Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  00:15:19

"The banjo is primarily a rhythm instrument." Pete Seeger

"Tunes are vehicles to play rhythm" Dwight Diller

"You cannot find the old time groove unless your approach to the music is first and foremost rhythmic." Tim Jumper

DerekGoodman - Posted - 09/21/2025:  02:16:16

Are there bots on this forum now? Is this an AI post?

GrahamHawker - Posted - 09/21/2025:  04:01:46

Of course it's a rhythm instrument. Otherwise the playing styles wouldn't be fundamentally based on repeated patterns. Even when playing melodies it's still typically very rhythmical and bluegrass breaks don't dispense with rhythm. And in jazz it does a lot of rhythmical strumming. I watch a lot of Tuba Skinny and when the song is sung the wind and brass keep quiet, except the tuba or sousaphone, and the banjo, resonator guitar and washboard player keep the rhythm going, the guitar also being often rhythmical. This is why the banjo is so great. But you can do lead lines in jazz solos and Irish tenor is mainly about playing single note melodies.

I'm sure there are less rhythmical styles (classical banjo?) and people trying to expand the range to actual classical music (mainly with limited success because the banjo isn't great for that).

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/21/2025:  04:19:27

Lets face it: all instruments are rhythm ones. It's how the rhythm and melody are put together that makes a song... a good song, a bad song, a mediocre song.

Rhythm is a MUST. Without it you don't have music, you have noise.

In a jam and/or band situation, every instrument is part of that rhythm. We need the beat of the bass to keep us steady. We need the boom, chuck of the guitar, the vamp of banjo and mandolin. Without that again, we have noise.

KCJones - Posted - 09/21/2025:  05:20:42

Agreed, all instruments are rhythm.

Everyone's heard the phrase "the wrong note at the right time is better than the right not at the wrong time."

A snare drum hit 440 times per second produces an A note.

Tractor1 - Posted - 09/21/2025:  06:10:05

music moves from point to point--rhythm is the structure of the points=

in other words -- places to travel to and from--like the rungs of a ladder or a flight of steps-- our muscle memory requires exacting repetition of the layout--in order to not make a mis step--

playing solo proves a banjo can put forth enough melody and rhythm to get by but it can be made into bigger sound with other instruments

Edited by - Tractor1 on 09/21/2025 06:12:45

Eric A - Posted - 09/21/2025:  07:42:13

This is why my Seeger basic strum works just fine for me if I just want to sing a song. (Which I mostly do). Bum ditty, baby!

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/21/2025:  08:32:23

The banjo is the banjo. How you play it is up to you.



(Btw, "rhythm instrument" in a jazz/pop/contemporary context will likely be understood to mean "an instrument of the rhythm section," which often includes drums, bass, guitar, and keys) 

banjered - Posted - 09/21/2025:  09:32:37

Ever try to play with a fiddler who is missing the beat? At a jam a while back the fiddler was having a little trouble getting into the beat so I started playing a little louder than usual emphasizing the beat. A gal sitting next to me angrily growled," You are not in sync!" Fortunately I don't think she had concealed carry, but yeah, rhythm is an essential, period. banjered

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  11:32:45

Yes, the banjo is a drum, a stick, and some strings. The construction shows that the banjo is indeed a rhythm instrument. And......it seems that most folks on this forum tend to agree somewhat with my initial hypothesis. Which I find interesting in light of the fact that when I watch some YouTube videos of claw hammer banjo players, the rhythm is ragged at best. They seem more interested in trying to play every note a fiddle plays, and they forget that the banjo is not a fiddle, nor should it be subservient to one. The banjo is a complex instrument with a drone string and 4 strings to play some melody and harmony, while keeping rhythm dominant. A perfect example of this approach would be the playing of Richie Stearns of Clifton Hicks which shows that the most important of rhythm is drive, the key ingredient that makes the audience tap their feet or  want to get up and dance. 

Edited by - Mister Lucky on 09/21/2025 11:44:04

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/21/2025:  11:47:57

It's less of a hypothesis and more a prescriptivist assertion. Different ways of playing are appropriate for different musical contexts. And there is always room for individual taste/style. If everyone played in exactly the same way, it would be boring.

