jsinjin - Posted - 10/17/2025:  08:17:45

Thanks all! I practice about one hour per day. Always with strum machine for the timing and I usually make notes within a song for myself. I also spend about a half hour per day transcribing songs to sheet music with traditional treble and bass clef because I want to understand and be able to read music. I never practice with tab as my teacher doesn’t like or use tab. I have a teacher whom I meet with weekly and I subscribe to her Patreon and one by tom Collins. Within my practice I typically warm up with a set of scales and banjo Hanon exercises that I developed to make my fingers and hands warm up. Then I like to practice parts of songs with drum machine especially moving between measures. For example I will take a song with a difficult set of measures and work to meorize it through reading and rereading the sheet music then with strum machine on I’ll go from say the middle of measure six through the end of measure 8 about 30x repeating it with an increase in the strum machine beat per minute of 5 beats per minute every four times through. Then I’ll shift to another part of the song. The goal for me is confident memorization of the song end to end and I do that by breaking it into chunks. I have memorized a total of 8 songs now which are all clawhammer style and all old time music. My teacher is a multi decade veteran of both old time music and her own brand of teaching and it works well for me with both her lessons and Patreon. I only miss lessons when she is away at festivals or workshops.

My friend is an audio engineer and not a musician although he appears to have been a round and played with bands for decades. He picked up the mandolin a few months ago and has only been playing it that long. I think his experience before that included amateur music in bands and being around professional musicians as a career with experience in guitar, bass, keyboard, drums and some rather bizarre th in gs he has collected like a moog synthesizer, Hammond organ, theremin, steel pedal guitar and many electric guitars and things like that. His son who was in high school and friends with my son is a professional touring and set musician playing steel pedal guitar in the Texas swing and Texas country and western honky tonk circuit but he personally doesn’t play anything as a musician. I would say he has been playing mandolin and or old time music about three months. Of course his experience is multi decades of being part of music.

My frustration is that between the two of us sitting on the porch at 6 am he seems to pick up on a song instantly. This is in no way meaning that he is an expert at mandolin; he simply bought one, joined a oatreon and started learning. But somehow his brain hears a song, nails what the melody is and notes and chords etc and he just rummages around on the frets and finds it quickly. So within a few minutes of hearing “ducks on the millpond” for the first time he plinks it out.

I spend about 10-15 min looking up the tuning and key that a song is in, then trying to understand what notes are being played first second third etc.

For me to play a new song I take the following approach: I get my teachers instruction then I practice and I take the song and I work like mad with pen and paper and write the song in music notation on bass and treble clef. I do this by watching my teacher or others play it and slow it down to get the music note by note. Then I have sort of ways to convert the music notes from pieces of music notation to the exact fret and string for each note and I memorize it note by note all the way through. That’s my whole process end to end.

Jack Baker - Posted - 10/17/2025:  09:04:15

For me to play a new song I take the following approach: I get my teachers instruction then I practice and I take the song and I work like mad with pen and paper and write the song in music notation on bass and treble clef. I do this by watching my teacher or others play it and slow it down to get the music note by note. Then I have sort of ways to convert the music notes from pieces of music notation to the exact fret and string for each note and I memorize it note by note all the way through. That’s my whole process end to end.

John,

It sounds like you've found a way that works well for you. Keep it up....Jack Baker

Edited by - Jack Baker on 10/17/2025 09:07:23

Jaimie_h - Posted - 10/17/2025:  09:43:26

Hi John,
Here's a couple of thoughts, from a "beginner" who's played for 20 years (I've never progressed very fare due to the demands of my job - which is fine with me, since I love playing banjo even if I'm not great at it!). The key to banjo in my opinion is knowing the roll patterns and being able to smoothly change chords. I've personally never tried to learn songs note-for-note; sounds like this has been your focus and you've made a lot of progress there, but it could well be why things fall apart when you enter a looser environment like a jam session.

First, ask yourself what's your goal in jamming with your friend. If it's to exchange sophisticated solos and sound like a pro, or demonstrate how well you've learned the tune, then you're probably doomed to disappointment. But if it's just to play together and have a good time, I bet you can accomplish this more easily than you think.

A good starting point could be to learn the classic beginner tune "Bile dem cabbage down." It's just G, C and D7 with a standard forward roll pattern. Get so you can play this at a reasonable tempo - and just play it over and over and over (as you said, so you know it in your sleep). Then when he comes over next, set up a metronome at your comfortable tempo, and just start in. Focus on just keeping the chord changes and roll pattern going, and let him do whatever he wants over top of it. After a while I predict you'll start to lock into each other's groove, and hopefully you'll feel that magical sensation of musical communication with another person. If you lose your way, just laugh and start again.

I've personally never had the opportunity for a banjo jam session, but my approach to beginner jams on other instruments is playing something repetitive and simple that might sound boring to an audience, but that brings together the musicians in a way that feels satisfying. Try it and see if it works! And please let us know how it goes.

