writerrad - Posted - 12/05/2025:  13:40:01

quote:That Banjo gathering was in part hosted by  Lark Street Music in Teaneck, NJ which someone recommended  earlier in this post.   We had quite a time looking at the banjos and other instruments there. 

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Originally posted by writerrad

This banjo is more or less of a forgery that was put together when in the 1870s the Metropolitant hired someone to buy some banjos. We saw this about 10 years ago when the Banjo Gathering had our annual gathering on Morristown NJ and took a bus over to NYC to the Metropolitan where one of the Gathering's leaders Peter Szego had an exhibition on the history of guitar making in America.  We examined this banjos and others in the Metropitans collection.  It is not a real banjo but something someone put together to get money out of the Metropolitan.



 I do not believe is any more exhibited as genuine by the Metropolitan museum.  Someone  in the 1800s made who was trying to sell this as a fraud to Metropolitan,   The maker attached  what is clearly neck manufactured for a Boucher (a 19th century banjo  Baltimore instrument maker) onto a gourd and sold it as a gourd banjo.  

To add insult to injury,  we recently discovered someone made a copy of this thing and sold it to the Museum for the French Island of Guadaloupe claiming to be a reconstruction of an early banjo from Louisiana, which it is obviously not.



If you go to the Metropolitan Web site you will see Peter Szego's description of it is the most charitable explanation of what this is :

" the two parts were attached by a dealer simply to meet a collector’s request for a gourd banjo rather than to construct a playable instrument. (Peter Szego, 2020)"



To make up for this, I attach a picture of myself in the Tropical Museum just outside of Amsterdam with Stedman's  "Creole Banjo" from Suriname that was probably collected in the 1770s the late 1600s.  It is the oldest banjo we know of.

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writerrad - Posted - 12/05/2025:  14:04:52

I do not mind if someone wants to make a 5 string gourd banjo is that floats their boat.   In the practical world of making music, Gourd banjos started to lose out once the frame headed or hoop headed banjo was popularized by Sweeney and other people because it is an easier instrument to make both on an artisan/ luthier level, an industrial production level,  or just what someone with a few tools could try to crudely make for themselves.

We know the origin of the early gourd banjos and the banjo was in a set of spiritual/religious practices that limited the design of the instruments and dictated the materials and that the designs were based on their originators views of cosmology rather than how to make an effective instrument.  

It was a massive stepforward, and probably why we are here about the banjo that people have continued to redesign and improve the banjo and make it more effective and available.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 12/05/2025:  14:29:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Jon Borcherding

quote:

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Originally posted by Daniel11

I want to play blues on the banjo. I think I want a gourd banjo. I'm a little dkidfidh on buying one because it seems like you have to buy them without knowledge of tone or feel..



But I also know I want as banjo I saw Rhianna Gideon play on CBS Sunday morning I think she called it a " bass banjo" but it's not a bass, it's more of an tenor but aren't most banjos tenor? But it had a deeper tone, just not full on bass.



Can anyone offer any advice?

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The OP begins his post by stating what he wants to do.

He expresses uncertainty about what kind of banjo he can use to achieve his goal.

It seems to me all this bickering about minstrelsy, history and race is entirely unnecessary and not relevant to the OP's question.

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Don't forget that any thread with Joel in it will surely revolve around archaic terminology and pedantic bickering as well as a whole heap of anemoia, and if we're extra lucky we'll get some misstated "facts" regarding US copyright law.

All-in-all a great time all around

bosborne - Posted - 12/05/2025:  14:36:02

quote:

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Originally posted by Daniel11

I want to play blues on the banjo. I think I want a gourd banjo. I'm a little dkidfidh on buying one because it seems like you have to buy them without knowledge of tone or feel..



But I also know I want as banjo I saw Rhianna Gideon play on CBS Sunday morning I think she called it a " bass banjo" but it's not a bass, it's more of an tenor but aren't most banjos tenor? But it had a deeper tone, just not full on bass.



Can anyone offer any advice?

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Daniel,

I think I found the CBS Sunday Morning episode you're talking about, but she only plays for a few seconds. But I think that banjo is the same as this one, which is tuned low, fret-less, nylon strings (I think), with a characteristic peghead:

youtube.com/watch?v=gYDo0ZjXegM

Same banjo?

writerrad - Posted - 12/05/2025:  15:02:48

Joel who is the president of the American Banjo Fraternity, among other things, is one of the most generous and thoughtful people in the banjo world who has done massive research made hundreds of materials from banjo history available to anyone who wants on banjo history.