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  12:06:22

Banjo Boyd. An hypothesis is an idea being tested, and I am testing my idea on this forum among banjo players. You also said that if everyone played in the same way it would be boring. And yet that is exactly what is happening. Most clawhammer banjo players play over the scoop, avoid thumping with the thumb on the drum head, choke the banjo with a capo when playing in double C, and play as many melody notes as humanly possible. If a non banjo player is listening to a banjo playing fiddle tunes, it begins to sound all the same very quickly, and the audience looses interest. Of course, if that is the approach one wished to undertake, be my guest.

martyjoe - Posted - 09/21/2025:  12:50:41

It’s interesting how a few posters have eluded to the bass as being fundamentally a rhythm instrument. Acoustically it could be argued that a well made banjo bass is louder than any guitar bass and just as loud as a double bass, yet we see very few of them in the wild.

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/21/2025:  12:52:38

The idea being tested presupposes that there is a "right" and "wrong" way to play, and furthermore that the "right" way is somehow inherent to the physical instrument itself.

Rather than me explaining why that is not the case, I would encourage you to reflect on it and imagine how it might apply (or not) to other instruments and areas of music. I would also advise everyone to be critical of appeals to authenticity ("I do X in a more traditional way / learned X from a more traditional source, therefore my X is better than everyone else's). 

Homogenization/standardization in old-time music is a real phenomenon, but it's not unique to the banjo. And if we recognize that a lot (I don't know about "most") OT banjoists today play in a similar way...well, maybe they like playing that way. It doesn't mean they're ignorant of how older generations played. You're also framing this in terms of performing for others, and I would guess that's not relevant for a lot of OT musicians; they do jams/festivals for their own enjoyment.

Edited by - banjoboyd on 09/21/2025 12:57:54

TimFoster - Posted - 09/21/2025:  13:00:25

Welp… I’m off to learn Van Halen’s “Eruption” on banjo….

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  13:07:23

Banjo Boyd:" Many Ot musicians play for their own enjoyment." Well yes, it is important to enjoy one's own playing, and yet it is important to convey some sense of "feeling" to the listener. And no, I am not suggesting there is a right or wrong way to play, it all depends on the end game. However, the current OT banjo scene does in fact imply that there is a right way to play, because so many are taking the same approach that I have previously described.

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/21/2025:  14:01:52

The current OT scene implies the emergence (or shifting) of a standard approach and sound. But the existence of a standard does not mean anything that falls outside the standard is wrong or undesirable. In fact (and this goes back to appeals to authenticity), the perception of being non-standard is quite intentionally cultivated by many musicians/artists to grow their professional brand. 



The standard in question -- which I would describe as "plunky, clean, and technical"* -- is inseparable from the historical trajectory of OT music post-folk revival, particularly the popularization of the Round Peak style and the growth of the festival scene. For whatever reason, playing clawhammer solo or behind other instruments (as opposed to playing fingerstyle and/or singing while playing and/or providing accompaniment for dancing) became a focus of performances and competitions at festivals, and so there was a push to develop clawhammer in a more technical or "refined" direction. And it's absolutely true: people derive pleasure from coming up with technically clever ways of rendering fiddle tunes and such on the banjo, and other people (mostly other banjoists) derive pleasure from hearing all those variations. 



It is what it is. There are also plenty of people who play OT music in their own way but who have no interest in the jam/festival scene. And that's fine, too. Why pass judgment one way or the other? What is accomplished by doing so? 





*(We see this reflected in banjo manufacturing as well. Shorter scales, wider fretboards, relatively large rims, bridge positioned in middle of head, scoops; all of this diverges from historical designs and is specifically a response to players wanting "that" sound)

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  14:12:58

Banjo Boyd: "Passing judgement." Life requires constant evaluation and conclusion. We must pass judgment many times during each day. The current belief that passing judgment is somehow wrong, flies in the face or reality. And yes the current crop of OT banjo players want a certain sound, but perhaps that is more to do with the human need to fit in. As an aside: go to youtube and watch any jam of OT players, then watch a video of Richie Stearns and the Horseflies preforming cluck old hen. The first group example wants to fit in, and the Sterns video shows musicians burning down the house. To each his/her own, but I know which is of more interest to me, and which example conveys a more powerful feeling from the performer and the audience.

banjoboyd - Posted - 09/21/2025:  15:41:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mister Lucky

To each his/her own, but I know which is of more interest to me, and which example conveys a more powerful feeling from the performer and the audience.

