Cap - Posted - 11/14/2025:  08:00:28

This recording is from 1964 Crowe plays Devils Dream on the last cut track 16. youtube.com/watch?v=RItmt6OxKI...t_radio=1

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 11/14/2025:  08:22:33

Mind blown!

I love the MC. Very Flatt-like!

southerndrifter - Posted - 11/14/2025:  09:36:23

Some years ago, I heard a live recording of Earl Scruggs.......probably from the mid 60s..........where he played a full-blown melodic lick in a song. Now, he didn't play the whole tune that way, but there was no mistaking that what he played was melodic. The lick sounded very "Bill Keithish" which leads one to believe that the different pickers of that era, were all influencing each other!

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/14/2025:  10:44:49

quote:

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Originally posted by southerndrifter

Some years ago, I heard a live recording of Earl Scruggs.......probably from the mid 60s..........where he played a full-blown melodic lick in a song. 

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Sure would like to hear that.

Tony Trischka, who spent some time with Earl Scruggs, said Earl liked hearing melodic style. He just preferred not to play it. I either read or heard (can't remember) a direct quote in which he said something like "it don't pick good." (I'm not disparaging his manner of speaking. This is the quote I recall.) I believe his point was it strayed from the patterned way he picked, which of course was the foundation of his style.

On the other hand, to my ear, Earl's Home Sweet Home and Ground Speed have elements of melodic style in two-note partial chord shapes that ascend or descend or both. They're different from just about everything else he played. Why he didn't do more of that, I guess we'll never know.

southerndrifter - Posted - 11/14/2025:  11:33:20

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by southerndrifter

Some years ago, I heard a live recording of Earl Scruggs.......probably from the mid 60s..........where he played a full-blown melodic lick in a song. 

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Sure would like to hear that.

Tony Trischka, who spent some time with Earl Scruggs, said Earl liked hearing melodic style. He just preferred not to play it. I either read or heard (can't remember) a direct quote in which he said something like "it don't pick good." (I'm not disparaging his manner of speaking. This is the quote I recall.) I believe his point was it strayed from the patterned way he picked, which of course was the foundation of his style.

My hunch is, what Earl meant by that remark (and why a lot of other pickers like Sonny and JD didn't delve in to more melodic picking), it is difficult to accent the downbeat when you pick melodically. In other words, offbeat notes are accented just as much......sometimes more......than the downbeat notes. And having played in a way that accented those downbeats, playing otherwise probably felt foreign to them. One of the best at accenting downbeats while playing melodically, is Alan Munde. I attribute that, to his time working with Jimmy Martin. Jimmy's music is built on accenting the downbeat, so Alan just transferred that approach to his melodic playing. 

I don't recall where I heard that recording of Earl, but it may have been something Doug Hutchens had. At any rate, it was startling when I heard it!

Tractor1 - Posted - 11/14/2025:  11:34:20

Earl had his things to avoid--such as too much if any middle finger on the second string--There was a true friend of his that para/quoted him "it doesn't have rhythm--Which would really be him speaking about his own use of it--

To emphasize melody notes in the right rhythm  place--- when using melodic--may actually be a wimpy attempt---- at dynamic variety--He did say in the book that for some reason --the backward roll was difficult--so you never saw him cut into that as a barn burner-- So he may have shunned the stutter finger patterns ==Melodic style can be musical --but not the kind of music that Earl mesmerized us with--

I ask no agreement

I remember watching JD in a small bar in the 70s and he played all night doing JD/Earl stuff and pulled off about 4 bars of the classic descending stair step scale 

Edited by - Tractor1 on 11/14/2025 11:44:17

chuckv97 - Posted - 11/14/2025:  12:20:53

Somewhere I read that JD got Bill Keith to show him Devil’s Dream. He figured it would make a good “show piece”.
As for Earl, I also read where he said melodic playing didn’t have drive, but coming from the man who loved the forward roll I can understand his point.
(wish I’d kept track of sources for all this info)

lightgauge - Posted - 11/14/2025:  16:38:17

I had not heard the "it don't pick good" quote, but have always felt that way. Thanks for putting the feeling into words!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/16/2025:  06:57:42

I think I remember Tony Trischka reporting that he heard a recording of Earl playing some melodic stuff at home.

The Old Timer - Posted - 11/16/2025:  14:26:44

JD sprinkled the occasional melodic phrase here and there throughout the years; obviously he was capable.

On the clip with this thread, JD is VERY Keith-like!!! BTW his banjo sounds fantastic!

Thanks for sharing this.

banjoez - Posted - 11/17/2025:  08:58:30

Great find. Thanks for sharing!

banjoy - Posted - 11/17/2025:  10:22:59

For about 7 years I picked in a band in east Tennessee with dobro player Monroe Queener, who as a teenager had played in a band with Josh Graves before Josh picked up dobro. Josh played guitar in that band. Only in later years did Josh even mention Monroe. Monroe always told me that Josh picked his brain on how to play Dobro, how he did this or that, please show me that lick, etc.



