Expat - Posted - 03/31/2025:  12:24:23

When playing in Double C tuning which string do you use more, the 2nd or the 4th? The follow-up question, why?

I have generally used the 2nd string for most C notes and some D notes. I rarely use the 4th string because I haven't practiced enough on it and the 2nd string seems to work well for me most of the time. However, sometimes I wonder if I should be using the fourth string for lower C and D notes and the 2nd string for higher C and D notes. When I speak of lower or higher I am speaking specifically of where the note would lie in standard musical notation.

Rusty - Posted - 03/31/2025:  12:39:20

I have never thought about it, I learn by ear so I couldn't even tell you the name of a note when I play. I do not read music.

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 03/31/2025:  12:52:44

If you play tunes in more than one octave you will have to use both of the strings. Practice doing scales from the open forth up to the open 2nd string and then go on up to the 10th fret on the 1st string to get the higher octave. To answer you question, I use them both as needed. You can use double stop and chord forms up the neck as well with drop thumb, a whole other topic.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/31/2025:  12:55:47

I hardly ever use double-d, but I tend to think the 2d string C is more used in fiddle tunes, thus played more on the banjo in C or D. Like Rusty, I play by ear, and just think about the note I’m after.

writerrad - Posted - 03/31/2025:  13:35:19

Pretty hard to answer that question since this will very from tune to tune and will vary is you are playing with a fiddler or in a string band or playing solo, also whether you are playing 2 finger, 3 finger or clawhammer.

I did notice when I played a lot of clawhammer in CC that you can get hooked up in playinb lead a lot on the top 2 strings and not get the avantage of the G and C strings.

CC tends to be better on more pentatonic tunes. Practicing the pentatonic scale in the first position and 2nd position can teach you a lot of things that are not apparent otherwise.

But just depends on how you are voicing tunes and what instrument you are playing with. Again it is hard to speak since this is all different from what technique you are using to play, and what style you aspire to,

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/31/2025:  15:30:26

I play mostly in double D...which is double C, capo 2. I do play a few double C tunes though.

It just depends on the tune. I tend to use chords a lot. Lots of 2-4 slides on the 4th string and bass runs too.

Wobba - Posted - 03/31/2025:  21:02:18

I never understand why people put the banjo in Double C and then capo at the 2nd fret to play in Double D. gDGBD has two Ds already. Even stranger is when they put it in Double C and don't play anything on the 4th string. They could just as well be playing in Sawmill tuning.

PHJim - Posted - 03/31/2025:  22:54:50

quote:

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Originally posted by Wobba

I never understand why people put the banjo in Double C and then capo at the 2nd fret to play in Double D. gDGBD has two Ds already. Even stranger is when they put it in Double C and don't play anything on the 4th string. They could just as well be playing in Sawmill tuning.

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You are making some basic assumptions Robert.  You are assuming that open G tuning is standard.  If you are a bluegrass player, this is probably your standard tuning, but clawhammer players probably spend as much time in double C or drop C as they do in open G.

Open G has two Ds as does double D, but they are arranged in a different order and it is easier to tune to double D than to re-learn licks and tunes in D using G tuning.  I don't know about others, but I like to finish on a lick that ends on a low C.

PHJim - Posted - 03/31/2025:  22:58:31

quote:

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Originally posted by Expat

When playing in Double C tuning which string do you use more, the 2nd or the 4th? The follow-up question, why?



I have generally used the 2nd string for most C notes and some D notes. I rarely use the 4th string because I haven't practiced enough on it and the 2nd string seems to work well for me most of the time. However, sometimes I wonder if I should be using the fourth string for lower C and D notes and the 2nd string for higher C and D notes. When I speak of lower or higher I am speaking specifically of where the note would lie in standard musical notation.

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It depends on where the tune goes, since they are an octave apart, they are not interchangeable.

carlb - Posted - 04/01/2025:  05:26:26

Besides using the 4th string as part of a musical phrase, I often hit it as a low drone.

