pinenut - Posted - 01/18/2026:  19:39:37

So, there I am playing clawhammer at the bluegrass-all-comers-slow-jam.  (I know, but, you run what you brung and it's a good group)  

Afterwards, the mando/tenor/dulcimer player approached me and said that because there is no 'G' note in a 'D' chord that I should not be using my 5th string 'G' note drone.  

UPDATE:  Key of 'D' tune; gCGCD-capo2, 5th-string = A.  2-chord tune: G-chord = G,B,D and D-chord = D, F#, A.

errrrr, I didn't catch this inconsistency initially; sigh.

and that I needed to use closed form chords so that others can hear my chord shifts (I called an old tune that is well played fave at that jam)

and that I should learn another instrument like "guitar" for music theory

and then said that my play style and arrangement was good (sincere).  

__________________________________________________________________________________

I've never heard of not using the 5th string; it's fundamental, right?  How do you even do that in up or down picking?

Is there something useful to be gleaned out of this? 

Edited by - pinenut on 01/20/2026 11:10:10

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/18/2026:  20:03:24

A slow jam connotes players just past the beginner level; this guy’s lack of understanding betrays that. It seems to me your only obligation is to play at an appropriate speed. You are not there to be a chordal rhythm section. You might try to overcome his ignorance by explaining a banjo’s place in a bluegrass band. You might have to bail on the jam if his aggressive stupidity continues.

TimFoster - Posted - 01/18/2026:  21:47:54

Yeah… that sounds pretty uncomfortable and just doesn’t feel welcoming in spirit.

But perhaps instead of you learning guitar… the Hangout sponsors a GoFundMe drive to pay for a (bag)piper to relentlessly follow him around until that drone string sounds pretty good against a D. ;-)

slc - Posted - 01/18/2026:  22:01:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

Afterwards, the mando/tenor/dulcimer player approached me and said that because there is no G in a D/D7 chord that I should not be using my 5th string drone

and that I needed to use closed form chords so that others can hear my chord shifts (I called an old tune that is well played fave at that jam)

It's NORMAL to keep playing the 5th string like you typicaly do. It can depend on how D-ish and extended the chord is - I'll sometimes thumb inner strings (like 4th which is D) or just play notes but it's usually not necessary in an old-time jam. 

Ditto on "closed" chords. While it can depend on the tune, I mostly play partial chords or just strum the top couple strings of a chord (indeed, brushing all four strings is pretty rare in my own playing, and only done for effect). It's also really hard to play a tune melodically well AND also play full chords. All those hammer-ons and pull-offs...

There's the old joke - Q: what's the difference between old-time and bluegrass? A: in bluegrass everyone knows the tune BEFORE they start playing! I've noticed that bluegrass players will often discuss the chords at length before playing a single note, and that the banjo part is more strongly built around full chords moving up and down the neck - ie there is a stronger emphasis on melodic/chordal correctness. Old-time, on the other hand, is more about the rhythm and pulse (traditionally played for dancing) than precise melody and chords.

In your jam, it might be a "when in Rome" kind of thing. Throw in a few more full chords, thumb inner strings instead of the 5th to match the chord - but just enough to fit in without completely changing your playing. 

Texasbanjo - Posted - 01/19/2026:  04:11:27

Well, it's your banjo and you can play it like you want to... within limits, of course. You don't want your backup to interfere with whoever is taking a break, but you can still do pretty much what you want if you do it QUIETLY in the background.

Other than that, it's usually the guitar and bass that keep the rhythm steady and you don't have to just play closed chords as backup. I usually do backup as a combination of vamps, rolls or partial rolls and hot licks at the end of a musical phrase. I'll throw in a few slides to a root note and will do runs up and down to denote chord changes. Again, all this is quietly in the background.