What exactly does this poster provide, ashamed to use her his or its own name/.

Bronx banjo - Posted - 12/05/2025:  20:45:50

I have questions about some of the terminology used in this thread. I understand that one era doesn’t stop when a new era begins ie., minstrelsy didn’t come to a halt when the classic era began nor did finger style banjo put a halt to stroke or frailing style. But it helps to identify these eras to give us some clarity despite the fact they may be an oversimplification. I have a hard time understanding that the so- called minstrel era extended through the 1970s. Were there two examples of minstrel performances by that time? To me, the minstrel era is defined by its predominance in American culture and was therefore a reality at a specific time.

I also have a question about use of the term “blues” . Was it used to describe the music of Gus Canon at that time or was his music closer to ragtime? It certainly didn’t have the same sound that we ascribe to the blues today. Would the music of Dock Boggs be considered blues? I believe some of his material was influenced by Black performers. Even Salty Dog Blues was originally a blues done by a Black blues singer whose name escapes me.

All this to say that the OP is looking for some guidance about his choice of an instrument and many of the responses on this thread including mine have made the issue overly complicated. Sorry about that.

writerrad - Posted - 12/06/2025:  06:16:38

Lew this would alter the thread, I will email you about this and then we can talk on Zoom or the phone about all this stuff when we have time rather than distracting the whole group. I will send you an email in a few minutes

reubenstump - Posted - 12/06/2025:  11:48:26

quote:

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Originally posted by reubenstump

I respect and appreciate the historians, but it seems as though many times when such a topic is raised (as well as a few times when it isn't, e.g. this thread) the thread turns into an argument between ivory towers, overshadows the original post, and down the rabbit hole we go.



I'm not a fan of a large number of subforums, one for each little topic, but maybe there should be a sort of historical or academic subforum where such discussions and debates can happen without tainting the overall threads about listening, playing, materials, etc.



I don't know how the backroom of BHO works, but at a site I used to moderate threads, or parts thereof, could be moved to a new thread or other subforum as needed.

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It's too late to edit my previous post, but the "Other Banjo-Related Topics" forum seems like a good place, with no new subforum required.

On the other hand, while I'm not an oldtimer here, I don't see it happening.

Edited by - reubenstump on 12/06/2025 12:00:34

writerrad - Posted - 12/07/2025:  19:07:52

From what got from talking to Bob Winans and others of that generation,  there wasn't much continuity and memory r research about the banjo and its history that was useful  other than the degree to which the ABF preserved  the late 19th century and early 20th century "classic banjo smear,"  Take the isssue of "minstrel banjos."

Bob's academic discipline is actually what people in the US were reading in newspapers and books and such in the "era of the early Republic" basically the first 30 or 40 years after the American revolution.  After he got his doctorate some time in the early 70s, he got a grant to survey the holdings of libraries on the East Coast North and South that might have had holdings of  newspapers and magazines and popular literature  from that era to do a survey of them.  Along the way, he looked around for and was among the early folks to find the various minstrel tutors.     While he was doing this, he discovered the many minstrel tutors or banjo tutors of the era of minstrelsy's massive explosion from the late 1830s to the 50s and 60s.

He said the banjo world which didnt exist much had scant knowledge of it.  He said himself he thought it might have been something much like tenor banjo ragtime or such.   It was until this period that a lot of people discovered the early tutors from the 1850s and thereafter.  There are a lot of things in banjo history that no one  knew, because nobody's business was to find it, and it served no apparent purpose.

As I think the first person here who raised the term minstrel banjo, it is quite clear if you go through  hundreds of articles and many advertisement in mid 19th century newspapers and such for banjos, or reviews of banjo players, or ads for the banjo---if you get the NY sports, gambling, and entertainment journal of the 1850s through early 1900s, you can see the Dobson Brothers advertisements promising to send a banjo to  anyone anywhere in the world who will send them the bucks--you don't see the term "minstrel banjo."   No makers advertised them as such.  Even ads you can find which are endorsements by some minstrel, you do not see that.

