BG Banjo - Posted - 03/08/2025:  07:47:10

Background: I started out as a bluegrass guitar player who switched to banjo because we had too many guitar players and no banjo players. In a world of guitars, be the banjo, that's me. So I bought me a resonator banjo, learned to roll, to vamp, to pinch, to slide and do what I need to do to be the bluegrass banjo player. I have lots of fun with it.



Hitch in the giddyup: When I was a guitar player I liked to sing. I can't sing and roll at the same time.



Solution: I discovered clawhammer and I can sing to it. I think, I just got started with it. At least there is the potential there.



I've been learning clawhammer on my bluegrass resonator banjo over the head. I'm fixing to buy an open back banjo to play claw hammer on. I've read the threads from as far back as 2018 about scoops and have pretty much come to the conclusion that some people like them and some don't. I guess if I decide to play over the neck I might go that route, but right now I'm not. I know a lot of you play over the neck. Out of curiosity, how many people do clawhammer over the head?



My second question, would a wide neck help me, or just screw me up switching back and forth? I don't see me abandoning my place in the band to pursue clawhammer as a way of life.



Third and final question, for now, is there a benefit to a twelve inch pot? The Gold Tone Bob Carlin with a 12" head and a wide neck has been calling to me. I'm not hooked on it, just wondering.

Thanks.

Edited by - BG Banjo on 03/08/2025 07:50:08

J Hall - Posted - 03/08/2025:  08:10:25

I play mainly over the head, both my banjos have scoops and they're nice to have but not necessary. Plenty on players play over the neck without a scoop after all.

I like a wider neck than the traditional bluegrass nut width, but I returned the Gold Tone Carlin I bought because the neck on that thing is absolutely enormous. I'd strongly recommend trying one out before commiting because it's a baseball bat!

banjered - Posted - 03/08/2025:  10:57:44

I and others have discussed this topic at length. At the "Q" to the left of this page type in "Singing with the banjo" and see if that answers some/all your questions. banjered

Bill H - Posted - 03/08/2025:  12:52:17

I attended a Joe Newberry-April Verch concert last night. Joe's banjo did not have a scoop nor did he play over the neck. I have never had the inclination to either. This was a regional style that has really caught on. It is purely a matter of personal preference. And you do not need a scoop to play over the neck.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/08/2025:  13:35:45

I like a wide fingerboard, especially for clawhammer and other old-time styles that emphasize the use of the open strings. If you can switch between playing banjo and guitar, I wouldn't expect you to have much problem getting used to having 2 banjos with different neck widths.

Rusty - Posted - 03/08/2025:  13:46:20

12-inch pot is going to be a deeper richer sound, more plunky, I have 2 12 inch and 1 11 inches. I play the 12-inch banjos way more. The scoop question is all about the tune you are playing and the sound you want for that particular tune. My 2 12-inch pot banjos have scoops, I love the different sound over the neck for certain tunes. No right or wrong, all about what you want as a sound. Clawhammer was played on banjos with resonators quite often, before electricity and amps it gave volume to be heard against the other instruments. I own a Bart Reiter 12 inch open back, a Pisgah 12 inch open back and a Deering Kingston Trio Long Neck 11-inch pot banjo. I love all three for different applications.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/08/2025:  15:48:20

Thanks for all the good responses. I'm going to hold off on the Bob Carlin Gold Tone for a while. I have a lot to consider.

banjered - Posted - 03/08/2025:  16:25:39

Festivals are coming up. Get your hands and ears on as many banjos as you can for a while. banjered

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 03/09/2025:  05:55:48

I would keep working on rolling and singing at the same time. It's hard to do at the beginning but gets easier.

I say that because the social context in bluegrass is much more amenable to singing than it is in "modern" old-time and because the other players have more experience in accompaniment vs playing the melody all the time.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/09/2025:  07:14:46

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill H

I attended a Joe Newberry-April Verch concert last night. Joe's banjo did not have a scoop nor did he play over the neck. I have never had the inclination to either. This was a regional style that has really caught on. It is purely a matter of personal preference. And you do not need a scoop to play over the neck.

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Thanks for that comment. I over think things sometimes. It is good to be reminded that I can do whatever I want with whatever I have.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/09/2025:  07:18:27

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

I like a wide fingerboard, especially for clawhammer and other old-time styles that emphasize the use of the open strings. If you can switch between playing banjo and guitar, I wouldn't expect you to have much problem getting used to having 2 banjos with different neck widths.

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A good point. I switch between banjo and guitar all the time. Every once in a while I will grab a guitar for one song and then switch back. I'm used to different neck sizes. I think that 12" pot is what is calling to me. It sounds interesting.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/09/2025:  07:32:15

quote:

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

I would keep working on rolling and singing at the same time. It's hard to do at the beginning but gets easier.