Rusty - Posted - 01/19/2026:  04:19:38

Wow, sounds like a polite yet not subtle way of saying don’t play with us. Start your own jam!

banjered - Posted - 01/19/2026:  06:11:45

Was that guy a leader or a spokesman for the group? Every jam has a right to determine their own parameters of acceptance. You have to figure out if it was just him or if others felt the same way. If so, move on. Some bluegrass jams want a tight bluegrass and some are loose OK. Maybe that guy is just a one-off, a tight, uh, blue-grasser. Good luck figuring it all out!
banjered

KCJones - Posted - 01/19/2026:  08:06:21

Simple. Just ignore him.

Not everyone deserves access to your mind and emotions. In fact, very few people do.

Smile, nod, ignore, move on.

O.D. - Posted - 01/19/2026:  08:29:01

No matter where you go there is always that guy that knows it all and is happy to tell you.

E

Owen - Posted - 01/19/2026:  08:44:50

I'm "STUMPED" by many things about music, so with that in mind    .............  .

Re:  "I've never heard of not using the 5th, string. It's fundamental, right?"

At a jam several years ago, I mentioned that I was too-often accidentally snagging the 5th. string.  One of the other participants asked: "How often do you use it?"            Me: "Oh, not much ... hardly ever."  Him: "Well, take it off."

In the "Playing in different keys" thread, Sherry said: " either use the D, G, A chords and tune the 5th up to A (or stay off the 5th string ), or ."

Sherry for President!!    

Edited by - Owen on 01/19/2026 08:45:51

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/19/2026:  09:03:48

Not to get too far into the weeds theory-wise, but the role of the dominant V chord (D7in your example) is to introduce tension (dissonance) which resolves back to the home chord. This is what makes music “move” and the banjo handles the shifting dissonance/consonance beautifully. So hammer away on that fifth string!

pinenut - Posted - 01/19/2026:  10:30:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjered

Was that guy a leader or a spokesman for the group?

Every jam has a right to determine their own parameters of acceptance. You have to figure out if it was just him or if others felt the same way.

If so, move on. Some bluegrass jams want a tight bluegrass and some are loose OK. Maybe that guy is just a one-off, a tight, uh, blue-grasser.

Good luck figuring it all out!

banjered

---

Hi Tom,

No, not one of the leaders or spokesmen. 

This is a weekly slow weekly jam and they identify as "bluegrass"; every other week we are at the non-profit folk music store/venue.  People play all sorts of instruments and tunes (mostly guitars and I, IV, V); sometimes we even get a concert flute in the mix, he plays a dulcimer or a tenor for "bluegrass".

I work at playing quiet and use the weak finger to play gentle and use a little bit of bare 3F too; I am in the bounds.  I may start carrying a resonator for appearances.  

You'd think that up here in the 'big' city of Portland that the jam scene would be popping; sigh, Southern Oregon (Medford) has a more robust jam scene. 

Moving on is a difficult proposition; any pointers?

The other good option is the OOTFA #7, but, that is currently once a month; not enough.  The Medford district #4 has about three activities a week.  I am lobbying the leadership, but, it takes time to rebuild and expand a volunteer organization.   

Cheers and thank you for the insight.

Edited by - pinenut on 01/19/2026 10:36:22

pinenut - Posted - 01/19/2026:  10:51:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Well, it's your banjo and you can play it like you want to... within limits, of course. You don't want your backup to interfere with whoever is taking a break, but you can still do pretty much what you want if you do it QUIETLY in the background.  I use the weak finger or bare 3F to stay on track with the tune.  Since, the bulk of this group tends toward, hard-to-hear-sitting-next-to-them, volume; I am vigilant and purposeful about my play volume (the dulcimer guy is typical-loud).



Other than that, it's usually the guitar and bass that keep the rhythm steady and you don't have to just play closed chords as backup. I usually do backup as a combination of vamps, rolls or partial rolls and hot licks at the end of a musical phrase.  Yup, thank you for the confirmation.

I'll throw in a few slides to a root note and will do runs up and down to denote chord changes.  This is an interesting communication concept to work into my play... thank you.

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pinenut - Posted - 01/19/2026:  10:57:50

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

A slow jam connotes players just past the beginner level; this guy’s lack of understanding betrays that. It seems to me your only obligation is to play at an appropriate speed. You are not there to be a chordal rhythm section. You might try to overcome his ignorance by explaining a banjo’s place in a bluegrass band. You might have to bail on the jam if his aggressive stupidity continues.