Edited by - carlb on 04/01/2025 05:27:12

Eulalie - Posted - 04/01/2025:  05:44:35

quote:

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Originally posted by PHJim

quote:

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Originally posted by Wobba

I never understand why people put the banjo in Double C and then capo at the 2nd fret to play in Double D. gDGBD has two Ds already. Even stranger is when they put it in Double C and don't play anything on the 4th string. They could just as well be playing in Sawmill tuning.

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You are making some basic assumptions Robert.  You are assuming that open G tuning is standard.  If you are a bluegrass player, this is probably your standard tuning, but clawhammer players probably spend as much time in double C or drop C as they do in open G.

Open G has two Ds as does double D, but they are arranged in a different order and it is easier to tune to double D than to re-learn licks and tunes in D using G tuning.  I don't know about others, but I like to finish on a lick that ends on a low C.

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"Standard" tuning 100-plus years ago was gCGBD, and is meant to be the same tuning for plectrum banjo without the fifth string.  It is sometimes baffling when banjo players change tunings for different keys, but the important factor is having the proper drone on the fifth string.

If you follow the 20th-century revival standard tunings for festivals and jam situations, double-C or its capoed equivalent is expected.  With the 20th-century revival aesthetic, to get the most out of open-string resonance for different tunings, it is necessary that the fourth string be tuned to a note in the proper key. 

writerrad - Posted - 04/01/2025:  07:19:21

I used to have a lot of theories that led me to do a lot of looking around about tuning and pitching of banjos in history and among folk and show business banjoists.  I discovered my own idea that I was trying to prove was dead wrong but learned so many useful things.

It is also necessary to understand that pitching and tuning are different things, and the significant thing about a tuning is the intervals between the notes as opposed to the absolute pitch.    

Remember that banjos initially commonly had only 3 long strings and a  short string like the current fifth string.  The most common widespread tuning was the equivalent of the G tuning with the same intervals as the 5th,  3rd, 2nd, and 1st strings in the contemporary banjo, although the pitching was down to what we would call E. 

In such a tuning tunes in C and G were played out of the same tuning.  This was the most widespread tuning we know until largely due to the popularity of the banjo produced by Joel Sweeney as an entertainer on an international level, 5 string banjos with  a 4th string became more popular.  It is only at this point.   There was no separate tuning for G or C or rather their equivalents down around E or A.  There are still a few old time tunes of Black origin most notably Roustabout which traditional Black and white Southern players traditionally played in the C tuning, that feature a key change in that case,  the main verse in the  keys G and  or A,  and the B part in the keys of C or D, traces of when a separate tuning did not exist.    Its interesting to see how many of the most traditional or songs or songs that appear of Black origin can be played without the 4th string on a banjo tuned to the intervals of that the C and G tunings share.

We do also know that the CC tuning or its equivalent intervals was known in the early 1800s.  Converse in his memoir reported seeing a Black banjoist finger picking a banjo with the equivalent tuning when he was a teenager which must have been in the late 18340s or 50s.  However, there seems to be an exaggerated tendency among old time revivalists to use this tuning, when the regular C tuning was much more prevalent in the world of traditional banjo playing and in 19th century banjo playing in general.  The CC tuning is fairly rare among traditional African American banjoists even in North Carolina and Virginia..

Bluegrass ushered in the popularity of the G tuning among banjoists,.  The C tuning was much more popular and widespread and basically the tuning a banjoist would learn on, and was the tuning of popular music banjoists and certainly of African American banjoists like Gus Cannon who used the banjo for Blues and ragtime.

The popularity of CC and the focus on the wonderful  banjoists who use it seems to be a feature of the the old time banjo revival of the last 30 or 40 years rather than a representation of the banjo in the 19th and early 20th century.  The popularity of the G tuning seems to be largely a result of Bluegrass banjo without which most of us including me would not be here/

gentrixuk - Posted - 04/01/2025:  09:30:59

It can be nice to switch between the two during a tune to get a bit of variation. I reckon the high strings are nice for playing along with the melody and then switch to the low strings for something more rhythmic, or for back-up, especially if someone else is playing a break or singing

writerrad - Posted - 04/01/2025:  12:20:34

quote:I  have kept one of my banjos,  my Gold WL=250 tuned up in D tunings most of the past 15 years, either DD or open D, or a variety of the different more modal D tunings. 