The term minstrel banjo really arose in the 20th century or 21st..

Gus Cannon did do some work in the equivalent of minstrelsy in big time medicine shows that traversed the midwest and South in trains, but used a Van Eps and later a Gretsch psuedo Bacon Broadkaster, making them minstrel banjos of a type,.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 12/08/2025:  11:06:22

quote:

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

I have questions about some of the terminology used in this thread. I understand that one era doesn’t stop when a new era begins ie., minstrelsy didn’t come to a halt when the classic era began nor did finger style banjo put a halt to stroke or frailing style. But it helps to identify these eras to give us some clarity despite the fact they may be an oversimplification. I have a hard time understanding that the so- called minstrel era extended through the 1970s. Were there two examples of minstrel performances by that time? To me, the minstrel era is defined by its predominance in American culture and was therefore a reality at a specific time.



I also have a question about use of the term “blues” . Was it used to describe the music of Gus Canon at that time or was his music closer to ragtime? It certainly didn’t have the same sound that we ascribe to the blues today. Would the music of Dock Boggs be considered blues? I believe some of his material was influenced by Black performers. Even Salty Dog Blues was originally a blues done by a Black blues singer whose name escapes me.



All this to say that the OP is looking for some guidance about his choice of an instrument and many of the responses on this thread including mine have made the issue overly complicated. Sorry about that.

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Minstrelsy was a popular (and as all things popular-- eventually less popular but persistent) form of variety show entertainment that used the main feature of actors, comedians, dancers, and musicians wearing burnt cork on their faces.  The burnt cork being the defining feature that makes the "minstrel show".

Part of the staying power of minstrelsy was the ability to constantly change and stay up to date while keeping a foot firmly planted in the past.  There are accounts of long running minstrel shows where the audience would shout the punchlines to the end men jokes. Minstrelsy also kept up to date featuring Ragtime and Jazz or any recent popular music or the latest popular songs (even bluegrass).



I suppose that one could try and be more specific, requiring at minimum the end men (Bones and Tambo) and the interlocutor to call it a "minstrel show".  But I would say that any variety show that includes someone wearing burnt cork (even just a single musician) would qualify as minstrelsy.  Taking off the burnt cork and you just have a variety show.  Vaudeville would often feature a single "minstrel" act-- this was a musician, comedian or comic duo, wearing burnt cork for their routine. 

Take Hee Haw.  If you were to take that show, word for word, but have the actors wear burnt cork, you would have a minstrel show.  In fact, Hee Haw ran MANY skits that were right of off the minstrel stage. "I Am My Own Grandpa" is a minstrel show bit.  Pretty much all of the Barbershop routines, and on and on.  

This is why I say that the Burnt Cork makes it minstrelsy. 

The "Black and White Minstrel Show" limped along in England through most of the 1980s. It had been pretty popular and was broadcast on television but was canceled from TV in 1978.  This show maintained all the classic elements of minstrelsy. 

To complicate matters further, some Lions Clubs continue to this day using a "Minstrel Show" (they literally call it this, look it up on youtube) as a fundraiser.  This is basically an amateur variety talent show, but they still call it "Minstrel Show".  They do not wear burnt cork (at least, in the videos I could find they don't), and I did not notice any overt racism, but they do seem to perpetuate misogyny, esp in the ever popular "wife joke". 

KCJones - Posted - 12/08/2025:  13:08:26

Well, we're 3 pages in and the original poster hasn't responded yet. Probably chased off BHO forever.



Great contributions Joel and Tony. You've really helped a lot with the actual question that was asked. Your input is very helpful and not at all just an egocentric circlejerk. We all genuflect at your superior intelligence and vast knowledge. 



Don't you guys have blogs you can post this stuff on? You do realize you can start your own threads if you want to argue about semantics that literally nobody other than you cares about.



Anyway, OP asked for advice on which banjo he should get to play blues on. Let's try to focus the responses on answering that question.

Also can someone please teach writerrad how to use the quote function? Content aside, talk about unreadable...

Edited by - KCJones on 12/08/2025 13:19:09

KCJones - Posted - 12/08/2025:  13:12:21

Oops. Lost myself for a moment. Sincere apologies.



Daniel11 check out a fretless 12" Enoch tradesman. Those things are amazing for blues. You get the fret less sound and the lower end, but they're easier to find and not such a huge departure from standard contemporary banjo design. 