---

Hi Bill,

It seemed off; thank you for confirming that the jam advice was not on target. 

I'll work on it with 'consistency' (boring); we'll get it sorted...

Cheers

Edited by - pinenut on 01/19/2026 10:58:39

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 01/19/2026:  11:06:54

D7 +11
I like 7-11 as much as circle k

jojo25 - Posted - 01/19/2026:  20:00:24

Hi Kam...uh...no...drones are integral to the 5 string clawhammer banjo sound IMHO (and that drone is very much a part of bluegrass banjo playing too...so WTF??)...add a G to a D major chord and you get a modal kind of effect (I know, everything is modal, it just matters which mode you are using at the time)...one of the glories of that G drone...or any drone for that matter...is the ever changing interaction it has with whatever chord is called for at that time in the tune...some will hear those "other" harmonies and be put off....as a banjo player I embrace those "other" harmonies (and I encourage you to do so also)...I work to use drones a lot...sometimes I even use a double drone...like in a lot of G tunes...out of open G tuning...I try to keep a D and a G ringing at all times...and even try to keep a double double drone going when I can...i.e. two different Ds ringing and different Gs ringing....and you can learn theory using a banjo...and those closed chords form can be very useful/fun...but only use them if that is what you want to do...if this is the only session you have access to..well then...maybe you want to be more on the tolerant side...but I doubt you would get anything remotely close to such comments from others at a session devoted to Old Time

banjoak - Posted - 01/20/2026:  02:53:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

So, there I am playing clawhammer at the bluegrass-all-comers-slow-jam.  (I know, but, you run what you brung and it's a good group)  

Afterwards, the mando/tenor/dulcimer player approached me and said that because there is no G in a D/D7 chord that I should not be using my 5th string drone

and that I needed to use closed form chords so that others can hear my chord shifts (I called an old tune that is well played fave at that jam)

and that I should learn another instrument like "guitar" for music theory

and then said that my play style and arrangement was good (sincere).  

 

__________________________________________________________________________________

I've never heard of not using the 5th string; it's fundamental, right?  How do you even do that in up or down picking?

Is there something useful to be gleaned out of this? 

---

There isn't a "g" in the D chord.

The G is the fundamental, the tonic for the "key" of G.  But as far chords, are made of triads from the key (of G) not all of them use a "g" note. A "D" chord is D, F# and A, (D7 with added C note). Adding a "g" to that certainly can change the feel; doesn't always fit, on some songs/tunes perhaps clash; or just take away from the D7 power and function. 

It just depends; song and style; Listen to how each sounds.

Can be just how and/or where it's played. If it's a loud ringing g note vs a more muted percussive sound just to fill the rhythmic.  I sometimes just have thumb go down on it but not release it; or just might not play it loud; quickly dampen the sound with thumb going down, or maybe. As well might just avoid thumb on fifth string for that phrase, instead use drop thumb, or some left hand device.

Edited by - banjoak on 01/20/2026 02:55:50

Dan Gellert - Posted - 01/20/2026:  10:40:07

Trying to eliminate all dissonance from your harmony is like saying the only way you're allowed to cook anything is by boiling it, and that all seasoning is prohibited.

pinenut - Posted - 01/20/2026:  11:19:44

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoak

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

So, there I am playing clawhammer at the bluegrass-all-comers-slow-jam.  (I know, but, you run what you brung and it's a good group)  

Afterwards, the mando/tenor/dulcimer player approached me and said that because there is no 'G' note in a 'D' chord that I should not be using my 5th string 'G' note drone.  

 

UPDATE:  Key of 'D' tune; gCGCD-capo2, 5th-string = A.  2-chord tune: G-chord = G,B,D and D-chord = D, F#, A.

errrrr, a 'G' drone wasn't even possible,

I didn't catch this inconsistency initially; sigh. 

---

There isn't a "g" in the D chord.

