GS - Posted - 10/08/2025:  05:54:04

Hello!

I hope I'm putting this in the correct topic place. Excuse my ignorance - I'm new(ish) to banjo and especially tunings - or have a good laugh (at me) if you so desire.

I've finally tried sawmill tuning (gDGCD) after staying in standard tuning since day one. Now here's the questions...

Is there any particular reason why the fifth string is tuned to f for some songs rather than g - I'm sorry but I can't think of a particular song - and does it make much difference? Lastly, are these tunings pretty much interchangeable?

You can stop laughing now 

GS

aaronoble - Posted - 10/08/2025:  06:24:02

The basic answer is that it depends on the key the song is in. The key of G, for example, does not have F in it's scale (G includes F#, not F), so you wouldn't want the fifth string to constantly play that note. F is, however, in the scale of the key of C, for example, and it might sound fine for songs in that key.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 10/08/2025:  06:25:00

I think it's called F tuning. I almost always play in sawmill, it was my real key into playing tunes on the banjo but I've never tried F tuning. Sometimes with the fifth string tuned to F people will capo at the second fret. What I've noticed it that simple changes give tunes a whole different feel. Double C is the same (gCGCD).

GS - Posted - 10/08/2025:  06:32:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

The basic answer is that it depends on the key the song is in. The key of G, for example, does not have F in it's scale (G includes F#, not F), so you wouldn't want the fifth string to constantly play that note. F is, however, in the scale of the key of C, for example, and it might sound fine for songs in that key.

---

Thanks for explaining that, Aaron. I need to learn more music theory but I've just been glad to pick up a banjo and learn stuff and try and retain it. All in good time, I guess.

GS - Posted - 10/08/2025:  06:34:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

I think it's called F tuning. I almost always play in sawmill, it was my real key into playing tunes on the banjo but I've never tried F tuning. Sometimes with the fifth string tuned to F people will capo at the second fret. What I've noticed it that simple changes give tunes a whole different feel. Double C is the same (gCGCD).

---

Thanks, Graham, for replying. I didn't think it'd be as easy/simple as songs being interchangeable! 

jack_beuthin - Posted - 10/08/2025:  06:41:02

George, No laughing and good question. The sawmill tuning (gDGCD) is generally used for playing “modal” tunes in the key of G (e.g., Cluck Old Hen). When the 5th string is lowered to F, the tuning becomes an “F tuning” for playing tunes in the key of F major (not modal).  A critical point here is that the two tunings use different chord forms in order to be played in their respective keys and modes.  And of course, if you capo the F tuning up two frets (including the fifth string, it becomes gEADE, which is an alternate tuning for playing in the key of G major.  Basically, you get a lot of versatility just by retuning the 5th string.

There are other F tunings as well.  You also could start with the standard G tuning and drop the pitch of each string by a whole step (go from gDGBD to fCFAC), but what a hassle!

If you haven’t watched my tutorial videos on the “F tuning”, they may provide some benefit for understanding all this.

F tuning lessons: youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00...RFIcuLi3F

jduke - Posted - 10/08/2025:  06:58:29

Isn't fDGCD one of several different tunings often referred to as Cumberland Gap tuning? I play Cumberland Gap in that tuning in the key of F, however, I capo two (without capping the 5th string) it allows me to play the tune in the key of G.

I don't know if anyone else does this, but that's how so many banjo tunings were developed, players coming up with something that worked for them.

GS - Posted - 10/08/2025:  07:23:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by jack_beuthin

George, No laughing and good question. The sawmill tuning (gDGCD) is generally used for playing “modal” tunes in the key of G (e.g., Cluck Old Hen). When the 5th string is lowered to F, the tuning becomes an “F tuning” for playing tunes in the key of F major (not modal).  A critical point here is that the two tunings use different chord forms in order to be played in their respective keys and modes.  And of course, if you capo the F tuning up two frets (including the fifth string, it becomes gEADE, which is an alternate tuning for playing in the key of G major.  Basically, you get a lot of versatility just by retuning the 5th string.