Jaimie

Bunyip - Posted - 10/17/2025:  09:48:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Thanks all! I practice about one hour per day. Always with strum machine for the timing and I usually make notes within a song for myself. I also spend about a half hour per day transcribing songs to sheet music with traditional treble and bass clef because I want to understand and be able to read music. I never practice with tab as my teacher doesn’t like or use tab. I have a teacher whom I meet with weekly and I subscribe to her Patreon and one by tom Collins. Within my practice I typically warm up with a set of scales and banjo Hanon exercises that I developed to make my fingers and hands warm up. Then I like to practice parts of songs with drum machine especially moving between measures. For example I will take a song with a difficult set of measures and work to meorize it through reading and rereading the sheet music then with strum machine on I’ll go from say the middle of measure six through the end of measure 8 about 30x repeating it with an increase in the strum machine beat per minute of 5 beats per minute every four times through. Then I’ll shift to another part of the song. The goal for me is confident memorization of the song end to end and I do that by breaking it into chunks. I have memorized a total of 8 songs now which are all clawhammer style and all old time music. My teacher is a multi decade veteran of both old time music and her own brand of teaching and it works well for me with both her lessons and Patreon. I only miss lessons when she is away at festivals or workshops.



My friend is an audio engineer and not a musician although he appears to have been a round and played with bands for decades. He picked up the mandolin a few months ago and has only been playing it that long. I think his experience before that included amateur music in bands and being around professional musicians as a career with experience in guitar, bass, keyboard, drums and some rather bizarre th in gs he has collected like a moog synthesizer, Hammond organ, theremin, steel pedal guitar and many electric guitars and things like that. His son who was in high school and friends with my son is a professional touring and set musician playing steel pedal guitar in the Texas swing and Texas country and western honky tonk circuit but he personally doesn’t play anything as a musician. I would say he has been playing mandolin and or old time music about three months. Of course his experience is multi decades of being part of music.



My frustration is that between the two of us sitting on the porch at 6 am he seems to pick up on a song instantly. This is in no way meaning that he is an expert at mandolin; he simply bought one, joined a oatreon and started learning. But somehow his brain hears a song, nails what the melody is and notes and chords etc and he just rummages around on the frets and finds it quickly. So within a few minutes of hearing “ducks on the millpond” for the first time he plinks it out.



I spend about 10-15 min looking up the tuning and key that a song is in, then trying to understand what notes are being played first second third etc.



For me to play a new song I take the following approach: I get my teachers instruction then I practice and I take the song and I work like mad with pen and paper and write the song in music notation on bass and treble clef. I do this by watching my teacher or others play it and slow it down to get the music note by note. Then I have sort of ways to convert the music notes from pieces of music notation to the exact fret and string for each note and I memorize it note by note all the way through. That’s my whole process end to end.

---

Thanks for sharing John. You've got a good work ethic.  Would it be fair to say a lot of what you're doing is visual in nature?. You write down notation to memorise, and seem to work from notation a lot?

Do you record yourself much? I use my phone voice memo app for example.

Im asking a few questions yeah. Our performance is relative to our practise methods imo. My questions just to clarify your learning approach.

Edited by - Bunyip on 10/17/2025 10:32:42

Jaimie_h - Posted - 10/17/2025:  09:49:30

To amend my post a bit - I realized this is posted in "clawhammer" and so not bluegrass style, but the same advice applies. So no need to learn the rolls, just the chords! Even more straightforward.
Jaimie

Julio B - Posted - 10/17/2025:  10:14:27

Never play/practice all by yourself; after getting warmed up, play along with mp3s or any recorded music, slowed down to a speed that is comfortable for you. You were simply not used to the situation; doing the above will erase that problem.

banjola1 - Posted - 10/17/2025:  11:22:20

Hi jsinjin,



Your stated that your friend had, "30 plus years of music from drums to guitar and bass" and that "the mandolin was loud and overshadowed what I was trying to think of next. This is just not for me at all."



I know the feeling. But it's not fair to compare yourself to someone who's had decades of musical experience. My first time playing in public was at a Pizza Parlor and there was an audience of 35+. It was my first time and I was so distracted because it was so new. I could hardly play. After the set, the guitarist came to me and said, "Pat the little stage area where we are playing is about 6 inches high. You were playing in my living room just yesterday and you were flawless. Concentrate and don't let six magical inches get to you. Pretend like you're still in my living room."

It took about 15 minutes, and it worked! My practice kicked in and I learned not to panic and how to "practice on stage." It still takes about 5 minutes for me to settle down in front of an audience.



Every person is different. If I were a beginner and someone who had 30 years of experience was trying to show off, my response might have been, "Say, could I record you playing that so I can listen to it later?"



I believe your experience is valuable! Fun in music happens in its own time. And time is what it takes. But it will happen if you persist.