The G is the fundamental, the tonic for the "key" of G.  But as far chords, are made of triads from the key (of G) not all of them use a "g" note. A "D" chord is D, F# and A, (D7 with added C note). Adding a "g" to that certainly can change the feel; doesn't always fit, on some songs/tunes perhaps clash; or just take away from the D7 power and function.  Apologies, I under-researched the criticism; see the update above. 

People commonly 'assume' that the banjo has only one tuning (gDGBD), like their instruments, and are unable to comprehend alternate tunings.

It just depends; song and style; Listen to how each sounds.

Can be just how and/or where it's played. If it's a loud ringing g note vs a more muted percussive sound just to fill the rhythmic.  I sometimes just have thumb go down on it but not release it; or just might not play it loud; quickly dampen the sound with thumb going down, or maybe. As well might just avoid thumb on fifth string for that phrase, instead use drop thumb, or some left hand device.  I fall into the light-to-under-droning camp.

---

Edited by - pinenut on 01/20/2026 11:27:11

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/20/2026:  12:08:16

Now if you're playing in a key other than G or maybe C, your fifth string would need to be changed from a G.  Tune it up/down, use a fifth string capo, etc.

What are the Bluegrass banjoistas doing about their fifth strings at this jam?

If you're in the key of G, don't worry about clashing with the D chord. It's calles a "drone" string for a reason.

To paraphrase Bill, it's a beginner jam, and your critic is a beginner.

pinenut - Posted - 01/20/2026:  12:26:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Now if you're playing in a key other than G or maybe C, your fifth string would need to be changed from a G.  Tune it up/down, use a fifth string capo, etc.  The fifth string was pinned to 'A' in this case.  The whole thing is kinda silly.

What are the Bluegrass banjoistas doing about their fifth strings at this jam?  I'm kinda it; the others (1-3) are hit and miss, mouse quiet or break to another group; they don't use alternate tunings.

If you're in the key of G, don't worry about clashing with the D chord. It's called a "drone" string for a reason.  That's what i said, but the seed of doubt was planted and needed to be dug out.

To paraphrase Bill, it's a beginner jam, and your critic is a beginner.  Definitely, ignorant of the how and what of the 5-string banjo; as a mando/dulcimer/tenor player, he's in the intermediate territory.  I think that the source of his behavior had little to do with me.

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Thank you for the insight and especially the confidence.

Edited by - pinenut on 01/20/2026 12:41:18

bosborne - Posted - 01/29/2026:  09:47:17

quote:

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Originally posted by pinenut

 

and that I should learn another instrument like "guitar" for music theory

and then said that my play style and arrangement was good (sincere).  

_________________________________________________________________________________ 

---

This person sounded somewhat credible up until the moment he suggests the guitar. If it's me I'm just nodding my head, focusing on the music.

The question about the high G in the D chord is interesting. There are definitely times when I know my 5th string is not capo'd correctly for the key but I play it anyway because that bit of dissonance sounds right to me, in that tune. This is very tune-specific though.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2026:  10:45:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

I've never heard of not using the 5th string; it's fundamental, right?  How do you even do that in up or down picking?

Is there something useful to be gleaned out of this? 

---

Yes. Beginners (slow jam = beginners) don't always know they don't know what they're talking about. Was this guy Mr. Dunning or Mr. Kruger?

Might be repeating some of what came before, but here's my take.

1. Yes. There is no G note in a D chord. So what? Does this guy play bluegrass banjo? Does he know what banjo players do? Does he think no banjo player at this jam has ever hit an open 5th string on a D chord? Does he not know what Earl Scruggs did on the D chord in the Ballad of Jed Clampett? Is he not aware that even melody notes are not always in the current chord? The core melody notes tend to be, of course. But even then not always. Notes outside the literal chord are not inherently wrong. 

2. The song being in the key of D can make a difference in the effect of a fifth string tuned to G. "Can." Depends on the listener. Some listeners, including banjo players, don't like the sound of G as the open 5th drone when the song is in D. It works great on the G/IV and A/V chords - turning the A into A7. But to some ears, it's jarring on the D as the root chord.

