BG Banjo - Posted - 04/03/2025:  11:34:23

I've been playing bluegrass banjo for a little while, and I'm just getting caught up in Old Time music and Clawhammer. I've been watching videos and working hard at it for a couple of months now. So every video lesson or series of video lessons of clawhammer I watch, they are teaching the bum ditty, hit a string, strum, thumb. But I saw this video of Meredith Moon playing Muddy Waters. Is what she doing clawhammer? Because I like what she is doing here. Because she seems to be hitting a lot of notes and not doing very much thumbing and strumming. 



youtube.com/watch?v=Je5rnKH5v6A&t=9s

Edited by - BG Banjo on 04/03/2025 11:48:17

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 04/03/2025:  11:48:52

Yes that's Clawhammer. She's doing a lot of double-thumbing. Either:



hit a string, thumb, strum, thumb



or



hit a string, thumb, hit a string, thumb

Both have a Bump-a Dit-ty rhythm, rather than bum dit-ty



There's probably some drop-thumb in there too (where you play a non-drone string with your thumb), but the main effect I'm hearing in the beginning is double-thumbing the drone string.

Edited by - A Drum On A Stick on 04/03/2025 11:49:42

lapsteel - Posted - 04/03/2025:  12:15:01

Stick to the old timey tunes first. There is a world to explore there. Do not start or worry about how Meredith moon plays.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/03/2025:  12:57:56

Here's a close look at Walt Koken's playing. He's as good as it gets

youtube.com/watch?v=-PRE9CkX21U

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/03/2025:  14:09:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Here's a close look at Walt Koken's playing. He's as good as it gets

youtube.com/watch?v=-PRE9CkX21U

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That was very interesting, the slow motion especially. It is interesting that he extends his fingers when he brushes the strings, something I've been trying not to do because the tutorial I'm studying emphasized keeping the fingers curled and strumming from the wrist. I think his method is more natural. I might loosen up a little and try it.

I thank you for the video and I'll watch it again when I go down to play. I still like Meredith Moon's style though. It just feels smoother. Less cluttered might be a better description.

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/03/2025:  14:09:56

quote:

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Originally posted by lapsteel

Stick to the old timey tunes first. There is a world to explore there. Do not start or worry about how Meredith moon plays.

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You are probably right, but I have to do everything the hard way. 

banjoboyd - Posted - 04/03/2025:  14:22:42

Sounds and looks like pretty standard clawhammer to me.

Clawhammer =/= bum-ditty.

The bum-ditty pattern for clawhammer is analogous to the alternating thumb roll for Scruggs-style. It's kind of the default pattern if you don't know what else to do or just want to keep things simple, and for that reason, it's the first thing people learn. But the essence of clawhammer is really the continuous alternation between downstroke (including strumming) on the beat and thumb on the offbeat. Within that, there are lots of patterns.

dbrooks - Posted - 04/03/2025:  14:26:10

Concerning Walt Koken's fingers extending, that's more gravity than conscious muscle action -- at least for most people (and Walt is far more skilled than most people).  Your right hand works best in a relaxed curl.  As your hand rises for the next downstroke, inertia keeps the fingers moving downward ever so slightly. Any effort to tighten up your hand will make it harder to play smoothly and faster.

David

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/03/2025:  14:42:10

quote:

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Originally posted by dbrooks

Concerning Walt Koken's fingers extending, that's more gravity than conscious muscle action -- at least for most people (and Walt is far more skilled than most people).  Your right hand works best in a relaxed curl.  As your hand rises for the next downstroke, inertia keeps the fingers moving downward ever so slightly. Any effort to tighten up your hand will make it harder to play smoothly and faster.

David

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And I think that is what I'm doing. I need to relax and let my fingers go where they go. 

Bill H - Posted - 04/03/2025:  16:27:32

There are varied styles of clwhammer, just as in 3 finger styles. Think Earl Scruggs, Don Reno, Bill Keith, Ralph Stanley. In clawhammer, Pete Seeger, Erik Darling, Adam Hurt, Dan Levinson, just to name a few, all have different styles. As you listen and practice you will find that you develop preferences for how you approach a tune and how you embellish or how much melody you you work in.