People play in Double D because it is pretty easy especially for pentatonic tunes.   I could not imagine playing in DD or CC and not using the 4th string which has a lot of depth and punch especially on a sheep skin headed banjo.  A DD tune banjo is also pretty easily retuned to A tunings especially Sawmill.    

I participate in an old time jam where there are few other banjoists but a pack of fiddlers or at least violinists wishing to be taken as fiddlers.  They tend to like A and D more than I wish.  They never ever play in C, even though a number of Texas, to Arkansas, Missourim, West Tennessee, and Mississippi fiddle tunes are set in C, and especially from that area but also tunes associated with ragtime are often set in F/

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Originally posted by Wobba

I never understand why people put the banjo in Double C and then capo at the 2nd fret to play in Double D. gDGBD has two Ds already. Even stranger is when they put it in Double C and don't play anything on the 4th string. They could just as well be playing in Sawmill tuning.

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writerrad - Posted - 04/01/2025:  12:56:51

While we're at it there are some fine points about tunings.  There is some useful work on tunings in the section on Black banjoist tunings in Cece Conways African Echoes book that is helpful if you are looking at the evolution of tunings, even if it tends to be narrow in its field of discussion. 

Cece has told me that Tommy Thompson played a role in writing that section.   They link variants of banjo tunings to variants of fiddle tunings.  Fiddles and even violins (LOL) used to have a wider range of tunings even among concert performers, let alone fiddlers  Some of the variant tunings in the areas of Virginia and North Carolina they find they suggest were associated with those no longer used fiddle  tunings.

What tends to be neglected is the overall widespread use of the C tuning, as opposed to the CC tuning as probably the most widely used banjo tuning in the world in the late 19th century and early 20th century.  It is certainly the tuning that Earl Scruggs used to play songs in C  My own survey of traditional African American banjoists including those from areas where the CC tuning seems more widespread is that the C tuning is pretty widely circulated.   For example, Joe and Odell Thompson played in a compromise pitch when Joe's fiddle and Odell's banjo were tuned by Joe and Odell.  It was the standard G sharp and 10 cents of a pitch that was popular with many banjoists of their time, especially black banjoists, and tended to play songs others set in A or in G at that pitch.  They had an equivalent Csharp plus 10 cents tuning in which they played tunes others set in D or  C.  Odell played almost all of the C sharp tunes in the C tuning, and only played 2 tunes in CC.

It is a peculiarity of the current old time banjo revival that many revivalists players have never played tunes in the actual C tuning, unlike Charlie Poole, Marion Underwood, Gus Cannon, and thousands of other old time country banjoists.  

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/01/2025:  15:30:35

>>> When playing in Double C tuning which string do you use more, the 2nd or the 4th? The follow-up question, why?

Interesting question- One I've never considered.  For myself, I use whichever strings fulfill the requirements of the tune. 

writerrad and Eulalie both make important observations.  The tuning often provides sympathetic resonance whether or not all of the strings (usually the 4th) are used or not.  In my own setting of  Cluck Old Hen (gDGBD) there's a spot where I fret the 3rd string 5th fret for the sympathetic resonance with the rest of the open strings  which definitely colors the note.

My Dad's (b.1914) generation and before (in N. central Missouri)  used interval equivalents of gDGBD and gCGBD nearly exclusively, although I personally make use of CC quite a bit- I find it frees up my left hand. That tradition's repertoire included a lower amount of modal tunes than did that of Appalachia, and many of the modal tunes to be found could be rendered in gDGBD.

Tony's refrence to Conway's African Banjo Echoes in Appalachia is quite valuable as regards tunings, and overall.  IMHO, that book is indispensible.

hweinberg - Posted - 04/01/2025:  17:05:16

The short answer as mentioned several times above is Yes, you will use one or the other or both depending on the register you are playing in. That, is an octave up or an octave down.
Some tunes don't need the 4th unless you want to play the tune in a lower register. The more you play, the more you will "get it". Onward!

writerrad - Posted - 04/01/2025:  17:28:41

quote: " many of the modal tunes to be found could be rendered in gDGBD."

  Yes  I find that it is a matter of choice whether I retune to Sawmill  for tunes like Cluck or Kitchen Girl or whether I play them out of G and fret the C or whatever.

