rkdjones - Posted - 06/24/2025:  10:51:15

I'm trying to work through Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine in the key of D. I am really used to folk music with 8 bars in A part, 8 bars in B part, in 4/4 time. The score I found is in 4/4 time with 16 bars in A, 16 bars in B. see musescore.com/user/27109633/scores/4981134

Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music? If you change all the quarter notes to eighth notes would it be 2/4 time with the same number of measures? Is it common for folk music to be scored this way?

How could it be written with 8 measures per part? What would the time signature be?

Corwyn - Posted - 06/24/2025:  10:56:55

I have never heard of a connection between time signature and bars in a part. Time signature controls where the emphasis on the first notes occurs. Rewriting in a different signature would change how the music sounds.

You could think of each part as being two parts, if that makes things easier for you.

Thank you kindly.

250gibson - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:01:54

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm trying to work through Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine in the key of D. I am really used to folk music with 8 bars in A part, 8 bars in B part, in 4/4 time. The score I found is in 4/4 time with 16 bars in A, 16 bars in B. see musescore.com/user/27109633/scores/4981134



Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music? If you change all the quarter notes to eighth notes would it be 2/4 time with the same number of measures? Is it common for folk music to be scored this way?



How could it be written with 8 measures per part? What would the time signature be?

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Changing the time signature to 2/2 and leaving the notation as is will end up with half as many measures. 

250gibson - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:45:54

quote:

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Originally posted by 250gibson

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm trying to work through Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine in the key of D. I am really used to folk music with 8 bars in A part, 8 bars in B part, in 4/4 time. The score I found is in 4/4 time with 16 bars in A, 16 bars in B. see musescore.com/user/27109633/scores/4981134



Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music? If you change all the quarter notes to eighth notes would it be 2/4 time with the same number of measures? Is it common for folk music to be scored this way?



How could it be written with 8 measures per part? What would the time signature be?

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Changing the time signature to 2/2 and leaving the notation as is will end up with half as many measures. 

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Sorry I was wrong. Didn't think all the way through. You would have to half everything also. 

Edited by - 250gibson on 06/24/2025 11:49:06

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 06/24/2025:  11:57:48

Why do you want it to be 8 measures instead of 16?

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 06/24/2025:  12:03:50

To answer your question though, yes.
If you were to change all the 1/4 notes to 1/8 notes and stay in 4/4, you'll be expressing the same song in half as many measures.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 06/24/2025:  12:09:55

In the version with the 16-bar A & B parts, were there any repeat signs?

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/24/2025:  12:20:04

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music? If you change all the quarter notes to eighth notes would it be 2/4 time with the same number of measures? Is it common for folk music to be scored this way?

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I don't know if you need to change the time signature. But you do have to change the division the beat and what you consider a beat.

I just now played the tune at your link, at the tempo it wanted to play, but I counted "1 E & a 2 E & a 3 E & a 4 E & a" (as if it were written in sixteenths). One measure counting that way covered two measures as written. So that reduces the sore to 8-measure A and B parts.

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 06/24/2025:  12:35:13

If the original arrangement were written by hand, the person who did it may have chosen that to literally have more space on their paper per measure, as well as drawing half as many flags for every note.
Hand written sheet music can get really messy...

banjoak - Posted - 06/24/2025:  13:34:01

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm trying to work through Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine in the key of D. I am really used to folk music with 8 bars in A part, 8 bars in B part, in 4/4 time. The score I found is in 4/4 time with 16 bars in A, 16 bars in B. see musescore.com/user/27109633/scores/4981134



Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music? If you change all the quarter notes to eighth notes would it be 2/4 time with the same number of measures? Is it common for folk music to be scored this way?



How could it be written with 8 measures per part? What would the time signature be?

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There is often confusion in notation that what is defined as the beat... doesn't really represent what the perceived "beat" and sense of meter are; just so math seems to work okay. If writing the notation, it really helps to start with listening, and feel; the main pulse and meter (grouping and division of main pulse)

Change the note values to half, that is quarter notes become eighth notes. That will make two meters become one metric feel. While could keep the 4/4; IMO the meter feel of 2 and would be better represented by 2 beats per measure, be 2/2.

Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music?

Notation is symbolic numeric representation, often see same piece of music written in 4/4, 2/4, 2/2, attempting to represent the same thing. It often can be perceived different ways (involving different hierarchical layers); but easy enough to read any of those to come up with the same result.

Edited by - banjoak on 06/24/2025 13:40:03

banjoak - Posted - 06/24/2025:  13:53:56

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Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

Why do you want it to be 8 measures instead of 16?

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It's what many are used to. 

But it might not be so much about how many measures, but the length of one measure... better represent a sense of underlying meter, grouping and sense of where "ONE" is... and can help with overall cognition of structure, musical syntax and phrasing. (kind of like using commas, semicolon or periods, helps)

Edited by - banjoak on 06/24/2025 13:56:21

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/24/2025:  14:49:14

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

I'm trying to work through Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine in the key of D. I am really used to folk music with 8 bars in A part, 8 bars in B part, in 4/4 time. The score I found is in 4/4 time with 16 bars in A, 16 bars in B. see musescore.com/user/27109633/scores/4981134



Could the score be written with a different time signature and be the same piece of music? If you change all the quarter notes to eighth notes would it be 2/4 time with the same number of measures? Is it common for folk music to be scored this way?



How could it be written with 8 measures per part? What would the time signature be?

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The musescore score is not right (at least the way I've been playing it for the past umpteen yrs.) 4/4 is correct. The A part should be 8 bars with a repeat. The B part should be 8 bars with no repeat and then play the A part once thru...back to the top. The B part is often not segregated from its repeat of the A part so it is 16 measures...but the last 8 are just the A part.

Playing cycle is: AA-B-A, AA-B-A, AA-B-A...the reality is that you're playing the A part three times in a row after the first cycle.

Boblamoy - Posted - 06/24/2025:  15:39:00

A 32 bar version can also be found at bushbanjo.net. 4/4 time Dmajor.

rkdjones - Posted - 06/24/2025:  15:45:59

Now you've given me something new to chew on. I just assumed it as AA BB AA BB. I'm prepping to play with a fiddler friend who learned it from the Canote brothers (stringband.mossyroof.com/Bonap...ne_AB.mp3)

Neither one of us is very good, and I really need to see it written out to get it set in my head since my ear is just not very developed. I will listen carefully and see if I can discern the parts. It can be hard since so many phrases can get repeated in A and B.

Boblamoy - Posted - 06/24/2025:  16:19:05

Abcnotation.com indicates there are 74 variations of Bonapart crossing the Rhine. Variety is the spice of life.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/24/2025:  17:08:27

quote:

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Originally posted by rkdjones

Now you've given me something new to chew on. I just assumed it as AA BB AA BB. I'm prepping to play with a fiddler friend who learned it from the Canote brothers (stringband.mossyroof.com/Bonap...ne_AB.mp3)



Neither one of us is very good, and I really need to see it written out to get it set in my head since my ear is just not very developed. I will listen carefully and see if I can discern the parts. It can be hard since so many phrases can get repeated in A and B.

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You should learn the version your fiddler is playing, regardless of the "correct" way to do it. The Canote brothers are playing it AA-BB.

Here's Josh playing it in his Brainjo series. This is the way I learned it. I've never heard it AA-BB, always AA-B-A.

youtu.be/r3DP7Z2Jij8?si=WaTqyD5HcdcqfNIm The tune starts at 2:20.

Here's the Fuzzy Mountain String Band: youtu.be/MBAB9p-XFAE?si=OaZmyj2kJEGdRA5V This is AA-BA-BA !

Make it yours.

Edited by - trapdoor2 on 06/24/2025 17:18:37

janolov - Posted - 06/25/2025:  01:45:12

Here is a version with 8 bars: tunearch.org/wiki/Napoleon_Cro...the_Rhine

The text also says the cycle is A A B, even if the notation says the B part shall be repeated.