Edited by - KCJones on 12/08/2025 13:17:28

bosborne - Posted - 12/08/2025:  13:34:17

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

Anyway, OP asked for advice on which banjo he should get to play blues on. Let's try to focus the responses on answering that question.

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Not quite KC. He asked 2 questions, one about advice on a banjo to buy for blues and a second one about what Rhiannon Giddens was playing on CBS Sunday Morning. I think she was playing the same one as in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYDo0ZjXegM

Does anyone know what that banjo is?

writerrad - Posted - 12/08/2025:  16:46:11

Several of us gave a descrpition or guess that would apply to the two different banjos Rhiannon used in the clip from a CBS shows and the banjo you showed. I described the banjos that Gus Cannon, the banjoist most associated with the blues we know about used. We also discussed gourd banjo which he also raised.

Old Hickory - Posted - 12/10/2025:  07:13:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Daniel11

Can anyone offer any advice?

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Hi, Daniel.

If you're still following, this Deering Goodtime Americana in the Hangout Classifieds with a low asking price of $600  may be suitable to your needs as a beginning banjo player.

It does not attempt to be an historically or culturally accurate reproduction of the type of banjo discussed at length since you first posted. What it is, is a good looking beginner's banjo with a 12-inch rim that probably makes it suitable for the low-tuned music you want to play. With a nylon strings and a Fiberskyn head it might have a sound very much like you're looking for.

This is a very good price for a banjo that sells for $949 new.

Daniel11 - Posted - 12/14/2025:  19:08:32

quote: Originally posted by bosborne
quote:Originally posted by KCJones
Anyway, OP asked for advice on which banjo he should get to play blues on. Let's try to focus the responses on answering that question.Not quite KC. He asked 2 questions, one about advice on a banjo to buy for blues and a second one about what Rhiannon Giddens was playing on CBS Sunday Morning. I think she was playing the same one as in this video:

youtube.com/watch?v=gYDo0ZjXegM

Does anyone know what that banjo is?

 Thank you for the eggort, but , that is a different appearance on CBS Sunday Morning

Daniel11 - Posted - 12/14/2025:  19:12:17

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

Oops. Lost myself for a moment. Sincere apologies.



Daniel11 check out a fretless 12" Enoch tradesman. Those things are amazing for blues. You get the fret less sound and the lower end, but they're easier to find and not such a huge departure from standard contemporary banjo design. 

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Thanks I will ceck into it

Daniel11 - Posted - 12/14/2025:  19:13:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by bosborne

quote:

---

Originally posted by Daniel11

I want to play blues on the banjo. I think I want a gourd banjo. I'm a little dkidfidh on buying one because it seems like you have to buy them without knowledge of tone or feel..



But I also know I want as banjo I saw Rhianna Gideon play on CBS Sunday morning I think she called it a " bass banjo" but it's not a bass, it's more of an tenor but aren't most banjos tenor? But it had a deeper tone, just not full on bass.



Can anyone offer any advice?

---

Daniel,

I think I found the CBS Sunday Morning episode you're talking about, but she only plays for a few seconds. But I think that banjo is the same as this one, which is tuned low, fret-less, nylon strings (I think), with a characteristic peghead:

youtube.com/watch?v=gYDo0ZjXegM

Same banjo?

 

Thanks for the effort, but diffrent appearancein CVS Sunday Morning

 

 

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Daniel11 - Posted - 12/14/2025:  19:16:37

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Daniel11

Can anyone offer any advice?

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Hi, Daniel.

If you're still following, this Deering Goodtime Americana in the Hangout Classifieds with a low asking price of $600  may be suitable to your needs as a beginning banjo player.

It does not attempt to be an historically or culturally accurate reproduction of the type of banjo discussed at length since you first posted. What it is, is a good looking beginner's banjo with a 12-inch rim that probably makes it suitable for the low-tuned music you want to play. With a nylon strings and a Fiberskyn head it might have a sound very much like you're looking for.

This is a very good price for a banjo that sells for $949 new.

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Thanks, but, Im mot necessarily looking for a starter,it would be my first Banjo, but I am an advanced Guitarist with a specialty in open D and G , I've played on the banjo on many occasions, just not my own.