I say that because the social context in bluegrass is much more amenable to singing than it is in "modern" old-time and because the other players have more experience in accompaniment vs playing the melody all the time.

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I think that singing is not my only motivation. In our little group of bluegrass troubadours there are a few fragile guitar players, one in particular is particularly fragile. Everyone else likes to go all out, but those few gets lost if there is too much going on. I try to vamp in the background with them and not do anything to throw them off the tracks. I thought that clawhammer would be another tool in the box to use. The bum ditty seems to settle into their boom chucka well. Like I said, I can see several applications for it in my playing. I play out a lot and I want to be able to accommodate everyone.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/09/2025:  09:45:10

quote:

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Originally posted by BG Banjo

quote:

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Originally posted by earlstanleycrowe

I would keep working on rolling and singing at the same time. It's hard to do at the beginning but gets easier.



I say that because the social context in bluegrass is much more amenable to singing than it is in "modern" old-time and because the other players have more experience in accompaniment vs playing the melody all the time.

---

I think that singing is not my only motivation. In our little group of bluegrass troubadours there are a few fragile guitar players, one in particular is particularly fragile. Everyone else likes to go all out, but those few gets lost if there is too much going on. I try to vamp in the background with them and not do anything to throw them off the tracks. I thought that clawhammer would be another tool in the box to use. The bum ditty seems to settle into their boom chucka well. Like I said, I can see several applications for it in my playing. I play out a lot and I want to be able to accommodate everyone.

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You can also get a nice flowing bum-ditty/bumpa-ditty vamp like that out of thumb-lead 2-finger (or the same pattern with 3 fingers,  by alternating the middle with the index).

jgaughan - Posted - 03/10/2025:  07:51:54

If you're playing a banjo and it's comfortable, I would recommend that you stay with the same nut width. Wide nut width can be a problem.

writerrad - Posted - 03/10/2025:  12:53:31

 I am not one to have a straight face when advising someone not to buy an additional banjo.  As far as I can see no banjo a banjoist does not own is really that "additional."

  it is simply a prejudice among late 1950s and 1960s and 70s old time music revivalists that clawhammer must be played on an open back banjo. That prejudice was NOT shared by traditional Black and white Southern banjoists. 

Very much of the picturing of such banjoists from the 50s and 60 and 70s is a result of old time music revivalists from universities suggesting that it was somehow more traditional to play on open back.  Very frequently, pictures we have of such banjoists playing open backs are pictures of them playing banjos that were not their own, banjo that belonged to folkies from outside the area who thought they should be playing open backs, when their own banjo was not. 

I have to say visiting the homes of banjo historians and revivalist banjo players who were around in the 1950s through the 1980s,  I am constantly being shown banjos that were used by banjoists like Dink Roberts or Odell Thompson that belonged to the revivalist.  Dink's own banjo had a resonator.  When Odell had the opportunity to get a banjo of his choice from Deering, he obtained an RB.

 On the contrary, some of the greatest players in the history of claw hammer played RBs.   Uncle Dave Macon certainly did.  He only stopped using RBs when old age and arthritis afflicted him. and he had difficulty with the size and weight of RBs that he had been playing since they were first available in the 1920s.  He had Gibson make him special versions of the RBs he owned that were open backs with a dowel stick.   This was only because it was too much for him to physically manipulate the RBs that he had been using since they became available.

The same could be said for a whole slew of traditional Southern banjo players ,  Black and white, who played down picking or 2 finger banjo.

  About 10 years ago I did a study of the Black banjo players on the digital library of Appalachia.for a presentation I did at the Banjo Gathering on what banjos the Black banjoists on the digital library used.   In almost every case, these banjoists were playing the inexpensive Japanese invasion RBs that you could get when Kip Lornell and others make these recordings in the 1970s and 1980s if they could not afford a Gibson RB.   I found that in most of the cases that these banjoists were playing an open back, especially if the banjo ended up being a Boston banjo, it was not the traditional banjoist's banjo but a banjo that an old time music enthusiast or  banjo historian owned and supplied only for the recording.

If like any intelligent person you spend time watching the videos of the Flatt and Scruggs show on YouTube if you were not around to purchase DVDs of such when they were once offered, you will notice that when Paul Warren did his claw hammer banjo pieces,  he did not resort to finding an open back, but simply borrowed Earl's RB.

As an old time player  who owns 5 open backs and only one  rb. I dont think there is any special reason to play an open back to play clawhammer.  I actually bought my Rb, a bottom of the line Recording King "Dirty 30s" RB, because it resembled the banjos that the traditional Black and white Southern banjoists I study much more than the wonderful Vega,  Fairbanks, Enoch, and Gold Tone open backs I own.