As a guitarist I like  playing unmodal chords against a modal tune,like playing the 5 chord where some might play the 7 chord for old Joe Clark which to me works in old time, but might get me asked to turn off my microphone in bluegrass. 

On banjo these tunes really slip into and out of the mode.  Just picked up a banjo and played Cluck in G with the c  notes all hammer ons rather than tuning the B string to C.  Much of the sound of these tunes, especially if a blues influence side is involved are really for a note somewhere between b and c rather than a straight C.

writerrad - Posted - 04/01/2025:  18:06:36

Cece's book is most valuable still in the observations about the actual banjo and fiddle playing of banjoists and fiddlers that Cece knew in North Carolina, Virginia, and Tennessee like Joe and Odell Thompson and Dink Roberts.  Almost everything she says about banjo history in it has been overwhelmed by more recent research, but when she wrote that book as her doctoral dissertation--how she found a way to use that as a dissertation for English I do not know-- the actual observations she makes about the players she knew are priceless.  She told me that Tommy Thompson, one of the early masters of revivalist old time banjo,, and her life companion until he passed, had a lot to do with the passages in that book about the actual banjo playing especially the section on Dink Roberts.  I own 2 copies of it, one being the first one I bought after finding it in the library of my university that I keep because it encouraged me to get back into playing music when all I had was a big hollow body jazz guitar.   Whatever its weaknesses, it is still one of the better thngs about the Black musicians that Cece and Tommy knew.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/01/2025:  22:41:12

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

Cece's book is most valuable still in the observations about the actual banjo and fiddle playing of banjoists and fiddlers that Cece knew in North Carolina, Virginia, and Tennessee like Joe and Odell Thompson and Dink Roberts.  Almost everything she says about banjo history in it has been overwhelmed by more recent research, but when she wrote that book as her doctoral dissertation--how she found a way to use that as a dissertation for English I do not know-- the actual observations she makes about the players she knew are priceless.  She told me that Tommy Thompson, one of the early masters of revivalist old time banjo,, and her life companion until he passed, had a lot to do with the passages in that book about the actual banjo playing especially the section on Dink Roberts.  I own 2 copies of it, one being the first one I bought after finding it in the library of my university that I keep because it encouraged me to get back into playing music when all I had was a big hollow body jazz guitar.   Whatever its weaknesses, it is still one of the better thngs about the Black musicians that Cece and Tommy knew.

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Conway & Thompson-  We owe them a debt of gratitude.

PHJim - Posted - 04/02/2025:  11:22:19

I prefer gCGCD (capo II) for fiddle tunes in D, but for backing vocals I use gCGBD.

banjoak - Posted - 04/03/2025:  02:49:24

quote:

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Originally posted by Expat

When playing in Double C tuning which string do you use more, the 2nd or the 4th? The follow-up question, why?



I have generally used the 2nd string for most C notes and some D notes. I rarely use the 4th string because I haven't practiced enough on it and the 2nd string seems to work well for me most of the time. However, sometimes I wonder if I should be using the fourth string for lower C and D notes and the 2nd string for higher C and D notes. When I speak of lower or higher I am speaking specifically of where the note would lie in standard musical notation.

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Not sure I get the question?

I mostly use double C (or up a step Double D) for more melodic/outline style; so play where need as the melodic line sits. For most part, can't really just switch octaves.

I suppose possible more of the 2nd string, esp fiddle tunes; as I can't think of any that don't use the second string, often that's right in the center of the melody; and some that don't melodically need the low on 4th string at all.

Expat - Posted - 04/03/2025:  13:05:35

I ask out of curiosity. I've been playing with a dulcimer group who plays in the key of D and I have been writing my own tab from the sheet music that they have available for every song. In their sheet music the C note is usually below the staff (lower octave) and every once in a while, in the middle of the staff (higher octave). Regardless of where it falls, I have usually been using the second string for every C note because it is easier for me and generally sounds better to me.

However, I don't have the best ear and wondered which C string others might use in Double C tuning.

banjoboyd - Posted - 04/05/2025:  07:23:33

Kevin -- You have to look at the total range of a given melody and figure out how it maps onto the banjo. A lot of old-time melodies in particular span 1.5-2 octaves, often with a distinct low and high section.