Hang in there!



patcloud.com

Edited by - banjola1 on 10/17/2025 11:23:49

Bob Corder - Posted - 10/17/2025:  11:53:14

It's a fact that some people are born with more natural musical talent/ability than others, so don't get too frustrated because you can't play like Earl Scruggs. I have come to realize, after many years of trying to play the 5-string banjo well, that I will never be a professional player. I'm satisfied with being able to play (not well) a dozen songs and impress those who can't play any musical instrument! :)

Owen - Posted - 10/17/2025:  15:53:56

.... or even as well as Earl, the schmuck from down the street. [Not a call for help... just a c'est la vie observation.]

[When god was handing out brains, In thought he said "trains" ... and I missed mine.   ]

BACook - Posted - 10/17/2025:  18:44:46

Hi John,
I feel your pain. I have been playing banjo for 10 years now and I still struggle in jams and playing with others. While I have good timing and a good ear for music, I play slower than most so I frequently get lost in a jam. But, I can wait until the chorus or next verse and jump back in. If it’s too fast, I play a simple roll and skip the solos.

What I have noticed in your posts is your dedication to perfection and understanding the song, how it is put together, chords, timing, etc. and this could also be part of your problem. When you study/memorize a song a certain way, it sticks in your head that way. As soon as someone plays it a little differently your brain has a seizure and stops working. Then you get frustrated, everything tightens up and you quit. At least that’s what happened to me.

So may I suggest; try building your song by learning the simplest version first (chords and timing). Pick out a few videos of the song and learn to play with them. I also use Strum Machine, and it’s great BUT, you are not developing your ear because it plays the same way every time unless you change it. Real musicians rarely do. Learning from videos trains your brain to expect differences and skip ahead if you get lost. Once you can strum or vamp without thinking about it, try moving your chords up or down an octave. Once you learn that move up and down the neck when you vamp. Then try rolling to it, when that’s easy, learn the solo.

This might take days or weeks at first but you will find the more songs you learn, the easier it gets and pretty soon, you are picking up songs with ease. Then, when you play in a jam or with your friend and something trips you up (song is to fast, solo you’ve never heard, key you don’t know well, somebody threw an extra lick or two in there, etc) you can revert back to that simple strum or vamp and still be part of the song.

You don’t have to be perfect to play as long as you enjoy it. It will come, sometimes it just takes a little longer than we would like.

Best of luck to you!
Beth

Paul R - Posted - 10/17/2025:  22:42:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by BACook

... When you study/memorize a song a certain way, it sticks in your head that way. ...

---

A common challenge. I played clawhammer at a bluegrass jam. Having learned certain fiddle tunes from old tabs (John Burke, Ken Perlman, etc.), I soon realized I needed to simplify, since the jam needed basic backup, not some solo full of notes. That solo stuff could be saved for an actual solo. It's good to find various versions of songs/tunes and work out your own arrangements (and not just one). And it doesn't have to be complicated. It's a voyage of discovery, which is fun in itself.

jcrowban - Posted - 10/18/2025:  09:05:53

quote:Originally posted by jsinjinMan, I had a friend come over this morning who is part of my workout crew. He just picked up mandolin and for all disclosure he does have 30 plus years of music from drums to guitar and bass as an audio engineer. But he has had his mandolin for a couple of weeks. We tried to play together the song cluck old hen which I can play in my sleep and it was horrifying. He picked it up in seconds and I was collletely lost. I couldn’t get through a single measure. I had no idea what was coming next, the mandolin was loud and overshadowed what I was trying to think of next. It was like there was no context, no way to even guess what note I was on, no way to figure out what part of the song I was in. I finally just put it away. This is just not for me at all. I was almost nauseous trying to keep my head in what I was doing. I don’t think anything I could do or practice could ever overcome the significant confusion, lack of context and total gap between what note and finger I’m trying to play vs what he was doing so naturally.

jsinjin - Posted - 10/18/2025:  09:27:17

That last post is my frustration. I don’t think that my workout buddy is trying to show off or overshadow me. He is also not what one would call a musician; an engineer who works in the music and performance business but was also in high school and college bands in drums which is experience that I definitely did not have. The stress is the rate of his playing and improvisation and lack of mistakes in a song that takes me multi weeks to even get through the first few measures reproducibly on an instrument he has been playing for weeks against my nearly two years of weekly instruction and daily practice and then the comfort with which he just naturally plays. I know it’s “normal” to be uncomfortable playing with others. But comparing this to something like a fun run-you can run a 5 km race with a thousand other people some of whom are so elite that they finish in under 15 min and yet you all finished the exact same race, distance, course and similar steps. I feel like showing up at a music jam if compared to a fun run, I have no idea what direction I am going, how to take a step, I keep bashing into other people, my shoes are tied together and my contribution is such that I hindered everyone around me. Contrasting. That to my first fun run, I practiced for several months, showed up and executed flawlessly never having run with any of these people before and with zero mistakes. That’s my frustration; I have no context for what other people are doing, how to keep up, what direction I’m supposed to run etc. its like the fun run has been superimposed with a complicated dance everyone else already knows step for step, if you get in someone’s way the wntire thing collapses and you just have to figure it out and it might change randomly so you need to adjust and react no matter what and your practice isn’t really what is important to getting good at running.

jcrowban - Posted - 10/18/2025:  09:27:36

Slow down and don't bite off more than you can chew. You can't compete with 30 years of experience in a short time. play a few songs a hundred times over to etch your memory. Have fun, don't turn it into a job. There is a lot of theory to understand everything about music. There are fantastic players that play strictly by ear that can outplay musically educated people. We are our worst critics when it comes to music.

