notch!      

jsinjin - Posted - 03/14/2026:  18:30:06

I’m actually going to the Midwest banjo camp because my teacher is one of the instructors and because one of the people I follow a lot on YouTube whose style I like is also an instructor. There are supposed to be jams and music every evening and I will try to play especially with those tunes I’ve memorized. If the jams are of the type that are “guess the tune and try to join in even if you have no idea what tuning we are in and have never heard the song before” I’ll probably just sit and politely listen.

But there are several sessions on theory and many sessions for beginners. I have my doubts about the food being fabulous as it’s in a college dining hall. It will be palatable but likely nothing to write home about.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/15/2026:  11:14:57

As a banjo player who primarily plays bluegrass, but likes to explore clawhammer and old time music on occasion, I feel like the latter lends itself to playing alone more than the former. I pretty much hardly ever try to play clawhammer when playing with others. Clawhammer is more something I like to do on the front porch before supper. If I couldnt, or didn't want to play with others, I would play clawhammer old time music.

Edited by - BG Banjo on 03/15/2026 11:19:26

MagicalSquash - Posted - 03/18/2026:  04:55:15

“I hate music and I hate people. I’ve decided to attend banjo camp. I sure hope there won’t be any jamming going on there. Any tips for me here on this music lover’s site?”

HSmith - Posted - 03/18/2026:  05:32:16

I'm with Laurence on this. I love playing with others, but they need to be competent musicians and have a good understanding of how instruments interact with each other in a bluegrass context. For me, worthwhile bluegrass is thoughtfully arranged and intelligently played with the over-arching aim of producing good music. Far too often (IMHO) jams descend into testosterone-fuelled ego-trips and good music disappears out of the window.

I don't think that's an "old man's" view (although I am indeed old). I think we should all respect the music we play.

Edited by - HSmith on 03/18/2026 05:33:16

jsinjin - Posted - 03/18/2026:  06:10:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by MagicalSquash

“I hate music and I hate people. I’ve decided to attend banjo camp. I sure hope there won’t be any jamming going on there. Any tips for me here on this music lover’s site?”

---

I'm sure there will be jamming.  I'll try as I usually do.   I'm attending as I said because my teacher whom I take paid lessons from every week and two of the people I pay Patreon payments for monthly are instructors there.   I don't hope there will be jams certainly as I don't like them; every single one I have attended has had people who speak to no one, they all know each other, they start playing songs, it appears random who starts, they all have picks and many I stuments and there are thousands of notes played at a very high speed with seeming no interest in even explaining how the program works.   I can absolutely just listen.   I hear "I wonder what that note is, and that one and that one and that one in rapid fire succession"

I certainly don't hate people although I done like a lot of the mean intentioned sarcasm on this site and other forums people present directed at harming others.

writerrad - Posted - 03/18/2026:  08:01:18

The problem of playing with others is that somehow in the old time and bluegrass music worlds, the approaches that used to be standard that welcomed and cooperated people into figuring out how to play with others have disappeared. Instead, we have the "jams." When a person arrives at a jam with an instrument, she or he is somehow supposed to know what to do, and she or he is supposed to just play. A tune is called, either by turns, and a person is supposed to know how to play along with whoever is playing, particularly a lead instrument.



New people are confused by this because it is confusing and does not make sense.   Seasoned veterans often avoid such jams just because of this.  I know several nationally known gifted well recorded musicians who refuse to "jam" like this even with other professionals, let alone with anyone who walks in the door.

 My experience when I have played with serious professional musicians (I played for a number of gigs about 12 years ago with the Ebony Hillbillies of NY that contained musicians who had won Grammies, been in the Saturday night live band, been on records for decades, and did not play in front of people without being paid) there would be a discussion rehearsing about how we would play each tune.  Even the regulars in that band had been playing together in NYC for years, there would always be a discussion about how we would play each tune, what order the breaks would be if there were to be breaks, and so on. The leader who had been in the Saturday night live band and fiddled his way across Engalnd and Ireland was especially attentive to me, as really an amateurs among pros.



