thelonious9 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  08:26:37

Hello, I have perused the forum many times but am reaching out for some advice.
I mostly play guitar so I think of tunings a little differently in that I don't think much about the 5th string purpose as much .
To the point I have some sheet music that I'm doing research on for a project . I want to play the music but don't know the standards for efficiently playing in a tuning for banjo.
I'll attach the music and ask if anyone has any best options for tuning. I have tried some different ones and am not settled.
Thanks for any assistance!

Parkers Old Time Jig

 

s_ou_b - Posted - 05/06/2025:  08:55:47

I would bet almost any amount of money that the piece, as it was written for banjo, had gCGBD as the tuning in mind.

But I have been wrong before.

thelonious9 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  09:41:45

Thanks, the part that throws me off is the A below middle C as the lowest note. My instincts would always tell me the lowest banjo string (4th) string would be that Open A.
He has other pieces with that
A note being the lowest, it confuses me...

jack_beuthin - Posted - 05/06/2025:  09:45:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by s_ou_b

I would bet almost any amount of money that the piece, as it was written for banjo, had gCGBD as the tuning in mind.



But I have been wrong before.

---

I agree with Rhea about the relative standard C tuning--gCGBD.  But to play it in the key of A, as in the notation, I would pitch this tuning down three half steps so that the banjo is then eAEG#B.  This will allow you to catch the lowest and highest notes in the melody without having to run way up the neck.

If you don't want to tune down, then just transpose the piece into the key of C, and then just use the standard C or Double C tuning.

Edited by - jack_beuthin on 05/06/2025 09:45:49

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  10:13:08

"Tuning" can be a confusing term in reference to banjo music. Basically there is only one "tuning" (set string intervals).

The pitch of the banjo did change as musical tastes and manufacturing technology progressed, raising the pitch of the banjo. But "tuning" remained the same.

Here is a link to the scan I made of the original music that you posted:

archive.org/details/norfolk-an...h.-parker

I have also scanned and made available all the info you could ever need to read and play banjo music. All posted to the Internet Archive:

archive.org/details/@joel_hooks

What you are looking for is "A notation". This was the "pitch" that banjo music in North America was published in from the late 1850s until 1908/1909 (and around a decade further concurrent with "C notation).

I explain what this is all about in my article on the subject here:

archive.org/details/abf-5-stringer-219

For reading and playing banjo music in A notation, you will find everything you need to know in these instruction books linked below.

archive.org/details/@joel_hook...-notation

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  10:16:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by jack_beuthin

quote:

---

Originally posted by s_ou_b

I would bet almost any amount of money that the piece, as it was written for banjo, had gCGBD as the tuning in mind.



But I have been wrong before.

---

I agree with Rhea about the relative standard C tuning--gCGBD.  But to play it in the key of A, as in the notation, I would pitch this tuning down three half steps so that the banjo is then eAEG#B.  This will allow you to catch the lowest and highest notes in the melody without having to run way up the neck.

If you don't want to tune down, then just transpose the piece into the key of C, and then just use the standard C or Double C tuning.

---

By the time this music was published, the pitch of the banjo had already been generally raised to C and was being treated as a transposing instrument.  That means that this piece, while noted in the keys of A and E, would have sounded in the keys of C and G (one octave below written).

See my post above for a full explanation of this. 

Dan Gellert - Posted - 05/06/2025:  10:18:20

You can safely assume that any banjo music written in standard notation (without tablature) was intended to be played out of the standard tuning (gCGBD), BUT that piece is written in "A notation", as was usual at the time. The tuning is eAEG#B (=standard C tuning, but 3 frets lower). I think that by the late 1880's, the banjo was usually tuned up to C, so was then treated as a transposing instrument in E flat (like an alto sax); what your notation calls a C natural sounds the piano's E flat. About that time, folks started writing banjo music in C notation, IOW in the sounded pitch (actually an octave above...), starting a long argument between the two notation standards.

thelonious9 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  11:22:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

"Tuning" can be a confusing term in reference to banjo music. Basically there is only one "tuning" (set string intervals).