Lorilee - Posted - 10/18/2025:  17:06:53

If you don't usually play with others, when you finally do, it can really mess you up. It's easy to get flustered, self conscious, and nervous. Especially if you're trying to play with someone who is less experienced than you. You may think that you should be able to take the lead, but then you fall apart. It's just the pressure you are putting on yourself. I am very familiar with this phenomenon because it has been my problem, too, for a long time. The only cure I know of is to find a friendly jam when beginners and those of us who are having issues are welcomed. It's working for me. Best of luck to you, and don't give up!

Nopix - Posted - 10/18/2025:  17:10:40

What am I missing? A chord formation in one's left-hand, and going 'bum-ditty, bum-ditty,' with the right-hand until the chord changes?
This tuning thing, is complicating something that should be simple.
What is wrong with basically strumming a chord progression (could be 2 whole chords!) in rhythm until it feels like music? Nobody I play with plays note for note, unless they're taking a solo.

David M - Posted - 10/19/2025:  14:16:59

You should have strummed the chords while he played the tune and then swapped rolls and you taken a turn of the melody. Don't be discouraged by this one experience and throw away a great pastime on one bad early session. I have had my banjo next to me for over 40 years now and play it most days, the best thing I've ever done. I'll never be a great player but acoustic music is one of life's joys, don't throw it away because of early frustration, we've all been there.

Edited by - David M on 10/19/2025 14:18:35

gregkise - Posted - 10/20/2025:  15:35:55

FWIW -- I think the issue may be that when we start out playing banjo, we often learn a song by playing TAB first. But we don't really know and understand the song.

I think a better approach to learning any song is:

1. Listen to the song over and over (include different versions). Make sure you can hear and predict the chord changes.
2. Start just playing the chords. Easy, basic, backup playing. Roll the chords. Predict the changes.
3. Next pick out the melody. It's almost always a pentatonic scale. So now that you know the key and the chords, pick out the melody. Again, play with it so you know your way around.
4. Now combine them. Find the chords, play some melody lines. Again. just play with it.
5. Finally, if you're so inclined learn a TAB based break.

I guarantee that if you start with the TAB, but don't know the song, you will forever be trapped into somebody else's lead that you learned from TAB and will stumble if the song deviates even a bit.

But the good news is if you learn the song FIRST, then when you learn a break you'll know where it fits, what parts of it you like (and what you don't), and how you can use the break to augment your own lead.

Now -- when you know the song, you'll be able to carry the mando. Because at the end of the day what's important is who you serve as a banjo player (and it's not yourself).

Hope this helps! Good Luck!

pinenut - Posted - 10/20/2025:  16:36:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregkise

I think a better approach to learning any song is:



1. Listen to the song over and over (include different versions). Make sure you can hear and predict the chord changes.  true

2. Start just playing the chords. Easy, basic, backup playing. Roll the chords. Predict the changes.  how does this work with clawhammer?

3. Next pick out the melody. It's almost always a pentatonic scale. So now that you know the key and the chords, pick out the melody. Again, play with it so you know your way around.  how does this work with clawhammer?

4. Now combine them. Find the chords, play some melody lines. Again. just play with it.  fair enough

5. Finally, if you're so inclined learn a TAB based break.  with clawhammer, this is usually the melody plus ornamentation.



I guarantee that if you start with the TAB, but don't know the song, you will forever be trapped into somebody else's lead that you learned from TAB and will stumble if the song deviates even a bit.  this is true enough even when you know the tune.



Hope this helps! Good Luck!

---

Hi Greg, 

Please forgive me for being forward and direct; my questions are sincere and may have philosophical errors (help shift the questions/statements to a more functional viewpoint).

This is a good description of the tune learning process using three finger rolls.  Learning what the tune is supposed to sound like is a critical first step. 

Help me understand how this works with clawhammer.  Running chords and a bum-ditty or drop thumb pattern just end up as a wall of noise when the melody is missing.   Three finger is that way too, but, it's supposed to be a wall of noise that supports a band.   Playing chords is probably decent support if a melody instrument is there to be supported, but is infinitely boring if you are playing with yourself; which is most of the time.  I think everyone knows how hard it is to find a partner to play with; keep it realistic.

For me, or "so I have read", clawhammer is not typically played with whole chords.  It's one or two strings being fretted at a time (melody) and lots of ornamentation or punctuation that supports the melody (aka: the fiddle) or is whole unto itself.  How do chords fit into the old-time banjo thinking pattern?  or how do I make chords work, sound right and be an independent instrument?