A big part of the discussion was often especially if we were playing at a new venue, which musician should hear which other musician, particularly if there were several monitors. Who needed to hear the Grammy award winning bassist, who needed to hear which of the two percussionists in the band, who needed to hear my banjo. Since I was a fill in, flying up from Florida for travel gigs the regular banjoist could not make due to health , every single tune they would want me to tell them how I wanted to play it if they could change it a little to help me, particularly what I needed to hear, whose break I wanted to follow if I was taking a break. 



These were all mature (I think I and the female vocalist and percussionist were the same age the youngest at about 65 then) and the folks in that band regularly played several times a week if they were in NYC. Yet, there was never an assumption that there was some general way to play any tune, even tunes we played on every single gig or tunes the other band members had played together and had recorded years ago. The leader or whoever took a prime solo would start a discussion about how we would play each tune or song.



Again, this was how professional musicians who had been working since they were teenager who were not senior men and women.



Yet,  a new person, or an old person walks into a "jam" and someone says lets play "Ida Red," and everyone is supposed to know how to play it. I have heard that song since around 1963 in a million versions. LOL Chuck Berry's Maybelline is actual a version of Ida Red that the record company told him to find another name for it.  I would want to know how to play it.



We really need to talk about how we will play each tune, and how to play tunes. Some of our local bluegrass and old time jams in the Palm Beach County area tried to deal with an overflow of new people to jams that had usually contained the same small core of musicians some of whom had played together for decades, by having a pre jam session or in one case on another night where newer people could talk about what to do, and several of the more experienced people, or one guy in the bluegrass group who is a well known teacher of several instruments could talk about what to do.



It can be a problem when you have people of different experiences. The bluegrass jam here in Palm Beach when I started going to it when I moved up here contained people who had played in local bluegrass bands for decades. In the winter with its snowbirds from the North, Canada and Europe, there might regularly be professionals who had been on records wintering in the area. They eventually split up the jam.   One night was for new people to learn and get their chops at a different location with several vets known as good teachers on hand to teach how to play.



The big messy combined jams  do not teach anyone how you actually play in an old time or bluegrass band of 3 to 5 or 6 people. Things I used to do that got raves at the big jams at festivals or banjo camps on the guitar, musicians I admire would have shot me for doing in a band performance or even just practicing at someone's house.



I have mentioned before that at some of the Banjo Camps I have attended they have what is called a "band scramble." At the first night of the camp people volunteer to participate for the rest of the camp in a band, with efforts to divide it equally as possible by instruments. One of the experienced teachers at the camp is in charge of each collection of 4 or 5 participants who volunteer. Each evening of the camp, the each little band gets together and works on the song with the direction of the teacher. You talk with one another and get instruction from the teacher about how to play the tune or song. You have a period to practice it where we can discuss how each other's playing effects the band.   In the final concert of the camp each band plays before all the attendees.



A normal person with good sense should feel awkward and strange showing up at the average Bluegrass or old time jam, even if she or he is an experienced player.  I would not be surprised if many new players go to such jams and feel bewildered or unhappy.  I certainly know a number of very good bluegrass and old time musicians who have made records and taught at banjo and bluegrass camps who refuse to participate in such jams.

Something needs to be done!

Edited by - writerrad on 03/18/2026 08:15:43

goldprof - Posted - 03/18/2026:  08:08:17

I began playing 10 years ago when I was 70 after a long career of being on one stage or another as a consultant, professor, trainer, etc. I love playing leads by myself. I have a live via Zoom lesson every 3 weeks with a wonderful, gifted teacher in Washington state. Because of her I look forward to practicing. I groove on the challenge of learning new music - getting it in my fingers. I have tried but do not enjoy playing in groups - jams, slow jams or even just with another banjo player. Different strokes....

jsinjin - Posted - 03/18/2026:  08:21:04

I think a few tough things for new people starting banjo are

1) there are a large number of new people starting banjo at any given moment on a whim and those people have little experience. If we did a distribution of years of experience playing banjo you would find a tail with the highest number being new people with little experience and then some jumps as the new people drop off quickly if the instrument isn’t for them or they don’t enjoy practice. This bunch of new people leads to trying to find a path.

2) a very common path for expertise in banjo music is community and front porch and group jams and dynamics. It’s a feature of years of experience in the musical genre. Some were taken when they were 5-6 every week to groups playing. If we go to that huge number of people picking up the instrument for their very first time, having no clue which end is the dangerous one and no knowledge of a chord or a song or a tune, there are going to be mismatches between that lack of knowledge and a jam. The experts-and I’m generalizing on this forum-are often very insistent and serious that the best way to learn is to sit and listen at groups who play and try to join in.

