sethb - Posted - 08/31/2025:  10:15:22

I'm visiting here from the 4-string section, and I need help identifying two chords.

I'm working on the 1929 tune MY SIN.  The original sheet music has the melody line and the full piano score, but the chord changes above the melody line are only given in GCEA uke fingerings.  I've been able to suss out most of the proper chord names from a soprano uke chord chart, but two chords are evading me.

Here's a copy of those two chords (see attached sheet).  I believe the first one is a diminished chord, possibly a Bdim (based only on the top note in the chord and my ear).  But I have no clue as to the second one.  Any help from the "music theory mavens" here would be much appreciated!  SETH   

"My Sin" chords

 

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  10:55:15

D diminished and E minor seventh?

sethb - Posted - 08/31/2025:  12:34:15

Jerry -- Your first guess of Ddim makes me feel good, since I had guessed Bdim.  From what little I know of music theory, those two chords are basically the same thing (that is, they're inversions of each other -- the same notes, but just in a different order. 

As for the Em7 you suggested, I'm headed to the fretboard to give it a try.

As an aside, I was surprised to find only uke fingering diagrams on a piece of 1929 sheet music.  I thought that by that time, most publishers were using the same regular chord change symbols that we're all familiar with today, and/or guitar fingering diagrams.  And especially for a torch song like MY SIN, it doesn't seem that a uke was really an appropriate instrument for such a tune.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/31/2025 12:34:54

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 08/31/2025:  13:47:40

The first chord is not D dim. It’s Dm7b5 - d ab c f

The second chord: g d e c could be Cadd2.

So, that’s a ii/I cadence. Slightly odd, but not unacceptable by any means.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  13:51:20

Yes, diminished chords can be named after any of the notes they comprise, but I was going by the d note in the bass clef.
I think most sheet music back in the day, either included no chord symbols, or uke chords (usually in bEAC#?), since guitars were largely unheard of and pianists didn’t really need to know what actual chord they were playing, because they just automatically fingered whatever notes were written there. We’ve become a lot more chord focussed of course since say the 1950s, with the popularity of guitars and the like, where we tend to play by learnIng chords first rather than notation.

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 08/31/2025:  13:55:33

But it’s not a diminished chord, Jerry.

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 08/31/2025:  14:01:14

D dim would have a c flat or b. Dm7b5 has a c natural.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  14:16:32

I don’t disagree, Rob, but can’t see where you are getting c notes from…

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 08/31/2025:  14:23:39

First chord, first string, 3rd fret is a C. For some reason it is not noted in the stave below.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  14:41:41

Yes, I see that now (if it’s GCEA tuning), but I was going purely by the notation, and taking my cue from the lowest note played.

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 08/31/2025:  14:54:56

Understood, Jerry. The transcription is wrong. The tuning is GCEa. So the 3rd string is the lowest.

The first chord from bass to treble is:

D F Ab c

The second chord transcribed should be:

D E G c

So, the outer notes stay the same. The F falls to E, and the Ab falls to G. I’d like to know what the next chord is.

Is the transcription from the original publication?

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  15:18:55

I agree about the chord notes shown (and re-entrant tuning meaning the third string is the lowest), but in my experience it’s what’s in the notation that counts, because the chord names and their suggested fingerings have usually been added in afterwards for us non-piano players. Typically, they are only approximations of what the piano plays, or a best fit given the relative limitations of four, five and six string instruments, eg you can finger a much wider range and span of notes on a piano. Plus, the full sheet music normally depicts the notes (and chords by default) that the original performer was playing, rather than a simple depiction of ukelele (or guitar) chords, rather than the other way around (if that makes sense).

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 08/31/2025:  15:30:08

So the bass and treble clefs are not a transcription? Okay, that’s different. I was going by the chord shape, assuming Seth had made a mistake transcribing the string notes. Apologies, Seth!

So if the stave notation is original, and let’s assume correct, some under-paid guy was given ten minutes to put some ukulele chords above the stave. I’ve seen this before - chord boxes that bear no relation to the rest of the score. It happened and happens.

sethb - Posted - 08/31/2025:  15:51:27

Just to clarify, the pics of the notes in the attached JPG are clipped directly from the original 1929 sheet music, ditto on the uke fingering diagrams.  So if there are any mistakes on them, they're now 96 years old. 