---

Which is fine; we all have our preferences. So I'm unclear what point you are trying to get across here. I could just as easily say that the Horseflies are kind of fun for a minute or two and then I get bored of the "jam band"-y dynamic. That's my honest feeling about it; am I wrong? 



This is also comparing completely different musical scenarios. One is a band of clearly skilled musicians who practice together, who have worked up arrangements of various tunes, who perform those arrangements on stage and through a sound system for an audience...The other is an informal gathering of musicians of various skill levels, who have potentially never played together, who are attempting to have a spontaneous musical conversation with one another, where outside observers are largely irrelevant...

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  16:46:16

Banjo Boyd. To each his/her own, and all comparisons are valid, whether you see it or not. Now, I think we have said all there is to say to each other. Good luck in your journey.

TScottHilton - Posted - 09/21/2025:  21:31:29

This is a great topic. Scruggs style banjo is so different than any other bluegrass instrument. All the others tend to either play rhythm, or lead, but never at the same time. The other instruments have defined techniques that differentiate when they are playing rhythm. The mandolin chops, the fiddle chucks, the guitar boom-chucks, and then when they take a break, they play a very linear interpretation of the melody. But the banjo can roll all the time. It can roll during backup, or it can roll during a break.

That's what's neat about a banjo and a banjo roll. It can drive the rhythm in a very specific way while still conveying the melody. It can be a rhythm and lead instrument at the same time. Of course you can fingerpick a guitar which incorporates a bass line and the melody, but traditionally you don't get the same syncopation that you get with a Scruggs style roll.

Clawhammer is another animal altogether of course. But it lends itself in an easier way to playing backup to other instruments or to one's voice.

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/21/2025:  21:54:49

T Scott Hilton. Thanks for appreciating the topic I have presented. And.....You make some very good points and I totally agree.

Barnacle Joe - Posted - 09/21/2025:  22:24:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

Rhythm is a MUST. Without it you don't have music, you have noise.



In a jam and/or band situation, every instrument is part of that rhythm. We need the beat of the bass to keep us steady. We need the boom, chuck of the guitar, the vamp of banjo and mandolin. Without that again, we have noise.

---

There's plenty of wonderful music, easily recognized as music, in free time.  Including band situations.  Admittedly very little includes banjos.

KCJones - Posted - 09/22/2025:  05:14:00

Ah, I see. Just another "you're playing it wrong" thread. You're not saying anything novel or clever.

 

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/22/2025:  11:13:33

KCJONES said: "You are not saying anything novel or clever." If I am allowed to hold you to the same standard, are you saying anything novel or clever? I think not. At least I am willing to engage in conversation, and am respectful of any differing viewpoints whether I agree with them or not.

Owen - Posted - 09/22/2025:  11:23:20

Tongue-in-cheek, so long as we have the tried-and-true, "elevate myself by denigrating somebody else" to fall back on, I don't see much need for novel or clever.   

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:04:35

This topic has the potential for some interesting discussion. Personal attacks and rudeness make me want to go elsewhere.

what's the matter with everyone? We assert our opinions on this forum and someone with a different opinion doesn't make them your enemy or the object of ridicule. 

Edited by - Laurence Diehl on 09/22/2025 12:10:10

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/22/2025:  12:48:58

Well said Lawrence, and I totally agree. Opposing viewpoints make for an interesting discussion. The problem arises when one chooses to implement the lawyer tactic: When you cannot defeat the viewpoint, attack the person.

Owen - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:03:36

Why is there such a widespread [perceived?] need to "defeat" [and defeat mightily, I might add]?   Does that vary from tribe to tribe? 