But, with all due respect to jam rules in general, I don't see where it's the role of a jam-mate -- at a beginners' jam, no less -- to tell another player how to tune or play their instrument.

All that being said, it would it do damage to your arrangements to tune your fifth string to A when you're going to play in D without capo?

If you capo to play in D, then you need to capo or retune your fifth string accordingly.

3. As to using closed chords so HE can follow the changes: I don't see it as your responsibility to give him visual cues when what he hears isn't enough. One of the goals of slow jams is to help people develop their ears. You're contributing to his musical education.

All that being said: The etiquette of every jam I ever attended was that the caller of a song announces the key and asks if everyone knows it. If they don't then the caller names the chords, describes the changes, and if necessary demonstrates the changes. But at no jam did I ever infer it was my responsibility to play banjo in a way that helped people see the changes. Sure, it was helpful when I did, but not a requirement.

However: If the song is a vocal number, I might not even play when I'm singing and instead signal the chords with my fingers. This works for I, IV, V. Not so great for minors.

4. Finally, if someone not a jam leader spoke to me at a jam this way, I'd think about getting clarification from the jam leader next time what this group expects from the banjo player who calls a tune. Or talk to some of the other banjo players, keeping in mind they might be beginners.

pinenut - Posted - 01/29/2026:  11:17:18

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

I've never heard of not using the 5th string; it's fundamental, right?  How do you even do that in up or down picking?

Is there something useful to be gleaned out of this? 

---

All that being said, it would it do damage to your arrangements to tune your fifth string to A when you're going to play in D without capo?

If you capo to play in D, then you need to capo or retune your fifth string accordingly.

---

Ken, this is what makes the whole thing sorta-humorous. 

He was assuming that I was playing closed chords out of standard G tuning; thinking that the banjo only has 'one' tuning.

It was a key of D tune and I was in double-C, capoed up to double-D, and the 5th string was nailed two frets up at A.  

There is no G note readily available in aDADE. 

Edited by - pinenut on 01/29/2026 11:29:11

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2026:  11:36:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

He was assuming that I was playing closed chords out of standard G tuning; thinking that the banjo only has 'one' tuning. . . There is no G note readily available in aDADE. 

---

Cocksure, totally mistaken, and out of bounds all at the same time. A trifecta!

Now that I know the whole story, I would have set him straight at the outset, telling him there was no G note fifth string and either telling him I was in another tuning or put him on the spot and ask him if he's aware of alternative tunings that allow banjo players to play the same song in the same key different ways. Also, that clawhammer takes a different approach to these things than three-finger.

Or, at the next jam, when you call a tune that you'll play in other than "standard" G tuning, tell the group what tuning they're in, adding "So if you're expecting to follow the chords based on my fingering, it's not going to be what you're expecting." Probably too subtle for Mr. Dunning.

pinenut - Posted - 01/29/2026:  12:30:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

He was assuming that I was playing closed chords out of standard G tuning; thinking that the banjo only has 'one' tuning. . . There is no G note readily available in aDADE. 

---

Cocksure, totally mistaken, and out of bounds all at the same time. A trifecta!

Now that I know the whole story, I would have set him straight at the outset, telling him there was no G note fifth string and either telling him I was in another tuning or put him on the spot and ask him if he's aware of alternative tunings that allow banjo players to play the same song in the same key different ways. Also, that clawhammer takes a different approach to these things than three-finger.

Or, at the next jam, when you call a tune that you'll play in other than "standard" G tuning, tell the group what tuning they're in, adding "So if you're expecting to follow the chords based on my fingering, it's not going to be what you're expecting." Probably too subtle for Mr. Dunning.

---

Ken, go easy on the guy; we all have 'off' days.

I only know my tiny piece of the whole story and doubt his frustrations had their original source in me.

Thank you for your insight and confidence boost.

This experience has resulted in an overall benefit; it's a good thing.

 

Edited by - pinenut on 01/29/2026 12:47:19

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2026:  13:05:26

You sound much more insightful than I.

I don't read signals or the unspoken so well.

Enjoy.