The pitch of the banjo did change as musical tastes and manufacturing technology progressed, raising the pitch of the banjo. But "tuning" remained the same.



Here is a link to the scan I made of the original music that you posted:



archive.org/details/norfolk-an...h.-parker



I have also scanned and made available all the info you could ever need to read and play banjo music. All posted to the Internet Archive:



archive.org/details/@joel_hooks



What you are looking for is "A notation". This was the "pitch" that banjo music in North America was published in from the late 1850s until 1908/1909 (and around a decade further concurrent with "C notation).



I explain what this is all about in my article on the subject here:



archive.org/details/abf-5-stringer-219



For reading and playing banjo music in A notation, you will find everything you need to know in these instruction books linked below.



archive.org/details/@joel_hook...-notation

---

Wow Thank you Rhea, Jack and Joel and Dan, a consensus to be sure. I uploaded this into Musescore to convert to tab just to see visually if it made sense before playing. I did try the eAEG#B and it looked fine although I wasn't sure which notes I should let the 5th string take vs the B string but I'll figure that out. 

I did download that from you then Joel! I was looking for the other Parker tunes as I am doing a 30-40 minute video doc on him. He was my grandmother's stepfather and I have alot of documents/pictures and about 7 instruments of his. 

I was going to try to play portions of these tunes. Norfolk, Parkers Jig and another Lizzy P Clog which I literally just realized as I wrote this, it's named after his wife. Forehead slap moment. if anyone could do a better job recording these I would happily give credit! 

I also toyed with a few short informational videos with Jim Bollman or Gregg Miner for some history background.

Thanks for the great resources!

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  12:33:03

Sounds like an excellent project and I am always glad to learn that someone out there is getting something out this stuff. Makes my efforts worth it.

slc - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:07:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by thelonious9

I'll attach the music and ask if anyone has any best options for tuning. I have tried some different ones and am not settled.

Thanks for any assistance!

---

I went down a bit of a rabbit hole and finally got something to play the melody (I don't read music). It's a challenging tune! If I attempted this I'd probably use a jig style to start, but a lot of it seems like the notes go in the wrong "direction" for a clawhammer hand (jig or otherwise). Wouldn't know for sure without trying of course.



For tuning, seems like open G (gDGBD) capoed up to A might work. But another option might be to shift the sheet notes down to C or D and play in one of those tunings. I can't tell if the range would work better like that but worth experimenting? Also, that the tune doesn't seem to use the 5th string as synchopation - at least not in the way I'm used to.

Note it shifts to F# for the last part. If I was in A tuning (G caped to A) that chord would look like this (high string at top):

E   2

C# 0

A   1

E   2

a  ---



It looks very much like a regular D chord (or C out of G tuning), except the index finger moves from the 2nd (C#) string (first fret) to the 3rd (A) string.



You probably don't need to hold that chord - just emphasize the F# notes on the 1st or 4th strings. It actually sounds a little minor to me, which allows omitting that A# note. I've played in some bands that shift from G to Em - that works very well without any retuning.

If you were playing out of C or D, that shift would be a barre across the 4th fret - more awkward for sure.



 

thelonious9 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:24:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Sounds like an excellent project and I am always glad to learn that someone out there is getting something out this stuff. Makes my efforts worth it.

---

If you didn't know, Parker spent his last 14 years in Keene, just a hop and skip from you. 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:28:29

slc this is pretty basic fare for this era and nothing specifically poses any playing challenges. No need for capo clamps or scordatura.

The "tuning" is gCGBD written as eAEG#B (three half steps lower).

Reading music is easy and any of the A notation instruction books I posted will teach you how to read for banjo.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:29:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by thelonious9

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Sounds like an excellent project and I am always glad to learn that someone out there is getting something out this stuff. Makes my efforts worth it.

---

If you didn't know, Parker spent his last 14 years in Keene, just a hop and skip from you. 

---

Cool!  I don't really know anything about him.  There were a fair number of active fingerstyle banjoists in New Hampshire and many towns had "banjo clubs". 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:32:05

slc , oh, sorry, this would likely be played fingerstyle or "guitar style" as it was called when published (opposed to stroke/banjo style or thimble style).