I also belately realized that I could have just figured out the notes in each chord by analyzing the uke diagrams once I knew the uke tuning was GCEA.  So those chord notes would have been Ab-D-F-C and G-D-E-C, respectively.  However, even with that info, I'm still unable to tell what chords those notes create.  (I know just enough music theory to be dangerous.) 

And unfortunately Rob, the next chord after the Ab-D-F-C is the unknown G-D-E-C one!  But the next chord after that appears to be an A7 or an A9, if this helps.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 08/31/2025 15:54:28

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  15:58:08

I’m assuming the notation wasn’t generated by Seth, although that is quite possible these days of course with software, which I’ve never tried myself. I have a whole library of songbooks from the last 50 years which fit that description though - someone else adding chords in afterwards, often quite ineptly, although that’s improved more recently with more clued-up people being tasked to do it, plus the availability of tablature for us string players of course.
I assume that it was done in the past to widen the customer base for printed sheet music, which otherwise was only accessible to pianists or those that could read/interpret notation on both the bass and treble clef. More than once I’ve been bequeathed sheet music from the piano stool collections of deceased relatives, and so much of it has no chord notation or some largely unplayable ukelele chord progression, clearly added in by a non-ukelele player.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 08/31/2025:  16:04:55

It’s beginning to sound like a variant on the old circle of fifths - B7, E7, A7 - is the one after that some sort of D chord?

sethb - Posted - 08/31/2025:  16:56:39

After the A7, the next chord is a Dm and then a G7, which takes you to the last chord of the song, which is a C.  SETH

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 09/01/2025:  00:11:30

I’m not actually familiar with the song, but that circle of fifths was very common in that post ragtime era, but often with substitute chords to create a similar progression. I guess Salty Dog is the most familiar one to banjo players.

Profchris - Posted - 09/01/2025:  07:39:41

I'm a uke player and have some experience of these types of old sheet music + uke chords.



As Rob MacKillop says, the link between the uke chords and the notation is often sketchy at best. Also the music often says how to tune the uke - tune Bb or Eb is common, to allow the 'cowboy' uke chords to be played.



Often it's best to ignore the uke chords, or at least use them only as a guide, and work out what the chord must be from the notation and the surrounding parts of the song. With only 4 strings and 16 semitones, uke chord shapes are often ambiguous and designed to suggest the chord, rather than actually give all the notes in it.



Dm7b5 would be unexpected in this kind of song - the chord could also be Fm6 as just one possibility. The chord progression around that might tell us enough to decide. That G D E C chord could also be a C9, or just a mistake (there's no C in the notation, and E D G D might be a G6).



So it might help to post the full pages of the song sheet, showing the chords in question and the surrounding context.



Postscript: I found the sheet music at sheetmusicsinger.com/wp-conten...-1929.pdf



From the context I'm sure the two chords are Dmb5 and C6 - the whole song rolls round the circle of 5ths with the Dmb5 as a passing chord between Dm and G7 - the word 'Your' is held for two beats, with Dm played on the first and the 5th flattened on the second. The C (3rd fret string 4) in the uke notation is there because most uke players couldn't reach the D (5th fret) on that string!

Edited by - Profchris on 09/01/2025 07:45:15

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 09/01/2025:  07:42:15

Well done, Chris. Having the full score certainly helps. 

Edited by - Rob MacKillop on 09/01/2025 07:42:32

sethb - Posted - 09/01/2025:  08:20:23

Thanks, Chris for your help in deciphering these chord changes! 

I was also going to post the original sheet music for everyone's inspection, because at least in the United States, the copyright for this 1929 tune expired 95 years after its publication, and it's now in the public domain.  However, since several posters to this thread are from the UK, where I believe different copyright laws apply (i.e., life of the composer plus 75 years), I thought discretion was the better part of valor, as they say.  In any event, I'm glad it's now up for all to see.

I had one more chord thought here.  Even though I can identify the names of the notes in each uke chord diagram, such as "Ab-D-F-C," I have no way of knowing which note is the root of the chord and therefore might be a possible clue as to the name of the chord.  If I had to guess, given the odd gCEA uke tuning with that high 4th string, I would say that the lowest note (and possibly the root) was the D. 

But I'm also aware that because a uke only has four strings and can only play four different notes at once, the root of a chord is often dropped when an extended chord (with 4+ notes) is played, such as a minor seventh or a ninth.  And in the case of chord inversions, the lowest note isn't always the root.  That's why I also posted the pieces of the piano score, in the hopes that those notes might provide a better picture of the chords in question.