It's pretty rare, for me, to have the melody naturally insert itself without memorizing "somebody else's lead that I learned from tab", usually several somebody else's.  "Pick out the melody" makes sense with three finger because of the nature of rolls ending up on the right strings regularly; add emphasis on the right string at the right time dun.  Clawhammer sorta-sticks to the same strings for an idle bum-ditty or drop thumb pattern.  How do you "pick out the melody" with clawhammer?

What is being communicating between the lines? 

Edited by - pinenut on 10/20/2025 16:49:21

Jack Baker - Posted - 10/20/2025:  16:49:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jack Baker

For me to play a new song I take the following approach: I get my teachers instruction then I practice and I take the song and I work like mad with pen and paper and write the song in music notation on bass and treble clef. I do this by watching my teacher or others play it and slow it down to get the music note by note. Then I have sort of ways to convert the music notes from pieces of music notation to the exact fret and string for each note and I memorize it note by note all the way through. That’s my whole process end to end.

I did not write this post. An error somewhere....Jack Baker

 

Edited by - Jack Baker on 10/20/2025 16:51:47

gregkise - Posted - 10/20/2025:  17:07:18

Hi Greg, 

Please forgive me for being forward and direct; my questions are sincere and may have philosophical errors (help shift the questions/statements to a more functional viewpoint).

This is a good description of the tune learning process using three finger rolls.  Learning what the tune is supposed to sound like is a critical first step. 

Help me understand how this works with clawhammer.  Running chords and a bum-ditty or drop thumb pattern just end up as a wall of noise when the melody is missing.   Three finger is that way too, but, it's supposed to be a wall of noise that supports a band.   Playing chords is probably decent support if a melody instrument is there to be supported, but is infinitely boring if you are playing with yourself; which is most of the time.  I think everyone knows how hard it is to find a partner to play with; keep it realistic.

For me, or "so I have read", clawhammer is not typically played with whole chords.  It's one or two strings being fretted at a time (melody) and lots of ornamentation or punctuation that supports the melody (aka: the fiddle) or is whole unto itself.  How do chords fit into the old-time banjo thinking pattern?  or how do I make chords work, sound right and be an independent instrument?

It's pretty rare, for me, to have the melody naturally insert itself without memorizing "somebody else's lead that I learned from tab", usually several somebody else's.  "Pick out the melody" makes sense with three finger because of the nature of rolls ending up on the right strings regularly; add emphasis on the right string at the right time dun.  Clawhammer sorta-sticks to the same strings for an idle bum-ditty or drop thumb pattern.  How do you "pick out the melody" with clawhammer?

What is being communicating between the lines? 

---

---

Hi Kam,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

1. I didn't actually see this as being specific to any particular style (Scruggs vs Clawhammer). Now I'm not a clawhammer player, but I've heard good and bad clawhammer players, and I think the principles above are still the same. 

2. I think the principle is the same. Listen. Learn the chords so you know the song. Then pick out and learn the melody. 

3. Ultimately any instrument is there to support the other instruments. There really is no "independent" instrument. Understand your function and the whole jamming experience will open up. At least that's what happened for me. 

4. Even if you aren't playing complete chords with clawhammer. You are still playing within a chord framework. Even if you're playing just two notes, then you essentially have a double-stop. Still a chord (or partial chord). Think about a fiddle, they are not playing whole 3-note chords. But they are definitely playing within the chord framework (maybe the 1-5 or 1-3 of a chord).

5. I guess I don't fully understand not being able to find the melody. It's there underlying the music. It is in the chords. You will almost always find the main melody notes in the chord itself. If you know the melody then you can target those notes within the chord (if that makes sense). 

I hope that helps some...

Nopix - Posted - 10/20/2025:  18:17:06

Chords are a harmony structure to play in harmony with the melody. Sometimes the melody is within the chords notes. Sometimes not.

If one is operating a melodic instrument or playing something that can do both chords/harmony and melody, one should know where the SCALE of the given key resides. Show me where the Doe-Ray-Me is, I can go from there. So when you change tunings for different keys, the scale moves around. That can't help someone just learning how to flesh out a melody. Then muddy up the water more by introducing minor keys. Just as well learn tunes in Ebminor. This is what makes fiddle and mandolins easy. Moving from A to D keys is simply moving over a string. The scale is straight forward. Wherever it starts. I know old time clawhammer players play comp chords too, because they comp (accompany) chords for fiddlers.

Edited by - Nopix on 10/20/2025 18:18:35

Owen - Posted - 10/20/2025:  18:17:42

Greg, are you familiar with jsijin's story/background?   He's posted it numerous times.

Anyway, though I can't answer for him, your approach/advice sounds pretty conventional to me.  For some  "conventional" doesn't work .... some can't reliably hear/predict chord changes [even if/when they can hum or sing a song].  And "figuring out" or "finding" the melody simply isn't on .... that skill just isn't part of the person's makeup or being.