That would be, bare fingers in gut strings.

Corwyn - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:44:36

What I think I would do is enter the music in Lilypond (my favorite music transcription program), and then I can just set up different tunings to see how easy they look. You can see both standard notation and tablature. Once music is in a form that computers understand, you can do all sorts of manipulations.

Thank you kindly.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  13:50:47

If I get a chance this week I'll sit down and sight read it recording with my phone. No fancy computer program needed.

thelonious9 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  14:32:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

If I get a chance this week I'll sit down and sight read it recording with my phone. No fancy computer program needed.

---

Yes I got the sense it could very easily be translated to guitar finger style!

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  14:35:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by thelonious9

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

If I get a chance this week I'll sit down and sight read it recording with my phone. No fancy computer program needed.

---

Yes I got the sense it could very easily be translated to guitar finger style!

---

"Guitar style" is the period term for playing the banjo with fingers... like a guitar (this predates plectrums).

Today, for lack of a better term, we call this "classic banjo".

trapdoor2 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  17:09:55

I've created Tab for "Parkers" Old Time Jig. See attached for both the Tab and an mp3 file.

For my part, this sounds like a Stroke Style piece...which would be getting into "old time" for someone in 1887. I think I would try it Stroke and see whether I like it. Stroke is what I term "proto-clawhammer", it ends up being much like Drop Thumb and allows some complex rhythms that just don't appear in "normal" clawhammer.

If I didn't like it in Stroke Style, I'd do it in Classic fingerstyle, aka 3-finger. People in 1887 were evolving the banjo out of the Stroke and into the Guitar style just as they were evolving from fretless to fretted instruments.

Generically, (reading the A-Notation): in this period, almost all of the E notes (the top space) would be made on the 5th string. You can see this in my Tab, the exception being the climbing figure in measures 4 and 12 (which probably should end on the 1st string, 5th fret). I say "probably" because I haven't played thru it yet. Everybody has a different technique...and when your attacking a tune, you change your fingering (both hands) to suit yourself.

Of course, the Tab I've presented will work just as well if you tuned eAEG#B or dGDF#A (Briggs tuning). They're all the same schema, just pitched differently. I tend to like dGDF#A...just my old ears.

Parkers Old Time Jig

Parkers Old Time Jig Tab

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/06/2025:  18:31:02

Here is a quick read through on a real banjo by a human that does not sound like a robot (completed with human errors).

"Parker's" Old Time Jig

 

trapdoor2 - Posted - 05/06/2025:  20:39:19

I'll try to be less of a robot in the future, Joel.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/07/2025:  05:37:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

I'll try to be less of a robot in the future, Joel.

---

I am fully away that I am unique in my problems with midi.  It has been exasperated with the rapid velocity of, "AI" images and video, which, to me, is just more robot puke.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 05/07/2025:  07:29:31

I am fully away that I am unique in my problems with midi.  It has been exasperated with the rapid velocity of, "AI" images and video, which, to me, is just more robot puke.

---

Well, I worked hard on that robot puke. I recommend  using your "Power Rangers, IGNORE!" superpower.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/07/2025:  07:46:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

I am fully away that I am unique in my problems with midi.  It has been exasperated with the rapid velocity of, "AI" images and video, which, to me, is just more robot puke.

---

Well, I worked hard on that robot puke. I recommend  using your "Power Rangers, IGNORE!" superpower.

---

To be clear, it is the AI stuff that I call 'robot puke', not the midi you generated.

I'm quite fond of music setting software and very aware of the work involved in using it.  When I use it (and clearly this is just a me problem) I mute the sound so I don't have to hear the beeps the bloops. 

thelonious9 - Posted - 05/07/2025:  10:11:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by trapdoor2

I've created Tab for "Parkers" Old Time Jig. See attached for both the Tab and an mp3 file.