That may be true, I’m N of 1 but I have been to several jams and seasons and they are filled with experts in bluegrass music who want to sit and play with people they know at a very elite level, don’t have time for new people learning and want to spend their time playing a style of trading tunes and improvising with other expert musicians. This is just me but as a chemistry professor this would be like telling my freshman chem students the best way to learn is just to sit around the synthesis research lab and watch people run reactions to pick up a very difficult topic.

I admit to not liking jams but I don’t dislike music. I contribute to my teacher with a 1:1 fee for instruction, I pay for subscriptions for Patreon and strum machine and I support music and this forum. But man, these so called “welcoming lets help the newcomer who doesn’t understand music jams that are the best way to learn music theory and how to play” have not been my experience at all. I love difficult topics and project and concepts but listening to a group of musicians start come complex jazz old time hybrid sing with their knowledge of all of the different parts of very difficult compositions and nodding and then they all figure it out while I don’t even know what key they are in or what strings to hit is a huge gap that simply doesn’t seem to be helping me learn to play my banjo. It’s just not fun when you don’t know the songs, can’t recognize anything and even have trouble telling what part the banjo plays in the whole thing.

writerrad - Posted - 03/18/2026:  08:28:22

I enjoy playing with others.   On the other hand to me playing with others : people I have known for a while where we know what we wish to do and not wish to do, and our tastes, and we have worked out tunes.   I find it awkward and a bit unmusical to play with others where there is no discussion or agreement or adjustment about HOW each tune is to be played, and what roles different musicians and instruments should take.  I have been playing this music since the 60s and intensely since I retired about 20 years ago, and there is no general way to play any particular tune, only a variety of different ways to play tunes and songs I know.  I am also schooled in particular roles for different instruments playing bluegrass or old time. and realize there are a variety of roles to play depending on whether I am playing a guitar or banjo or often which banjo I am playing and that each other musician has those choices.

So I get really disappointed or annoyed at the general confusion that jams, especially old time jams can have, where people do not know much what they are doing or are supposed to do.  Nobody discusses these things any more.    Music is cooperative and has to be based on mutual arrangement, agreement, and adjustment.  Yet, there is usually no discussion on how of an infinite number of variables  a tune will actually be played.  It is not just newcomers who feel awkward about participating in jams.   I know a number of professional level, recording, giving classes at banjo and fiddle camps, musicians who absolutely refuse to participate in such jams, as opposed to get togethers of experienced musicians who will discuss how to play.,

Feeling a little weird, or challenged, or strange participating in such jams is a normal healthy reaction of a sensible person, not just the fear of a newbie.

Edited by - writerrad on 03/18/2026 08:29:28

writerrad - Posted - 03/18/2026:  08:53:19

Exactly.  The issue is going from the big awkward jams overflowing with people who do not know what they are doing to get to the real gatherings of more experienced musicians who do know,.   i have been playing old time for about 64 years on the guitar and about 28 years on the banjo.  I do not design or practice my playing for things that work good or get heard well in  a jam of 14 people.  When I first started going to camps and festivals about 20 years ago and chiefly played the guitar, I did things that got over and were popular with whole jams full of people,  They are also things now that I would tell someone who did them to go home and listen to Riley Puckett or Roy Harvey or Joe or John Booker play guitar behind Gid Tanner, Charlie Poole, Jim Booker Jr. or Doc Roberts, except to the crowd involved such names are unknown.,  They would all say who.

These big jams have problems that mean tht the better old time and bluegrass players are not thrilled to play at them,.

wiregrass - Posted - 03/18/2026:  09:45:26

I think I do, having played in a couple of bands, but I got the loudest banjo I could find, so I don't know what others think.

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 03/18/2026:  10:00:29

I think jams might be a good primary learning source for kids, but for adults I'm not so sure. The players I've seen who actually get to be decent players are those who spend a lot of time playing and practicing by themselves. In a 12-person jam I don't know how much learning can take place.

David M - Posted - 03/18/2026:  10:44:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I love playing and practicing my banjo. I find that I hate playing with others in jams or pick ups or any sort of group get together. It’s my least favorite to big to do musically. I know that for most banjo players playing with groups and being part of that music is one of their biggest reasons for playing.