Edited by - Owen on 09/22/2025 13:05:17

TimFoster - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:05:05

I follow the line of thinking that banjo is flexible enough to be what you want it to be — a lead instrument capable of delivering whatever melodic information you wish to convey, or a percussive instrument focused on establishing and supporting the pulse of a tune… or more likely, some combination of both.

That said, I randomly came across a Rick Beato interview with Bela Fleck last night — and Bela was somewhat aligned with the OP’s point of view (not that he’s a clawhammer player, but…) Despite his melodic meanderings he views the banjo as a percussive instrument, going so far as to say he established his musical relationships with Victor Wooten and Chick Corea through their shared sense of and appreciation of rhythm— and citing their connection as rhythmic players as the primary reason these collaborations worked.

So — there’s one random nobody’s opinion on the matter I guess.

KCJones - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:06:26

If you want good discussion you should avoid characterizing an entire subset of the banjo scene as playing it the wrong way. You've gotta expect some pushback when you speak so strongly about things. And if people disagree in their response, consider their position rather than arguing against it. You speak with a tone of finality that makes me think your mind is not open to considering other viewpoints.

The fact that the banjo sounds best when it's played in tune and on time doesn't make it a rhythm instrument. It just means that music sounds best when it's played in tune and on time.

The truth is, there's really no such thing as a rhythm or melody instrument, when it comes to most instruments anyway. There are rhythm and melody sections in an ensemble, there are rhythm players and melody players. Most of the time, everyone is a rhythm player and they take turns playing melody. But the instruments are agnostic, they can do either one with ease.

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:08:41

Tim Foster: Rich Beato has some interesting interviews. I enjoy his channel.

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/22/2025:  13:10:48

KC jones: You are attempting to justify personal attacks. Of course you are free to do so, but it is unseemly and unnecessary. And...if you do not like what I have to say, please feel free to ignore it. 

Edited by - Mister Lucky on 09/22/2025 13:13:06

KCJones - Posted - 09/22/2025:  16:07:29

"Let's have a discussion" then "If you disagree, don't respond". Getting mixed signals here. I hope you see my point. No offense intended.



Notice that I did respond to your original thought with my previous comment. The idea of "rhythm" and "melody" instruments is fairly contemporary it seems to me, and it seems like more of an aspect of subculture/tradition rather than intrinsic properties of the instruments themselves. Especially in traditional ensemble playing where all instruments take turns playing melody and lead, or they all just play at the same time without defined "lead breaks".

There's an entire subgenre called "melodic clawhammer" that's full of amazing music. Does that indicate that banjo is more than a rhythm instrument?

Edited by - KCJones on 09/22/2025 16:09:38

Tractor1 - Posted - 09/22/2025:  16:55:33

I resort back to "banjo is a rhythm instrument''--I respond to it as it was said at the get go

It sometimes has no need to be in a rhythm category if all necessary beats are served--by other instruments--- it can go for fills or a ''rolling ambience'' --hey I just made that up--but watch out ,it might -catch on--because it is!! an ambience when rolling

Which role the five takes---can be up to the person behind it---The claw hammer lick is in time with the beats which would be quite an invitation for exploiting--however I am still struggling with finger picking
my opinion I ask no agreement

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/22/2025:  18:20:27

KC Jones. I am not interested in anything you have to say because of your personal attacks. I am not the only one who has noticed. I will not be responding to any of your posts. Please stand down. 

Edited by - Mister Lucky on 09/22/2025 18:34:21

KCJones - Posted - 09/23/2025:  05:11:19

Personal attacks? Don't be so sensitive. What ever happened to friendly banter? It's okay to admit that you're wrong, Jack. That's how we grow. It's not a slight to your ego to acknowledge that the banjo is more just than a rhythm instrument.



Perhaps you have had bad luck with your YouTube searches if all you can find is poorly played music that can't maintain the beat. There is a lot of that out there, admittedly.