Thing is, Monroe could play all that note-for-note melodic stuff too. He just preferred not to. When I'd hear Josh on the radio I would swear it was Monroe. To me they sounded the same, because I had heard Monroe play like that. But Monroe did not prefer that kind of playing, he loved the styles of Bashful Brother Oswald, that twangy style. So that's what he mostly played and that's what his audiences wanted to hear. That's what turned Monroe's creative crank and he would tell you so. He loved that twangy way of playing. Worked for me too.



When I published all those practice sessions from 1990 and 1991 with Monroe, it was picked up by some dobro radio show, where I had told them that Josh and Monroe sounded the same to me. They mocked me on air, where I was not present to explain myself (what a**holes for even saying that, after I freely provided them the rights for airplay). Morons.



Anyway, thanks for sharing. That was VERY enjoyable to hear.

Edited by - banjoy on 11/17/2025 10:30:23

Josh Graves & Monroe Queener at a Cas Walker event

 

banjoez - Posted - 11/17/2025:  10:31:33

I've always felt the best way to play a complex tune with drive and emphasis is with some sort of fusion of melodic/scruggs style. It just sounds better than one way OR the other. Pure Melodics can get a bit too much and pure Scruggs can miss a lot of the subtleties of a tune. Munde figured it out. 

Edited by - banjoez on 11/17/2025 10:40:20

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/17/2025:  12:11:50

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I think I remember Tony Trischka reporting that he heard a recording of Earl playing some melodic stuff at home.

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Same here. And I heard it. But I can't remember if I heard Tony play it at banjo camp (I've been to two different camps where Tony taught) or in his ArtistWorks school. Now I'll have to start searching.

Independent of where I heard it, I believe the source is a trove of home recordings of Earl jamming with John Hartford over the years. Sometimes there are other musicians, but mostly it's just Earl and John. Some other person -- known in banjo or music writing circles, but whose name escapes me now -- sent copies of the recordings to Tony, who then spent years transcribing them, teaching some of the rarities in his ArtistWorks school and at camps, and -- not too many years ago -- recording Earl's unknown versions and then taking a show on the road to perform them. Album and show called "Earl Jam." I saw it at the "Square in the Circle" house concert right here in Takoma Park within the past few years.



I recall Tony playing and maybe teaching a version of "Bill Cheatham." Not as full-blown melodic as Ben Eldridge's definitive B part recorded with Cliff Waldron, but unlike anything else Earl recorded. Except maybe Groundspeed or Home Sweet Home. Now I have to search my computer and ArtistWorks to see if I can turn up any of this.

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/17/2025:  12:30:21

quote:

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Originally posted by southerndrifter

My hunch is, what Earl meant by that remark (and why a lot of other pickers like Sonny and JD didn't delve in to more melodic picking), it is difficult to accent the downbeat when you pick melodically. In other words, offbeat notes are accented just as much......sometimes more......than the downbeat notes. And having played in a way that accented those downbeats, playing otherwise probably felt foreign to them.

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I'm going to agree and disagree.

Agree, because the way a lot of people play melodic style, hardly anything seems accented. They may be playing note-for-note fiddle versions, but without dynamics nothing stands out. The listener has to work to hear the melody. And I couldn't agree more about Alan Munde being someone who brings tremendous drive to melodic style and whose playing is not just a stream of notes.

Disagree, because one of the often-mentioned traits of Scruggs-style banjo is syncopation, which in simplest terms is notes in unexpected places. This typically gets interpreted or expressed as emphasizing off-beats, which is part of it. Point is, Scruggs style doesn't just emphasize down beats, but emphasizes occasional off beats. Or shifts melody notes one eighth note (or sixteenth, depending on how you count) forward or back to better fit a roll.

But this is more a fine-tuning than disagreement.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/17/2025:  12:41:40

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I think I remember Tony Trischka reporting that he heard a recording of Earl playing some melodic stuff at home.

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Same here. And I heard it. But I can't remember if I heard Tony play it at banjo camp (I've been to two different camps where Tony taught) or in his ArtistWorks school. Now I'll have to start searching.

Independent of where I heard it, I believe the source is a trove of home recordings of Earl jamming with John Hartford over the years. Sometimes there are other musicians, but mostly it's just Earl and John. Some other person -- known in banjo or music writing circles, but whose name escapes me now -- sent copies of the recordings to Tony, who then spent years transcribing them, teaching some of the rarities in his ArtistWorks school and at camps, and -- not too many years ago -- recording Earl's unknown versions and then taking a show on the road to perform them. Album and show called "Earl Jam." I saw it at the "Square in the Circle" house concert right here in Takoma Park within the past few years.



I recall Tony playing and maybe teaching a version of "Bill Cheatham." Not as full-blown melodic as Ben Eldridge's definitive B part recorded with Cliff Waldron, but unlike anything else Earl recorded. Except maybe Groundspeed or Home Sweet Home. Now I have to search my computer and ArtistWorks to see if I can turn up any of this.