[Though people typically say "everybody's different," and "we all learn differently," the fact that (some) people can't/won't accept ^^ difference(s) is kinda perplexing to me .... I suppose it'd be frustrating if I'd let it be.]

And I guess it bears repetition, ^^  just my c'est la vie observation/realization, not a call for help or referral to a teacher/program/method ... been there, done that.  

pinenut - Posted - 10/20/2025:  19:22:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by gregkise

Hi Greg, 

---

---

Hi Kam,

3. the whole jamming experience will open up. At least that's what happened for me. 

---

Would you share the time frame and your experience or story while it happened for you?

jsinjin - Posted - 10/20/2025:  19:50:30

This is a forum on playing advice for clawhammer banjo. It is more than reasonable that the advice given is on playing clawhammer banjo. I’ve learned a whole lot about clawhammer banjo that I would never have known if I had not started playing and being on this forum. I have found that I love practicing with my banjo and I do it every day. I’ve also learned that I don’t play well with others literally and not only that I don’t enjoy playing with others. I do enjoy playing though. And yes many people learn thjng differently: I prefer to read and write everything while others prefer to watch videos or practice with other people in groups. I think that to sound good with banjo, practicing with others leads to being part of a song with a group and that’s a lot of fun for many people. I liken it to boxing or running marathons; it’s for some people and not for others and that’s ok.

I don’t think my frustration with playing with my friend will ever go away because I just don’t like the feeling of trying to play with another person or group. Like a breakup, “it’s not someone else it’s me.” I am not just frustrated by trying to play with another person or group, there are many many many things I would rather be doing than trying to play with others. That includes practicing, learning music theory, recording myself playing and then many other activities besides banjo. And it’s absolutely true that I’ll never be a professional musician. That was never a goal. I recall reading in the earliest days on this forum someone posting “I’ve never seen any professional banjo players playing from tab”. I’m sure that’s true. I suppose if my goal was to be a professional musician I would be sad but I’m a late 50s professional with several hobbies including practicing banjo. I don’t feel sorry that I don’t learn by hearing a song and figuring it out. It has been a disappointment that what I thought was the way to learn music wasn’t the best way but that’s ok.

Unless someone else has frustrations with playing with others, I’m gong to stop reading and replying to this post. I do appreciate all the insights but I think I’ve gotten everything I can from it.

ALCO - Posted - 10/20/2025:  23:09:26

Try this. Read from Preface to page 13 and start playing from page 14. You will find plenty to analyse and you can keep a log of your progress.



archive.org/details/Wm.C.Stahl.../mode/1up

Edited by - ALCO on 10/20/2025 23:13:28

Owen - Posted - 10/21/2025:  10:34:45

I suppose ^^ is mainly for jsinjin's benefit, but nevertheless I did read the preface and looked at the subsequent stuff to know that it's light years beyond where I'm at.

However this tidbit from the preface resonated with me 100%: "The pupil admires the skill of the teacher who so materially lightens his labors by INTELLIGENT answers to the betterment of his musical education."   

jsinjin - Posted - 10/21/2025:  10:45:06

quote:

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Originally posted by ALCO

Try this. Read from Preface to page 13 and start playing from page 14. You will find plenty to analyse and you can keep a log of your progress.



archive.org/details/Wm.C.Stahl.../mode/1up

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Wow!!!   THAT ancient print is exactly what I imagined banjo or any music learning would be.   I've been personally trying to create exactly the materials in this book for myself from the very start of picking up the instrument.  This is what I absolutely wanted to learn most of all!   Thank you thank you!   This is my Rosetta Stone!  Missing link!   It's my periodic table of what I was trying so hard to understand between my banjo and how music really works.   If I had only had this study from day 1 I don't think would have had any complaining at all!   This is like a true textbook that explains the details.   I felt like I was in chemistry lab as a freshman student learning all there was to know by watching other people run reactions with no benefit of the periodic table and no understanding of all the principles!   Thank you so much.  I'm going to go on the hunt for an actual out of print copy of this one.   I can't express how much I appreciate this.

jsj

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/21/2025:  11:11:32

The Stahl method is teaching what is now called “classic banjo”. This is something the OP specifically stated had been ruled out.

ALCO - Posted - 10/21/2025:  12:01:09

John, I am very pleased for you, as I imagine many who have followed your posts, will also be. Please don't think of your experience so far, as having been a waste; everything you've learned is valuable, even if it is in contrast to what you will soon discover about 'classic banjo'. Do have a look at this forum for guidance and advice
classic-banjo.ning.com/www

pinenut - Posted - 10/21/2025:  14:58:21

quote:

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Originally posted by ALCO

John, I am very pleased for you, as I imagine many who have followed your posts, will also be. Please don't think of your experience so far, as having been a waste; everything you've learned is valuable, even if it is in contrast to what you will soon discover about 'classic banjo'. Do have a look at this forum for guidance and advice

classic-banjo.ning.com/www

---

Hi Ian,

I have been very interested in playing out of single tuning, gCGBD, for my entire banjo duration; these method books stop me cold.  