In any event, thanks to all for their thoughts and suggestions, it's much appreciated.  SETH       

Edited by - sethb on 09/01/2025 08:29:54

Alex Z - Posted - 09/01/2025:  09:40:34

Just saw this thread.  Interesting question.  The observation about the root being absent is relevant.

The sound of the chord is very much like a 9th chord.  And the uke tuning intervals are like a guitar's interval, but for the octave.

Tuning:    G  C  E  A

Frets:   1  2  1  3

Notes:  Ab  D  F  C

Chord:  Bb 9th with root absent:    (Bb)  D  F  Ab  C

That explains what I'm hearing.  

Profchris - Posted - 09/01/2025:  10:48:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

Just saw this thread.  Interesting question.  The observation about the root being absent is relevant.

The sound of the chord is very much like a 9th chord.  And the uke tuning intervals are like a guitar's interval, but for the octave.

Tuning:    G  C  E  A

Frets:   1  2  1  3

Notes:  Ab  D  F  C

Chord:  Bb 9th with root absent:    (Bb)  D  F  Ab  C

That explains what I'm hearing.  

---

That's why the full context is important, and why I'm sure it's a Dmb5 (with an added C to make it Dm7b5). The progression is Dm to G7, a flattened 5th Dm works there in the sheet music and as a chromatic walkdown from A to G on the 4th string. If I were playing it on the uke I'd just play the Ab note on the 2nd beat of the bar, not the whole chord. It would probably sound best played higher up the neck, 2555 1555 0212.

In a Tin Pan Alley song, Dm Bb G7 would be way out of place.

Edited by - Profchris on 09/01/2025 10:52:47

sethb - Posted - 09/01/2025:  11:14:13

BTW, I'm playing this song using melody chords on a guitar with just four strings tuned to CGBD (standard plectrum banjo tuning).  I know that makes me a rather odd duck, but it has worked well for me and lets me double on banjo and an electric archtop guitar. 

This also means that where possible, I try to place the melody note on the 4th (D) string, so that sonically it's at the top of the chord (similar to what I believe the right hand of a pianist does when chording).  So this requirement gives me another clue as to the appropriate chord for that note.  But it can take a while to try all the possible chord fingerings with the D string fretted at the correct note, and even then I'm just working by ear and guessing at the correct chord. 

So I really appreciate all the help in sussing out these last few chords, which saves me a lot of time and makes the song sound better, too.  In the original published key of C, this song works well with melody chords because the melody also fits well on the D string scale.  SETH  

Rob MacKillop - Posted - 09/01/2025:  11:57:04

I was confused for a moment, Seth, but I think you made a typo. You said the melody is on the 4th (D) string, the 4th string is C. I’m assuming you meant the 1st string?

Anyway, you are not the only odd duck around here, as I recorded a video with an arch top guitar tuned CGBd on the top four strings. It worked well, I think, it was a one-off some years ago.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 09/01/2025:  12:50:02

Yes, well done guys. The full piano copy really helps, and indeed includes some c notes, which were not apparent in the one beat snapshot of the whole bar/measure being played. Unless the piano part was simply vamping chords (akin to strumming), you wouldn’t see every chordal tone being used in just one beat, and even then the lowest note might be separated out, like in boom-chick guitar rhythms.
Fascinating stuff, but probably quite a turn-off for other readers. However, in the days before any chord symbols (let alone chord box diagrams) were added to sheet music, you had to laboriously decode the notation and decipher the most appropriate chords to fit the melody line yourself (including often transposing it to a better key for your instrument or voice). Tell that to youngsters today and they won’t believe you, since it’s now all done for you with Internet crib sheets and transposers.

sethb - Posted - 09/01/2025:  14:47:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rob MacKillop

I was confused for a moment, Seth, but I think you made a typo. You said the melody is on the 4th (D) string, the 4th string is C. I’m assuming you meant the 1st string?

 

---

Yes, you're right, I meant the first string -- which is the D string. 