Edited by - KCJones on 09/23/2025 05:12:33

Lew H - Posted - 09/23/2025:  08:43:22

Mister Lucky I don't know if you mean to agree with the three statements from OT pickers and Seeger, or if you are just putting them up for discussion. Can you clarify? To me, any instrument can be used either to play a rhythmic pattern, a melodic pattern, or both simultaneously. Even brass and woodwinds that play only one note at a time can be used either way. It's what a person does with an instrument that makes it primarily one or the other--or said differently, it's the player, not the banjo. What I personally like bout playing banjo is that it can play rhythm stuff while I sing or while others in a group take breaks, or I can play both rhythm and melody at once on it..

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/23/2025:  13:01:49

I put these quotes up for discussion because I agree with them. And, I am not talking about other instruments, although it is fine for you to do so.

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/23/2025:  13:05:16

KC Jones: You attempt to frame your approach as friendly banter. There is nothing friendly in your approach. And....If you don't like the concept that the banjo is a rhythm instrument and you think that statement is wrong,  take it up with Dwight Diller, Pete Seeger, and Tim Jumper. You seem to think that you know more about the banjo than they do. 

Edited by - Mister Lucky on 09/23/2025 13:12:32

KCJones - Posted - 09/23/2025:  13:47:45

And tell Dan Walsh that the banjo is exclusively a rhythm instrument. Tell Bill Keith while you're at it. I mean come on...

I don't know why you're so stuck on this, and why you feel the need to attack anyone that doesn't agree with you completely. You say you want discussion but it seems you only want to hear from people that completely agree with you. Sorry, but that's not how a discussion works.

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/23/2025:  14:07:58

KC Jones: "Attacking people who don't agree with you." Are you serious? This is a case of projection if I ever heard one. Now, let me be clear, my dislike of you has nothing to do with disagreement, it has everything to do with you attitude. I would never allow a person such as yourself in my personal or professional life, and I have no interest in associating with you on an internet forum. So, find someone else to argue with, and be gone.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/23/2025:  14:09:40

There should be no controversy or sarcastic messages back and forth on this subject.

The banjo is BOTH a rhythm and melody type instrument, at least that's what I've found in all my years of picking. To be a well rounded picker, one needs to do both and do them as well as possible. And I'm not saying everyone should sound like Earl, J.D., Bill Keith or your favorite picker, but be able to do both rhythm and lead.

gentrixuk - Posted - 09/24/2025:  05:25:19

This is an interesting topic. There's something inherently more "percussive" about the sound of the banjo, because of the sharp attack and short decay of the notes. Using a skin-headed drum as the main resonator is bound to emphasise the initial "hit" as the loudest part of the sound it makes. Its particularly noticeable when playing with other instruments who have more natural sustain.



All the 5 string banjo playing styles also have to work around how the thumb adds syncopation and droning around the main melody/chords. Tenor banjo players use a lot of tremolo with the right hand in time to the rhythm and plectrum banjo is a very percussive style. You certainly notice if its being played out of time!



That said, it doesn't have to be "primarily" rhythm, as the first quote says - I think its one of the few instruments that can play melody, harmony and rhythm all at the same time, and the mix varies. When played by itself, or with the classic banjo/fiddle combination, the warmth of the sustained note after the initial "bite" of striking the string can sound wonderful playing melodies, harmonies or chords. The banjo playing I like the best combines all of these elements in a way that really is unique to the banjo, and blurs the lines between rhythm, melody and harmony.

Edited by - gentrixuk on 09/24/2025 05:26:00

Lew H - Posted - 09/24/2025:  05:53:57

I don't really know why we are talking about this, but Mister Lucky missed my main point. Banjos are neither inherently rhythm nor inherently melodic instruments--nor inherently both simultaneously.. No instrument, except maybe some drums, is. If we do not play them, they are silent. When we play instruments, they become whatever we are doing with them at that moment, which can change when we change how we are playing. As someone said, "It's your banjo, kid. You can play it however you want."  To put it more bluntly, the framing of this discussion is false.

Edited by - Lew H on 09/24/2025 05:55:39

Mister Lucky - Posted - 09/27/2025:  21:40:55

Many people on this thread think the banjo is not primarily a rhythm instrument, and that is fine. However, I think i will continue to agree with the opinions of Dwight Diller, Pete Seeger, and Tim Jumper. That said, I wish you all the best. 

Edited by - Mister Lucky on 09/27/2025 21:49:39