There are other F tunings as well.  You also could start with the standard G tuning and drop the pitch of each string by a whole step (go from gDGBD to fCFAC), but what a hassle!

If you haven’t watched my tutorial videos on the “F tuning”, they may provide some benefit for understanding all this.

F tuning lessons: youtube.com/playlist?list=PL00...RFIcuLi3F

---

Cheers for the reply, Jack. I did watch the f tuning video a while back, I guess I need to watch it again. Sometimes, for me (maybe others, too) new things can be as clear as mud, ie respective keys and modes, and take time to hopefully sink in. I'm coming to music later in life so it's all new to me. 

Dan Gellert - Posted - 10/08/2025:  10:08:47

It's all about the relationship of each open-string pitch to the tonic ("do", "1", "home") of whatever scale/mode a given piece is in.

In regular sawmill (gDGCD), the tonic is usually the G, so by degrees of the scale, that would be 1-5145. Tune the thumb string down to F, and (again, usually!) your tonic is F, so the RELATIVE tuning changes radically-- 1-6256 (!)

You can also use the 4th string pitch as the tonic, in which case the 4 long strings are 147b1 (the 2nd string is a flatted 7th). The thumb string can be F (the minor 3), or F# (major 3).

Probably too much info right now, but keep at it, and it will start making more sense.

GS - Posted - 10/08/2025:  11:11:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

It's all about the relationship of each open-string pitch to the tonic ("do", "1", "home") of whatever scale/mode a given piece is in.



In regular sawmill (gDGCD), the tonic is usually the G, so by degrees of the scale, that would be 1-5145. Tune the thumb string down to F, and (again, usually!) your tonic is F, so the RELATIVE tuning changes radically-- 1-6256 (!)



You can also use the 4th string pitch as the tonic, in which case the 4 long strings are 147b1 (the 2nd string is a flatted 7th). The thumb string can be F (the minor 3), or F# (major 3).



Probably too much info right now, but keep at it, and it will start making more sense.

---

Thanks, Dan, I appreciate your input. It's complicated! 

Regards

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 10/09/2025:  06:36:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

The basic answer is that it depends on the key the song is in. The key of G, for example, does not have F in it's scale (G includes F#, not F), so you wouldn't want the fifth string to constantly play that note. F is, however, in the scale of the key of C, for example, and it might sound fine for songs in that key.

---

Many modal/pentatonic tunes use a flatted 7th note. When G is the tonal center, the flatted 7th is F-natural. So fDGCD might well work--in an interesting way--for some tunes in G, too.

aaronoble - Posted - 10/09/2025:  07:41:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

The basic answer is that it depends on the key the song is in. The key of G, for example, does not have F in it's scale (G includes F#, not F), so you wouldn't want the fifth string to constantly play that note. F is, however, in the scale of the key of C, for example, and it might sound fine for songs in that key.

---

Many modal/pentatonic tunes use a flatted 7th note. When G is the tonal center, the flatted 7th is F-natural. So fDGCD might well work--in an interesting way--for some tunes in G, too.

---

Absolutely. But the G mixolydian mode is not technically (as I understand it) in the key of G, but rather in the key of C.

Edited by - aaronoble on 10/09/2025 07:41:38

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 10/09/2025:  08:01:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

The basic answer is that it depends on the key the song is in. The key of G, for example, does not have F in it's scale (G includes F#, not F), so you wouldn't want the fifth string to constantly play that note. F is, however, in the scale of the key of C, for example, and it might sound fine for songs in that key.

---

Many modal/pentatonic tunes use a flatted 7th note. When G is the tonal center, the flatted 7th is F-natural. So fDGCD might well work--in an interesting way--for some tunes in G, too.

---

Absolutely. But the G mixolydian mode is not technically (as I understand it) in the key of G, but rather in the key of C.