To me, looking down at the strings in playing position, the D string is the furthest one away from me, so although I tend to think of it as the "4th string," as you pointed out it's really not.  Thanks for the correction!  SETH

sethb - Posted - 09/02/2025:  07:27:54

After all that musical detective work, I thought you might like to hear the final result.  So here's MY SIN in chord melody (see attached MP3 audio file), but without any rhythm/strumming, so you can hear the chord changes clearly.  SETH

sethb - Posted - 09/02/2025:  09:59:37

And here's a 1929 recording of the same tune, played as a foxtrot by Ben Selvin's band (see attached MP3 audio file).  SETH

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/02/2025:  10:42:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

Even though I can identify the names of the notes in each uke chord diagram, such as "Ab-D-F-C," I have no way of knowing which note is the root of the chord and therefore might be a possible clue as to the name of the chord.  If I had to guess, given the odd gCEA uke tuning with that high 4th string, I would say that the lowest note (and possibly the root) was the D. 

---

The first step in identifying a chord you don't immediately recognize is to follow the first rule of chord construction and put the notes in musical alphabetical order with skipped notes (because chords are primarily stacked thirds). Fortunately, this assortment of notes works with the rule so you're able to arrange them in alpha-skipped order: D-F-Ab-C   (Notice it goes from F to A. That's what I meant by "musical" alphabetical order.)

Previous posters have identified the two chords these could be. One chord if these four notes are all there are. Another chord if a fifth note is missing. Context is everything. And context led to the right choice. But musical alphabetical order is the start. Which also requires determining whether to name any accidentals as sharps or flats.

I'm in over my head, so I'll stop.

sethb - Posted - 09/02/2025:  10:55:32

Thanks for the additional information!  It looks like I was on the right track by trying to identify the "bottom" (root) chord, but I didn't think about how to order the other three notes in the chord.  What you say about getting the notes in the proper "musical order" makes sense.   SETH

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/02/2025:  11:27:37

Happy to have helped.

Additional: When you get the notes in alphabetical skipped note order, if the lowest note of that order isn't the lowest note being played, then you know you're dealing with an inversion.

And finally, but I think this was covered earlier, if the sheet music shows more different notes than the uke or banjo chord diagram, then the uke or banjo just isn't playing all the notes of the chord.

sethb - Posted - 09/02/2025:  16:06:04

Yes, I had thought about the inversion issue, but  then figured that as long as I could put the notes in musical alphabetical order as you suggested, it wouldn't matter and I could still be on my way to naming the chord. 

It's funny, but I really should have thought about the "stacked notes" situation before in trying to deal with this situation, since as you noted, that's how chords are made.  And although I did have two years of piano lessons over 50 years ago, I've been playing the banjo and guitar for so long that I think in terms of fingerings and chord progressions rather than notes on staff lines.  Thanks for jogging my memory!  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 09/02/2025 16:07:48

sethb - Posted - 09/04/2025:  08:11:16

I have one more question about locating the root of a chord, if that’s also the way to find the name of a chord. 

In trying to “reverse engineer” the name of a chord from its four uke diagram notes, it occurs to me that simply locating the lowest note (either sonically or musically-alphabetically) of a chord on a banjo CGBD fretboard may not always provide the root.  Look at a chord we already know the name of, such as a basic open G chord created by fretting the 4th string at the second fret.  That creates the notes DGBD across the four strings.  But the lowest sonic note is a D, which isn’t the root of the chord.  Ignoring the duplicated D note and putting the other three notes in proper musical-alphabetical order (DGB) doesn’t help to identify the root, either.  I think that’s because this fingering may be an inversion.  And that low D is simply a duplication of the D note on the first string (because a major chord only has three notes in it anyway).  Since this is a G chord, I’m guessing that the real root is the G on the third string, and along with the two higher notes, B and D, forms the rest of the triad.  

The next higher G chord fingering (a closed chord starting on the second fret and running to the fifth fret) produces DBDG across the strings. Once again the low D is not the root of the chord; it’s the G on the first string, which is the highest note in this fingered chord.  So even ignoring the duplicated D note and putting the other three notes in proper musical-alphabetical order (DGB) also doesn’t help to identify the root.    

The next G chord that begins at the seventh fret produces GDGB.  So the lowest sonic note is actually the root, but ignoring the duplicated higher G, it takes some doing to put the other three notes in the proper musical-alphabetical order of GBD; you might easily go for DGB instead if you didn’t already know G was the root.

And the last G fingering right below the 12^th fret produces BGBD.  Only by ignoring the duplicated B (and making sure it’s the low B that’s eliminated) do we get the accurate GBD triad with the low G as the root.

So either I’m missing something here, or maybe I’m just overthinking this.  If anyone can help lead me out of this “musical theory” swamp, I’d much appreciate it!  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 09/04/2025 08:13:36