Musical notation works great and makes sense on a fife, fiddle or piano, not so much on a banjo.  Translating it into tab would take forever and probably isn't the point.  I have a thousand questions; here are two.

How do we translate notes on a staff to physical positions and fingering in real time?   ...or how do we assign strings and positions to notes in a practical manner?  There must be a mental method or process that makes this work...  Right?  What is written between the lines?

Is this where the fingerboard note stickers come into play?   Do these actually help; I use side markers and generally view watching my fingers as a bad practice (like typing).

Cheers, Kam

Edited by - pinenut on 10/21/2025 15:03:28

pinenut - Posted - 10/21/2025:  15:35:22

quote:

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Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

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Originally posted by ALCO

everything you've learned is valuable, even if it is in contrast to what you will soon discover about 'classic banjo'

---

Hi Ian,

I have been very interested in playing out of single tuning, gCGBD, for my entire banjo duration; these method books stop me cold.  

Musical notation works great and makes sense on a fife, fiddle or piano, not so much on a banjo.  Translating it into tab would take forever and probably isn't the point.  I have a thousand questions; here are two.

1)  How do we translate notes on a staff to physical positions and fingering in real time?   ...or how do we assign strings and positions to notes in a practical manner?  There must be a mental method or process that makes this work...  Right?  What is written between the lines?

2)  Is this where the fingerboard note stickers come into play?   Do these actually help; I use side markers and generally view watching my fingers as a bad practice (like typing).

Cheers, Kam

---

question clarification note:  Musical notation for banjo appears to be mapping a location on the staff to an ordered set of letters, which needs to be memorized both directions intuitively,  and then mapping the letter to a location(s) on the fingerboard. 

How does this happen without significant lag?  What am I missing?

Edited by - pinenut on 10/21/2025 15:38:34

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 10/21/2025:  17:03:16

quote:

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Originally posted by pinenut



question clarification note:  Musical notation for banjo appears to be mapping a location on the staff to an ordered set of letters, which needs to be memorized both directions intuitively,  and then mapping the letter to a location(s) on the fingerboard. 

How does this happen without significant lag?  What am I missing?

---

I haven't done it on banjo (yet), but 2c from someone who has learned this on another instrument -- it becomes automatic with practice.

If I look at written music, I couldn't quickly tell you what the notes are.  But I can sight-read it on clarinet.  I look at the page, and my fingers play the right notes.

Often there are multiple ways to play the same note (especially on a string instrument), but I think it's either obvious from context, or something you figure out after playing a piece a couple times.

Edited by - A Drum On A Stick on 10/21/2025 17:05:28

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/21/2025:  17:05:44

quote:

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Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

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Originally posted by ALCO

John, I am very pleased for you, as I imagine many who have followed your posts, will also be. Please don't think of your experience so far, as having been a waste; everything you've learned is valuable, even if it is in contrast to what you will soon discover about 'classic banjo'. Do have a look at this forum for guidance and advice

classic-banjo.ning.com/www

---

Hi Ian,

I have been very interested in playing out of single tuning, gCGBD, for my entire banjo duration; these method books stop me cold.  

Musical notation works great and makes sense on a fife, fiddle or piano, not so much on a banjo.  Translating it into tab would take forever and probably isn't the point.  I have a thousand questions; here are two.

How do we translate notes on a staff to physical positions and fingering in real time?   ...or how do we assign strings and positions to notes in a practical manner?  There must be a mental method or process that makes this work...  Right?  What is written between the lines?

Is this where the fingerboard note stickers come into play?   Do these actually help; I use side markers and generally view watching my fingers as a bad practice (like typing).

Cheers, Kam

---

Get the Mel Bay Banjo Method by Frank Bradbury.  Open to page one.   Start as if you have never touched a banjo in your life.  Work page to page through the entire book.

These are instruction books.  They teach you everything, including how to read.  That is what makes them "instruction books".  No need "translate to tab". No need for stickers.

"Musical notation works great and makes sense on a fife, fiddle or piano, not so much on a banjo."

This statement is absolutely false.   

 

And there are tens of thousands of pieces of music that prove it.  Hundreds of folios and collections.  

 

You only need to learn to read once.  These instruction books will teach you how to play along with notation.

The only thing that makes this process difficult is when someone already knows how to play banjo.  Ego can get in the way of starting at page one.

pinenut - Posted - 10/21/2025:  18:31:05

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by ALCO

J

Hi Ian,

I have been very interested in playing out of single tuning, gCGBD, for my entire banjo duration; these method books stop me cold.  

Musical notation works great and makes sense on a fife, fiddle or piano, not so much on a banjo.  Translating it into tab would take forever and probably isn't the point.  I have a thousand questions; here are two.