OldPappy - Posted - 04/03/2025:  22:11:18

I may be running against the grain here, but the worst thing that happened to me was learning the "bum-ditty pattern" first.



A more even rhythm can be achieved with a "double thumb" pattern, such as what Dwight Diller taught.



I studied under Dwight's instruction and the biggest handicap I had was that the "bum-ditty pattern" was so ingrained it was very difficult for me to get beyond it.



IMHO, The double thumb rhythm is more evenly balanced. If that is learned first, and later on one wants to play something with the "bum-ditty pattern" it is only a matter of incorporating a rest on one of the thumb strikes.



I play with a very steep angle of attack, my hand comes down, forefinger striking the note at the same time the thumb hooks the 5th string, hand is raised popping the 5th string, and immediately goes back down forefinger striking a note or brush, thumb hooking 5th string which gets popped again on the upstroke.



In the " bum-ditty pattern" the 5th string is only sounded once, making it a three part stroke. It has its place, but with a double thumb rhythm there are four parts of the stroke which is what I mean by it being more balanced.



Here is an example of Dwight's style of double thumbing, what he called "Boom-a-Lac-a"

Dwight Diller playing "Jimmy Johnson"

Here is another video well worth the watching.

Craig's interview with Diller











 

Edited by - OldPappy on 04/03/2025 22:17:16

Rusty - Posted - 04/04/2025:  05:34:34

Learn the basics of clawhammer, e.g., bum ditty, drop thumb, then find your style, it is a journey not a destination....

cevant - Posted - 04/04/2025:  20:36:33

Check out Eli Gilberts Youtube videos and his Patreon Clawhammer lessons for this double thumbing style.

youtu.be/0kgKjzRcUUg?si=srutFZrw5X7eZkVE

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/05/2025:  07:52:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by OldPappy

I may be running against the grain here, but the worst thing that happened to me was learning the "bum-ditty pattern" first.



A more even rhythm can be achieved with a "double thumb" pattern, such as what Dwight Diller taught.



I studied under Dwight's instruction and the biggest handicap I had was that the "bum-ditty pattern" was so ingrained it was very difficult for me to get beyond it.



IMHO, The double thumb rhythm is more evenly balanced. If that is learned first, and later on one wants to play something with the "bum-ditty pattern" it is only a matter of incorporating a rest on one of the thumb strikes.



I play with a very steep angle of attack, my hand comes down, forefinger striking the note at the same time the thumb hooks the 5th string, hand is raised popping the 5th string, and immediately goes back down forefinger striking a note or brush, thumb hooking 5th string which gets popped again on the upstroke.



In the " bum-ditty pattern" the 5th string is only sounded once, making it a three part stroke. It has its place, but with a double thumb rhythm there are four parts of the stroke which is what I mean by it being more balanced.



Here is an example of Dwight's style of double thumbing, what he called "Boom-a-Lac-a"

Dwight Diller playing "Jimmy Johnson"

Here is another video well worth the watching.

Craig's interview with Diller











 

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Thank you for your comment and for the video. It certainly gives me something to explore and learn more about. This is in the direction I want to go. 

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/05/2025:  07:53:38

quote:

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Originally posted by cevant

Check out Eli Gilberts Youtube videos and his Patreon Clawhammer lessons for this double thumbing style.



youtu.be/0kgKjzRcUUg?si=srutFZrw5X7eZkVE

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Thanks for the comment and the link to Eli Gilbert. There is a lot to explore there. 

BG Banjo - Posted - 04/05/2025:  07:56:21

quote:

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Originally posted by Rusty

Learn the basics of clawhammer, e.g., bum ditty, drop thumb, then find your style, it is a journey not a destination....

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Thanks for the comment. You are right, it is a never ending journey. Right now though I'm going in circles and I just want to find my way out of the woods.