I wondered if there are others like me out there who really dislike jams, music sessions and playing with groups? I know I’m in the minority but I wondered if others enjoy playing clawhammer style but without any need to play with groups and if someone of yall might want to chat and share practice tips and learnings that don’t have to do with fitting into jams and groups playing together?

---

I know what you're feeling, I have mainly played on my own indoors now for over 40 years and enjoyed every minute of it, no awkward moments or dodgy outspoken crowd comments that deflate confidence and interest and no pressure in front of expectant masses. I can also sing to my heart's content to my bare finger style where my banjo would be otherwise drowned out, plus my own style doesn't really fit in with bluegrass pickers. I did play in an open mic club for 6 months but the comments from a couple of attendees were pretty nasty sadly. I'm happy with what I'm doing but sometimes feel it would be nice to play with a guitar player round each others houses for a change.

Mike t123 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  10:56:34

I sort of get your feeling, to me it’s like learning some obscure song that will never be played at a jam setting just for my enjoyment.
I don’t always like some tunes that are always called at the couple old time fiddle type jams I go to a month, but love the visiting and comradery of the group. The summer camps are fantastic, so many new songs, new people, new places, laughter, fun. Music being played is a byproduct!

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/18/2026:  11:34:07

Well everyone at a jam was a beginner at one time and walked into a room full of strangers who were veterans of the jam and felt lost. It is just like walking into that first open mic and not knowing what to expect, standing up on stage for the first time and looking out over a room full of faces looking back, it is uncomfortable, no doubt, but there is no way of getting around it. You gotta begin somewhere, or not. Lots of people enjoy playing if they never have to leave their comfort zone, some enjoy playing because they like being out of their comfort zone. It is your choice which way you want to go, no one else's. You can't blame those who have put in the time to get where they are.

Edited by - BG Banjo on 03/18/2026 11:39:53

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 03/18/2026:  12:04:06

I've never really invited a beginner to a jam with the promise or implication that they would learn anything by going. I just don't know if that's the case. A lot of times people get intimidated and don't come back for a long time.

I wasn't a newcomer to music or bluegrass when I first started attending jams (I had started playing on my own as a personal project with no thought about playing with others). So I wouldn't want to make anyone feel that they should attend a jam to learn how to play music. Of course you do learn a lot by playing with others, but you can learn a lot in the woodshed as well.

suedog - Posted - 03/18/2026:  13:24:00

I appreciate this discussion.

I was already performing in a trio when I decided to take up the banjo. Somewhere in the mid 2000s.

It took at least 2 years for me to incorporate some banjo in with the band (folk pop originals). Mind you I wasn't bluegrassing, Just kind of faking it.

I love playing music in a group but can't  keep up with strangers. Everything was fully rehearsed

I too fear I will never be able to play actual banjo in a Jam (I've been taking various lessons online for years) and I struggle with feeling like I SHOULD!

Anyway...

You are not alone

Mikey333 - Posted - 03/18/2026:  14:50:42

John, I am like you. I have 2 nice Deerings, played daily, but never with other musicians. However, I infrequently play for friends or family, but mostly alone I'm the den, on the back deck, or I take it with me on RV camping trips. I have simply never had a desire to be part of a group; i just like the sound of the banjo and I am always working on a new tune, learning from tabs. I have been at it for years and it is certain I won't change. Like John, I often wonder if other players feel the same. Now I know there is at least one.

jswkingsfield - Posted - 03/18/2026:  16:45:12

Hi there, John -- BG Banjo says it well. It is hard to be starting out, then walk into a jam full of strangers and realize that you have no idea how to do this jamming thing. Particularly if you walk into one with folks who have been jamming together for decades.

Suggest you find some like-minded buddies to learn with. Well known teacher Pete Wernick has a roster of jam teachers in many states. There may be an old-time group in your area or state who can point you in the right direction?