How do we translate notes on a staff to physical positions and fingering in real time?   ...or how do we assign strings and positions to notes in a practical manner?  There must be a mental method or process that makes this work...  Right?  What is written between the lines?

Is this where the fingerboard note stickers come into play?   Do these actually help; I use side markers and generally view watching my fingers as a bad practice (like typing).

Cheers, Kam

---

Get the Mel Bay Banjo Method by Frank Bradbury.  Open to page one.   Start as if you have never touched a banjo in your life.  Work page to page through the entire book.  Yup, I have had this book for more than a few years.  I appreciated the link to the Stahl method; it's a little better than Bradbury's book.  Thank you.

These are instruction books.  They teach you everything, including how to read.  That is what makes them "instruction books".  No need "translate to tab". No need for stickers.  I have no master, nor access to one.  My questions are sincere.

"Musical notation works great and makes sense on a fife, fiddle or piano, not so much on a banjo."  This statement is absolutely false.   Show me.

 

And there are tens of thousands of pieces of music that prove it.  Hundreds of folios and collections. You only need to learn to read once.  These instruction books will teach you how to play along with notation. You are singing to the choir; I am already on board.

The only thing that makes this process difficult is when someone already knows how to play banjo.  Ego can get in the way of starting at page one.  Ehhhh....?  My ego is big and wide, but these things are not what is getting in the way; I wish they were.  

My questions are sincere.

---

Hi Joel,  Thank you for responding. 

How does a person make it thru the first few pages?   

Some small piece is locking me out.

Edited by - pinenut on 10/21/2025 18:47:04

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/21/2025:  19:36:15

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/21/2025:  19:37:52

And here is a bunch more. They all will work.

archive.org/details/@joel_hook...-notation

jsinjin - Posted - 10/21/2025:  19:46:30

We may want to move this to a different forum.

To answer some questions, I’ve spent the last year learning how to convert videos of people playing into standard musical notation. Then I learn to memorize that and read it and translate it. And I love it.

And this book which I printed but feel bad for doing so is written for that. It’s not specifically clawhammer but I can adapt. I love this!!

pinenut - Posted - 10/21/2025:  21:32:08

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Home Studies Lessons for Banjo, U.S. School of Music

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Thank you.  This one fills enough of the gaps I have been looking for and <woof> I am a bad fit for this method.  Dunno what my good fit is, but, not this. 

gCGBD is still an interesting concept and this book has good supplemental information. 

ALCO - Posted - 10/21/2025:  23:39:52

Hi Kam,

Open the link below and look at the 'signs used for fingering' on page 6, then play through the 6 exercises for right hand. Then, in regard to your first question, carefully follow the instructions on page 7, provided for playing the scale of C. Although Ellis did mention it on page 5, remember to use your thumb to strike all of the notes on the 4th and 3rd strings, your first finger to pull the 2nd string and your middle finger to pull the 1st string. As you will see, each finger of your left hand and each fret, is clearly marked (mapped) for the notes on the stave, such that you (simply) play what is written. It is from this point onwards that you will begin to correctly place your left hand fingers as you recognise and memorise each note. The next illustration on page 8, shows the simple chords for the key of C. When you are able to form the shape of each one separately, spend some time learning to move smoothly from one to another, using the 2nd exercise 'accompaniment', before attempting the exercise 'arpeggios', which introduces the right hand moving in a regular, repeating order. The 'breakdown' is made up of the same chord shapes and requires the right hand to play the strings in an irregular order. Play it both with and without the dotted rhythm. The exercise for the thumb string is again, based on the chord shapes, with emphasis on the right hand movements. Do look at the fingerboard and where your fingers are landing on it, as you work through the exercises and also at your right hand, if you need to. As far as any time lag is concerned, it diminishes as you become more adept at matching what you see and what your hands have to do, exactly as Ian A Drum On A Stick said.



I apologise if this appears to be too simplistic or states the obvious, but also hope it goes someway towards helping you make a start using notation on the banjo. If it does, I suggest that you use the Stahl book for a while, to continue playing in the key of C, rather than continue with the Ellis tutor, that introduces other Major and minor keys.



Feel free to message me here, or on the Classic Banjo Ning forum.



archive.org/details/champion-t.../mode/1up

Edited by - ALCO on 10/21/2025 23:54:52

Owen - Posted - 10/28/2025:  13:17:00

This popped up today. youtube.com/watch?v=c8ue5Tomse...p;index=7



I'm not trying to influence anybody's thinking, but it made me think of what jsinjin isn't aspiring to.



[And as an aside, I think the sum of the ages of all the banjo players is less than my age. ]

 

Edited by - Owen on 10/28/2025 13:18:03

Owen - Posted - 11/06/2025:  15:21:03

I'm not being critical of anybody's choice in music an/or methods, but listening to this youtube.com/watch?v=DsxHi2Ga98...t_radio=1 this afternoon reminded me of John's goal of playing around the campfire.  I said to my wife: "Maybe I should practice this for when we go camping."   Her succinct response: "Harrumph!! Not very likely!!"