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I also forget who gave that material to Tony, but IIRC it was someone who used to contribute regularly to Banjo NewsLetter. Last year at IBMA Tony did a presentation about that material, and he played a few things from the recordings that were real eye-openers--nothing melodic, but some stuff that was shockingly unlike anything I'd ever heard from Earl.

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/17/2025:  13:06:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I also forget who gave that material to Tony, but IIRC it was someone who used to contribute regularly to Banjo NewsLetter. Last year at IBMA Tony did a presentation about that material, and he played a few things from the recordings that were real eye-openers--nothing melodic, but some stuff that was shockingly unlike anything I'd ever heard from Earl.

 

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Could it be Wayne Shrubsall?

That's a name I associate with tab publishing over the years. He used to write for (or publish?) Muleskinner News, which is one place I used to see his tabs. I think I wrote to him way back in the '80s. About what tab or song exactly I don't remember. Maybe I have the publication wrong.

If not Wayne, it's someone else associate with publishing, because now I'm remembering that whoever it was that sent Tony the recordings, it was someone I'd heard of and possibly even written to back in the 80s or 90s (because I used to do that pre-Internet).

banjoy - Posted - 11/17/2025:  13:22:27

Sometimes I make posts that in retrospect I ought not to have. As I read my post above, it's one such instance. Oh well, live and learn. My apologies to all.

But I truly did enjoy hearing Crowe play melodic. That was some real ear candy for sure.

Tractor1 - Posted - 11/17/2025:  14:03:03

been thinking the thing Joe Z already said--
my tunes that are my closest to being music will have places where chords happen for a few notes then scale runs for a few --Fiddle tunes never stick to either--It all works good together
Celtic /Irish genres usually keep their tempos down some --It gives the music time to adjust and lengthen ornamentation in wider time spans--Pure note for note fiddle tune copys would live better in slower tempos--but for me it becomes harder when dropping down from say 130bpm to104 BPM--the notes I touch too lightly are even more difficult--than flat out bashing thru--In the end the slow versions -- can be more musical-much more

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/18/2025:  09:11:10

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I also forget who gave that material to Tony, but IIRC it was someone who used to contribute regularly to Banjo NewsLetter. 

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Could it be Wayne Shrubsall?

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I just remembered it was Bob Piekiel.  I think he  wrote the Scruggs Corner column in BNL.

John Hartford had given Bob cassettes of his Earl jams for safekeeping. Bob copied them to the now legendary thumb drive he sent to Tony. I don't think this was totally out of the blue, because Tony and Bob were working together to correct the sometimes grossly inaccurate tabs in Hal Leonard's just-published Earl Scruggs Banjo Songbook (the one that was pulled from the market as soon as it was released not too many years ago).

1935tb-11 - Posted - 11/19/2025:  08:31:27

JDs version is where i learned devils dream. or one just like it, i don't recall for sure who was picking it but the version on you tube is the same as the one i learned it from.

if you listen to JD warming up before they start he is laying down some quick melodic runs.

one thing for sure is JD was one of the greatest banjo talents to come down the pike in history of american banjo. if not the greatest. many apologies to earl.

Edited by - 1935tb-11 on 11/19/2025 08:36:42

banjoez - Posted - 11/20/2025:  13:16:49

Yeah, the more you listen to JD the more you appreciate what a great talent he was right from the start. Talk about drive, tone and clarity. Whenever I need to remind myself what real drive is I listen to the original "Sophronie" with Jimmy Martin or "Somehow Tonight" with the Kentucky Mt Boys. His harmony was also sublime.

Edited by - banjoez on 11/20/2025 13:27:37

Mike Rowe - Posted - 11/21/2025:  14:03:03

J.D. did a little melodic at the Roanoke Bluegrass Weekend when I was there. Bill Evans asked him what that was all about. J.D. said he didn't do it, but that didn't mean he COULDN'T do it. He asked Bill why he thought it was call "Crowe-matic".

TimFoster - Posted - 11/21/2025:  16:47:49

Great thread!!! You guys are such a wealth of knowledge, thanks for sharing…

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 11/22/2025:  06:07:49

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I also forget who gave that material to Tony, but IIRC it was someone who used to contribute regularly to Banjo NewsLetter. 

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Could it be Wayne Shrubsall?

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I just remembered it was Bob Piekiel.  I think he  wrote the Scruggs Corner column in BNL.

John Hartford had given Bob cassettes of his Earl jams for safekeeping. Bob copied them to the now legendary thumb drive he sent to Tony. I don't think this was totally out of the blue, because Tony and Bob were working together to correct the sometimes grossly inaccurate tabs in Hal Leonard's just-published Earl Scruggs Banjo Songbook (the one that was pulled from the market as soon as it was released not too many years ago).

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Yes, that's who it was!