Let's assume a melody in D spans 1.5 octaves, and the lowest note is a D. If you are tuning aDADE, that lowest note will automatically be your open 4th string. Then just work your way up from there.



It gets more complicated if it's a melody in D but the lowest note isn't D. If the lowest note is C, you can either substitute it with something else or (less commonly) tune only your 4th string down a step. If the lowest note is G/A, then you might need to shift the whole thing up -- treat the D on the 2nd string as your "low" D and use the 3rd string for when the melody dips below that. Doing this will likely mean playing above the 5th fret when the melody goes high. 

Basically, you should retain the contour of the melody as much as possible. Different octaves of the same note are somewhat equivalent in the context of chords/harmony, but they aren't equivalent in the context of melodies/scales. 

mikeyes - Posted - 04/14/2025:  10:56:37

There are a couple of advantages with Double C/D tuning, at least one of them not so obvious.



There ate two octaves easily available and the lowest note on the octave is open. While there are other tunings (classical C tuning as mentioned in other parts of the thread, for example) that do this, these don’t have the other features noted below.



Having two strings an octave apart not only lets you have a drone note on the fourth string, but there are two notes in sympathy which adds to the complexity of playing a tune in that key. I play a thumb lead two finger style and often will hit the low string as a drone (or even by accident) giving the tune depth and fullness at times. It also lets the player have two open strings to get back to when the tune resolves.



The one thing I found out about double D tuning is that I can play in G and A by tuning one string when I switch. In the case of A I tune the lower D string to E giving me Sawmill A tuning which I use in place of standard G capoed up two frets. In order to tune to G then I tune down the fifth string to G resulting in an alternative G tuning that works most of the time and can be used for F tunes when the capo is removed - mostly used when accompanying song as it suits my voice.



This set of tunings has a lot of commonalities when it comes to playing up the neck and opens up a number of technical ideas in each key. As a result I find that I am not uncomfortable doing so.



I rarely (which means never) use standard G tuning anymore as a result. I don’t hate that tuning, but i used it for years playing bluegrass and found that it was OK but did not work as well with OT tunes. That is a personal preference on my part. I found that the other tunings opened up a lot more possibilities in my playing and exposed me to a lot of C tunes that I never considered before.

Edited by - mikeyes on 04/14/2025 10:59:10

slc - Posted - 04/14/2025:  11:55:49

For most D tunes, double C tuning with a capo to D seems like a no-brainer, and I'll often use all the strings for many tunes.



But for C fiddle tunes, it's like a whole 'nother world, and that double C tuning often means being "stuck" in a higher or lower range of strings as mentioned, and also it takes work to sound convincing.

What works best for me is to use G tuning, with the capo across the fifth fret (a guitar capo works well for this, because it handles the wider neck and better avoids the 5th string peg), leaving the 5th string still open at G. Those string notes - GECGg - seem to lay out very nicely under the hand for a great many C fiddle tunes. Plus, the higher range can 'fit' well into a jam's overall sound, and not "compete" tonally with other banjos using double C.

I haven't seen anyone else do it this way, so I'd be curious if it works for others.

carlb - Posted - 04/15/2025:  04:22:48

quote:

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Originally posted by slc

For most D tunes, double C tuning with a capo to D seems like a no-brainer, and I'll often use all the strings for many tunes.



But for C fiddle tunes, it's like a whole 'nother world, and that double C tuning often means being "stuck" in a higher or lower range of strings as mentioned, and also it takes work to sound convincing.

What works best for me is to use G tuning, with the capo across the fifth fret (a guitar capo works well for this, because it handles the wider neck and better avoids the 5th string peg), leaving the 5th string still open at G. Those string notes - GECGg - seem to lay out very nicely under the hand for a great many C fiddle tunes. Plus, the higher range can 'fit' well into a jam's overall sound, and not "compete" tonally with other banjos using double C.

I haven't seen anyone else do it this way, so I'd be curious if it works for others.

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For C tunes, I prefer to play in open C (gCGCE), which saves you two frets on the top end. That works best for me.