One of the great regrets of my banjo life is being suckered in by this idea and not purchasing a nice RB earlier in my career.  

Edited by - writerrad on 03/10/2025 13:16:26

writerrad - Posted - 03/10/2025:  13:20:18

Scoops are a recent innovation in old time banjo playing that were not generally used by old time players across the country and were a feature largely introduced by Creed and other banjoists of his generation and area, and were completely unknown when old time banjo was extant,and not revivalist.  In 1960 or 1950 let alone 1930 or 1920,  no one on Earth would have known what anyone was talking about if you discussed "scoops."

writerrad - Posted - 03/10/2025:  13:22:50

quote:

I would stay with the same banjo you are playing.  In the Martha White show and in several of the recorded live concert,  Paul Warren simply borrows Earl's Gibson to play his terrific clawhammer.

Now that is THE bluegrass RB.  If it is good enough for Warren,  yours ought to be good enough for you,

writerrad - Posted - 03/10/2025:  13:26:17

Whatever RB you have for bluegrass is going to be a better banjo that that Gold Tone Carlin model.  I dont think it is a bad banjo and first met bob about 20 years ago when he came down here to work with Gold Tone on it.  You dont need another banjo if you have a good RB for bluegrass.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/12/2025:  09:52:17

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

Whatever RB you have for bluegrass is going to be a better banjo that that Gold Tone Carlin model.  I dont think it is a bad banjo and first met bob about 20 years ago when he came down here to work with Gold Tone on it.  You dont need another banjo if you have a good RB for bluegrass.

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Thanks for all the insightful comments. I do appreciate it and I'm not being facetious. When it comes down to it, I doubt that I'll haul around two banjos just so I can do clawhammer on one when I want to sing a song. I'll probably just do it on my resonator banjo. That said, I may just have to buy it anyway. Because it looks interesting and fun. We will see. I'm not one jump into a purchase, I like thinking about it too much. Maybe if I still want it next week.  

writerrad - Posted - 03/12/2025:  16:05:03

Like everyone who asks a question like this here, I hope when you make a decision and do what you are going to do, that you post here on the hangout again to let us know what you did.



I also think it would be better to get in a little Clawhammer banjo playing before you decide what kind of banjo you will get.  The RB might suffice, but you might even want a different kind of RB or not.



For example, I know from having been around at the time Bob and Gold Tone got together about 22 years ago that the Bob Carlin banjo was designed to create an affordable banjo that answered the needs of people who were interested in the Round Peake style of playing made popular by Tommy Jarrell and Kyle Creed,.  I know in this banjo Bob and Gold Tone were seeking to emulate in an affordable manner the banjos that Kyle Creed designed.   Bob was one of the young people who went down to North Carolina and got to know and learn from Creed and Jarrell and all of those players, and spent considerable time learning their style.

However, you might not be interested in that style.  Since you can play clawhammer with your RB, once you are doing more clawhammer you might have a more defined desire of what you want.

Of course, there is no one banjo that is the solution,  I own 7 and only because I am an old guy who realizes I have to leave some banjos for young folks, do I not get more.



However, as you become more of a clawhammer or down picking player you might be interested in other styles and might be interested in a banjo with other features. Not knocking that model of the banjo, but I would suggest since you have an RB, there is no harm in using it and getting into clawhammer on it. Once you are playing clawhammer more you might have a more specific need or desire if you want another banjo. I own 5 open backs each has its own particular joy and is good for different kinds of clawhammer. If you get into clawhammer you may have a taste in direction,



On the other hand, as an old time banjo player, I usually take two banjos if I am going to play at a jam or a band performance or accompany someone, I take one tune in the G tuning and one tuned in a C tuning, either CC, or the true C tuning. Old time players tend to play in different tunings for different keys. Rather than stopping to retune, I go from one banjo to another,

Edited by - writerrad on 03/12/2025 16:09:29

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/13/2025:  16:23:14

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

 

 ...In almost every case, these banjoists were playing the inexpensive Japanese invasion RBs that you could get when Kip Lornell and others make these recordings in the 1970s and 1980s if they could not afford a Gibson RB...

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I recall all of the old-timers playing on Sears SilverBells, Harmonys, and Kays,  all with, as Tony points out, a resonator.

My Dad bought me my first banjo for my 13th birthday in 1969 from a local pawnshop for $40.  It was a Harmony Reso-Tone.  At one point I removed the resonator, and my Dad promptly took me to task for "devaluating" the instrument.

