cuberous - Posted - 07/28/2025:  17:52:39

I'm not too well versed in music theory so when I came across this mind-bending musical phrase I thought for sure it wouldn't be possible on banjo: a 'modal mixture common tone enharmonic double chromatic mediant modulation'. I put the phrase into Google
search and sure enough, not only did Google spit out an explanation of each of the terms but it also informed me that it could be played on a banjo, depending on the tuning and the players ability. Further, this musical contortion is apparently 'instrument-agnostic'. So, can anyone tell me what all this mean in plain banjo language, and can anyone provide an example of this? Thanks, Cuberous (aka: modally mixed-up).

Banjercat - Posted - 07/28/2025:  18:16:13

Check out Jack Beuthin on Youtube,
He explores just this and offers very concise demonstrations with available TAB on hangout for Mississippi Sawyer in 4 different modes.

cuberous - Posted - 07/28/2025:  18:43:10

Thanks, banjercat, will do.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/28/2025:  19:18:29

quote:

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Originally posted by cuberous

...can anyone tell me what all this mean in plain banjo language, and can anyone provide an example of this? 

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The plainest explanation -- and the guy in this video does a pretty good job -- is going to be as instrument agnostic as the concept itself, because it relates to composition not performance on any instrument. But as the presenter eventually points out, the sound of this particular key change (modulation) can pack an emotional wallop.

The video discusses its use in the arrangement of "All By Myself" as performed live by Celine Dion.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 07/28/2025:  20:54:27

I can’t even tell you what the modal mixture gobbly gook means, but my video that demonstrates the four most common modes in traditional/old time music is pinned to the top of one of the forums. Hope this helps.

 

banjohangout.org/topic/389423

banjopaolo - Posted - 07/29/2025:  04:35:19

I’m quite skilled in music theory but the phrase you have posted seems obscure to me, looks like a joke ;-)

Anyway I think that banjo is a complete instrument: with the right tecnique and the complete knowledge of the fingerboard you can play what you want…

I’m more a four string jazz player but I like to play the same songs (jazz standards for exemple or my original compositions) on the five string

VIDEO: Goodbye Pork Pie Hat on 5str Banjo
(click to view)

VIDEO: Summer Song
(click to view)

banjered - Posted - 07/29/2025:  09:09:08

If it ain't major and it ain't minor. I call it "muddle"and am done with it. banjered

trapdoor2 - Posted - 07/29/2025:  09:13:39

Technology tends to search for jargon. As the exploration of minutae moves into theory of why the given tech works, the words we use can often become more confusing than the tech itself.



In some cases, the only way some things can be adequately explained is by going German on it. That is, assembling smaller descriptive terms into a sum. It just happens that we English speakers prefer spaces...where Germans do not. 

I enjoyed the video. Very well done.

Edited by - trapdoor2 on 07/29/2025 09:15:28

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 07/29/2025:  10:46:07

I think it has something to do with the double-augmented fourth in the key of B.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/29/2025:  11:16:51

quote:

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

I’m quite skilled in music theory but the phrase you have posted seems obscure to me, looks like a joke ;-)

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It's not a joke.

Look at the video I posted of the guy is very seriously describing that very key change in Celine Dion's live performance of "All By Myself."

As he explains:

modal mixture: The first part of the song (as performed by Celine) is in G major with harmonies from G minor.

common tone: The key change centers on E flat -- the flat 6 of G minor, which several times earlier in the song has resolved a half step down to D, the five of G major. On the modulation, it doesn't resolve. It transforms into the major third of the new key C-flat major.

enharmonic: C-flat major is the same as B major. E-flat as a note is the major third of C-flat major. The same note is also D-sharp, which is the third of B. Two names for the note or key is "enharmonic." But at around 9:30 the presenter in the video describes the musical reason (having to do largely with our previous experience and associations with the notes D# and E-flat) for calling the destination key C-flat and not B.

double chromatic mediant modulation: Mediant = third degree of the diatonic scale. The chord built on the third degree of G major (the key of the song being discussed here) is B minor. So G to B minor would be a mediant modulation. Change the quality of the target chord to B major (changing one note by a half step) and it becomes a chromatic mediant modulation. But in a previous section we discussed that the note at the center of the key change is E-flat, which comes from G minor, not G major. This means we've also changed the character of the starting chord by changing one note by one-half step. So we have a double chromatic mediant modulation. And we previously discussed it's "enharmonic" because we're calling the target chord/key C-flat major instead of B major.

At around 15:30, he describes why this key change is musically and emotionally effective.

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/29/2025:  11:34:38

quote:

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

Anyway I think that banjo is a complete instrument: with the right technique and the complete knowledge of the fingerboard you can play what you want…



I’m more a four string jazz player but I like to play the same songs (jazz standards for exemple or my original compositions) on the five string

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Yes, it is. And yes you can!

Beautiful compositions.

banjopaolo - Posted - 07/29/2025:  12:21:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

I’m quite skilled in music theory but the phrase you have posted seems obscure to me, looks like a joke ;-)

---

It's not a joke.

Look at the video I posted of the guy is very seriously describing that very key change in Celine Dion's live performance of "All By Myself."

As he explains:

modal mixture: The first part of the song (as performed by Celine) is in G major with harmonies from G minor.

common tone: The key change centers on E flat -- the flat 6 of G minor, which several times earlier in the song has resolved a half step down to D, the five of G major. On the modulation, it doesn't resolve. It transforms into the major third of the new key C-flat major.

enharmonic: C-flat major is the same as B major. E-flat as a note is the major third of C-flat major. The same note is also D-sharp, which is the third of B. Two names for the note or key is "enharmonic." But at around 9:30 the presenter in the video describes the musical reason (having to do largely with our previous experience and associations with the notes D# and E-flat) for calling the destination key C-flat and not B.

double chromatic mediant modulation: Mediant = third degree of the diatonic scale. The chord built on the third degree of G major (the key of the song being discussed here) is B minor. So G to B minor would be a mediant modulation. Change the quality of the target chord to B major (changing one note by a half step) and it becomes a chromatic mediant modulation. But in a previous section we discussed that the note at the center of the key change is E-flat, which comes from G minor, not G major. This means we've also changed the character of the starting chord by changing one note by one-half step. So we have a double chromatic mediant modulation. And we previously discussed it's "enharmonic" because we're calling the target chord/key C-flat major instead of B major.

At around 15:30, he describes why this key change is musically and emotionally effective.

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Ken, I didn't wach the video you posted because my english comprhension is not so easy.., but I will try to understand ;-)

Old Hickory - Posted - 07/29/2025:  12:48:44

quote:

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Originally posted by banjopaolo

 

Ken, I didn't wach the video you posted because my english comprhension is not so easy.., but I will try to understand ;-)

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I'm sorry. Didn't know.

My discussion was as much (or more) for Greg than you.  I realize you know theory quite well.

Your compositions show that.

I hope that if you watch the video, you can pick up some of what the presenter is saying.  He makes complex theory easy to understand.