---

Hmmm--it uses the notes of the key of C, but I rebel at the idea of saying it's IN the key of ce if the tonal center is clearly G.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 10/09/2025:  10:26:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

 

Hmmm--it uses the notes of the key of C, but I rebel at the idea of saying it's IN the key of ce if the tonal center is clearly G.

---

Uh--



"IN the key of C..."

aaronoble - Posted - 10/09/2025:  10:35:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

 

---

Absolutely. But the G mixolydian mode is not technically (as I understand it) in the key of G, but rather in the key of C.

---

Hmmm--it uses the notes of the key of C, but I rebel at the idea of saying it's IN the key of ce if the tonal center is clearly G.

---

Don't rebel against me, I'm not the music police, but I'm also not the only one who identifies a key by the scale, rather then the tonal center; I think that's the whole idea of modes - placing the tonal center at different points in the scale.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 10/09/2025:  11:48:20

Here's a PDF that demonstrates what you get by changing the tonal center. It also shows the 31 chords that are built from the scale notes.

Church Modes

 

carlb - Posted - 10/10/2025:  05:36:49

Back in 1977, I searched for a tuning to play Melvin Wine's "Black Cat in the Briar Patch. It was A modal tuning with the 5th string tuned to G. The tune is in G and C.

1977 Chicago Folk Festival (Melvin Wine - fiddle, Carl Baron - banjo) This is a recording from the Chicago Folk Festival in the winter of 1977 and is from the NPR show "Folk Festival U.S.A.". I was unable to find any other internet sources for this festival save a few YouTube videos of other performers. Banjo - gEADE

Black Cat in the Briar Patch 2

 

GS - Posted - 10/13/2025:  11:22:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

I think it's called F tuning. I almost always play in sawmill, it was my real key into playing tunes on the banjo but I've never tried F tuning. Sometimes with the fifth string tuned to F people will capo at the second fret. What I've noticed it that simple changes give tunes a whole different feel. Double C is the same (gCGCD).

---

Hi Graham, I know I replied to you to say thanks for your input to my question but I wanted to say - and please bear in mind tunings are a new thing to me - I did try the fifth string tuned to f...and it did give a whole different feel.! It was good, a bit strange (to my ears), spooky. It was a bit off-putting but...I liked it! I may just leave the banjo tuned fdgcd for a while. 

Do you mind me asking what style you play in sawmill? It's been two finger thumb lead that I've been learning.

GS - Posted - 10/13/2025:  11:29:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by aaronoble

The basic answer is that it depends on the key the song is in. The key of G, for example, does not have F in it's scale (G includes F#, not F), so you wouldn't want the fifth string to constantly play that note. F is, however, in the scale of the key of C, for example, and it might sound fine for songs in that key.

---

Many modal/pentatonic tunes use a flatted 7th note. When G is the tonal center, the flatted 7th is F-natural. So fDGCD might well work--in an interesting way--for some tunes in G, too.

---

Hi Ira

Please bear in mind alternate tunings are really new to me but I did try the fifth string tuned to f...and it was interesting! It was good, a bit strange (to my ears), spooky. It was a bit off-putting but...I liked it! I may just leave the banjo tuned fdgcd for a while. The few things I play in sawmill didn't sound too bad (!)

GrahamHawker - Posted - 10/13/2025:  11:48:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by GS

 

Do you mind me asking what style you play in sawmill? It's been two finger thumb lead that I've been learning.

---

The first thing I learned was not to get stuck in styles and decided to just play some tunes instead. So it's adapted from my non typical or technical guitar style. Up picking with added open strings, hence my love of modal sawmill tuning, thumb droning on the 4th and fifth string as required or playing tune notes on the fourth as required. Chords played with a clawhammer rake for emphasis or more usually by pinching (plucking strings up with fingers as the thumb plucks down). And for a change hammering usually with two fingers with no thumb involved. And everything always as rhythmical as possible.