For my part, this sounds like a Stroke Style piece...which would be getting into "old time" for someone in 1887. I think I would try it Stroke and see whether I like it. Stroke is what I term "proto-clawhammer", it ends up being much like Drop Thumb and allows some complex rhythms that just don't appear in "normal" clawhammer.

If I didn't like it in Stroke Style, I'd do it in Classic fingerstyle, aka 3-finger. People in 1887 were evolving the banjo out of the Stroke and into the Guitar style just as they were evolving from fretless to fretted instruments.

Generically, (reading the A-Notation): in this period, almost all of the E notes (the top space) would be made on the 5th string. You can see this in my Tab, the exception being the climbing figure in measures 4 and 12 (which probably should end on the 1st string, 5th fret). I say "probably" because I haven't played thru it yet. Everybody has a different technique...and when your attacking a tune, you change your fingering (both hands) to suit yourself.

Of course, the Tab I've presented will work just as well if you tuned eAEG#B or dGDF#A (Briggs tuning). They're all the same schema, just pitched differently. I tend to like dGDF#A...just my old ears.

---

Wow, I can't thank you more, that tab looks great. I haven't heard it yet (at work). I borrowed an old Ramsey open back to play these. By the way, everyone on this forum has been shockingly helpful as I'm used to guitar forums where the tone is a bit Snarkier, ha ha. I will listen to everyone's recordings in a few! And may link the video when I finish in the coming weeks, I think you'll enjoy and probably have handfuls of improvements. As you mentioned the banjos evolution , is their a good resource to get a decent overview of the banjo in this period to turn of the century? 

thelonious9 - Posted - 05/07/2025:  10:16:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Here is a quick read through on a real banjo by a human that does not sound like a robot (completed with human errors).

---

Thanks Joel, I will listen on my lunch break! I appreciate your time and effort. I think we all agree, music software can be a great help but is not meant to be a substitute for human performance. I have hundreds of pages of written transcripts and would love to have them in digital software to be able to make alterations and key changes if needed if not just to remove the deterioration of the paper. Much appreciated.!!

trapdoor2 - Posted - 05/07/2025:  16:25:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by thelonious9

 

Wow, I can't thank you more, that tab looks great. I haven't heard it yet (at work). I borrowed an old Ramsey open back to play these. By the way, everyone on this forum has been shockingly helpful as I'm used to guitar forums where the tone is a bit Snarkier, ha ha. I will listen to everyone's recordings in a few! And may link the video when I finish in the coming weeks, I think you'll enjoy and probably have handfuls of improvements. As you mentioned the banjos evolution , is their a good resource to get a decent overview of the banjo in this period to turn of the century? 

---

I can't think of an "overview" of 1880-1900 banjo playing. You should download a copy of Frank Converse's "Analytical Method" as it was published in 1886. It is one of the seminal banjo books of the period and contains techniques for both Stroke and Guitar style as it was taught in the day (and plenty of tunes to play). Converse Analytical at the Internet Archive

Also, there are copies of things like S. S. Stewart's "Journal" (a monthly newsletter published in the period).

It is well to consider that "Old Time Jig" references a style that was 30 yrs old by this time...and rapidly fading. I don't know any of Parker's history, so I'm not sure if he's nostalgic or simply trying to make a buck (or both).

trapdoor2 - Posted - 05/07/2025:  17:44:34

Ok...now I've played thru it in both Stroke Style and Classic 3-finger...and I've made a change.

The climbing figure in measures 4 and 12 should keep the LH form and just slide it up the neck to get those notes. Much easier. I've amended the Tab.

This plays easily in Stroke Style and in 3-finger. It took me just a little while longer to get my Stroke chops remembered (I haven't played that specific style in years but it is so close to Drop Thumb that it makes little difference). The grace note figure is struck with the finger across the 2nd and 1st strings and plucked with the index and middle in 3-finger. Please note I've added a slew of slurs in my version. These are understood to either be pull-offs (snaps) or Hammer-ons (slurs), depending on if the pitch is falling or rising. Generically, snapping to an open string is a great way to allow either hand a bit of room to make the following notes.

"Parkers" Old Time Jig