I started in 2010, mid-life, taking a year's worth of banjo lessons from a guitar teacher at the music store where my sons took lessons (the kids thought mom had lost her mind). He suggested that I try jamming at the local big music festival, where I immediately realized I had no idea what to do! Two guys there said I "needed" banjo camp. Banjo camp gave me a glimmer of understanding, plus recommendation for local bluegrass banjo player to teach me. Following year, tried another round of banjo camp and met up with a handful of locals in roughly the same boat. One of the guys organized a private beginner banjo jam group, we chipped in to hire a local bluegrasser as "jam guru" to play guitar and try to guide us (good thing we gave him money, because we were pretty rough starting out). Once we were better, eventually recruited other like-minded non-banjo adults through a couple of other teachers -- we all were middle-aged, wanting to learn something new, and after a couple more years (yes, some beer was involved) we could jam without the jam guru. Most of us are now retired, we still get together, but after more than a decade of learning together can hold our own in most public jams and festivals. It took some work, but it's a fun journey and a great way to meet new friends!

jsinjin - Posted - 03/18/2026:  16:53:22

I am glad to hear from everyone with different perspectives on this subject. I know that I love to practice banjo more than anything else and I like to listen to the way I recorded a song a year ago against that same song again at the same tempo. It’s a lot of fun for me. Learning the circle of fifths, the way that the chords and chord positions are built and even the various tunings have been my favorite parts. I realize that some people love to play tunes. I love to memorize the notes and play a song from memory. And I love to perfect a specific movement by doing it thousands of times and trying to improve it.

Those are the parts of banjo playing that I like. I would never want to be a musician with the idea of playing with others on stage or certainly not earning a Grammy or recording. Music could not be my career the same way that basketball could not be my career. I’m very glad that people love to play basketball, if I played it I’m sure I would want to get good at shooting three pointers or free throws.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/18/2026:  18:01:59

I get it. Years ago I was a so-so casual tennis player. I enjoyed the competition, but not practicing. A friend of a friend was visiting and looking to hit with someone, so got my stuff and found a court. The guy had great clothes and a high-end racquet. Textbook hitting form. I wished I had his strokes. After warning up, we played a set. I smoked him 6-1. He didn’t know how to put his strokes together in a competitive game. I was competitve though technically mediocre. In chatting with him, I found he loved just hitting and working on his form. Playing even an informal competitive game lacked appeal. Between us we might have been a decent club player. Each of us has our own attraction to music, and we shouldn’t feel that it’s necessary to mold our approach to music to either someone else’s or some standard consensus.

Paul R - Posted - 03/18/2026:  18:46:34

Okay, so playing with others isn't axactly your cuppa. Everyone's different, and we should respect that. In sixth grade I was in a choir where one kid stood out front and sang lead. Then he got sick and I was put in that place. So, from then on, no problem performing for others.

Jamming was a little different. I joined a local bluegrass jam here with a small group of fairly competent players, in a quiet setting. Then it moved, more people joined and it eventually became a mess. People didn't understand what skills they should bring to a jam, and "bluegrass" became more of a suggestion. Some of us would split off and go to another room where it didn't sound like everyone was on speed. Mercifully, the jam eventually crashed.

At our Seniors Centre there are two jams that use screens to project words and chords, and they are the worst things happening, where everyone's looking at the screen and not listening, not keeping time. So I started one with no electronics, limited to an enrolment of seven. Now there are some other "themed" jams. I'm at another session where people get hints about what will improve their presence. At my jam I hope to be some sort of mentor, or, with competent players, how to fit my playing into their styles.

I guess one needs to see what different people want to get out of a jam. For some it's social, for some it's finding competent musicians to bounce ideas off, for some it's learning. Your expectations may not be met until you find the jam that fits - i f you find one. And I wouldn't try to fit you into anything. You know your wants, needs, and what to do without. Suggesting things that might fit into your musical approach is one thing, but, in the end, do what you want.

Dale Diehl - Posted - 03/19/2026:  07:09:20

I can relate. I've never gotten comfortable in jams. I know that playing with others is possibly the single most important thing you can do to improve. I also know that has hindered my progress.

Finding a jam/ folks your are comfortable with is the hardest part. Levels of ability, how welcoming the groups are, etc all have a part in how much enjoyment we get out of the experience.

I think Im a pretty social person, but when it comes to getting behind an instrument it can be like torture, for some of us.

I'm preaching to myself when I say, you just need to bite the bullet and keep trying until you find your place. Some one said "Learning to be comfortable and enjoying our music at what ever stage we are at, is an important part of the journey."