If you have doubts about CH on an RB, you have to look no further than Wade Ward:

Wade Ward plays Old Jimmy Sutton

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/21/2025:  07:00:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill H

I attended a Joe Newberry-April Verch concert last night. Joe's banjo did not have a scoop nor did he play over the neck. I have never had the inclination to either. This was a regional style that has really caught on. It is purely a matter of personal preference. And you do not need a scoop to play over the neck.

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All very true, I'm sure that there are a number of great clawhammer players playing without the scoop and not over the neck. But I see no benefit in not having that option, as long as I'm buying a banjo to play clawhammer I might as well buy one with.

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/21/2025:  07:08:22

quote:

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Originally posted by jgaughan

If you're playing a banjo and it's comfortable, I would recommend that you stay with the same nut width. Wide nut width can be a problem.

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And that is something I'm weighing in the decision. But comments and reviews are going about two to one, love the wider neck to it's going to be a problem. 

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/26/2025:  06:44:29

It is on the way. If I'm honest with myself, I came here for help justifying something that doesn't need to be justified. The thing that actually pushed me over the fence is that I had two resonator banjos and I didn't want to accumulate more banjos. But one of of them had sat on Facebook Marketplace for a month or more and it sold the other day. I think what I like about the Carlin12 is that it is a lot different than my other one. So we will see how it goes. Thanks all for helping me make the decision, even those who tried to talk me out of it. ;)

Joel Hooks - Posted - 03/26/2025:  07:50:29

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

Scoops are a recent innovation in old time banjo playing that were not generally used by old time players across the country and were a feature largely introduced by Creed and other banjoists of his generation and area, and were completely unknown when old time banjo was extant,and not revivalist.  In 1960 or 1950 let alone 1930 or 1920,  no one on Earth would have known what anyone was talking about if you discussed "scoops."

---

I believe that the current consensus is that Bob Flesher introduced the modern scoop, upon request for such modification, in 1965.  So this, technically, is not a "regional style" feature, but a Folk Revival interpretation of a regional style. 



It is my understanding that Kyle Creed did not build banjos with "scoops" or even play one with this feature. 

janolov - Posted - 03/26/2025:  07:57:51

Here is a little video of Kyle Creek and one of his banjos: no scope!

youtu.be/nIMoA2yqUZE

writerrad - Posted - 03/26/2025:  11:52:16

I have no doubt Joel is right.

 In fact I just posted on a the Facebook OT Banjo group a photo of myself holding the Creed that Tommy Jarrell played on many of his recordings that  Paul Brown brought to the banjo collectors gathering in 2006.  I noticed that the banjo was completely fretless when my messed up memory was that it might have been half fret less and had scoop.

Thanks, this is very consistent rather than my senile memory that Creeds had them.   Joel's integrity and desire to get the facts right and energy to do so is unmatched, or rather should be matched.

 If Joel told me my name was wrong, I would  not only look into my wallet for my drivers license, but also check my passport!,  I would also consult my birth certificate from the City of NYC and my Baptismal Certificate from the Archdiocese.  

Most discussions I have heard of the innovations Creed made from people who know more about it than I do have focused on his desire to make open back banjos with some of the power and advantages he saw in the Gibson Resonator Banjo rather than any yearning for the past.  Creed lived in an area where RBs were often being used in the bands his customers made, and I think he intended on making banjos that could keep up with the RBs.

I have two banjos with scoops out of the 7 I actually use, since I work on blues and ragtime pieces in two finger and 4 finger, I do find the absence of frets I am used to an encumbrance.   I really do not play anything that requires  a "cluck" which I do think I have ever heard in the hundreds of recordings I have of African American banjos.

Thanks for the correction!

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

Scoops are a recent innovation in old time banjo playing that were not generally used by old time players across the country and were a feature largely introduced by Creed and other banjoists of his generation and area, and were completely unknown when old time banjo was extant,and not revivalist.  In 1960 or 1950 let alone 1930 or 1920,  no one on Earth would have known what anyone was talking about if you discussed "scoops."

---

I believe that the current consensus is that Bob Flesher introduced the modern scoop, upon request for such modification, in 1965.  So this, technically, is not a "regional style" feature, but a Folk Revival interpretation of a regional style. 



It is my understanding that Kyle Creed did not build banjos with "scoops" or even play one with this feature. 

---

writerrad - Posted - 03/26/2025:  12:10:45

The absence of singing is an aberration or fashion in current old time music playing which reflects the tendency in the past 10-15 years of it being swamped by fiddlers, and the mistaken idea that fiddle tunes were at the center of old time music, so that  people think it is only fiddling,   Here in Florida there is an otherwise wonderful jam--will not name names to protect the guilty--where only fiddlers are allowed to call tunes, while banjoists and guitarists and mandolin players are not.

That was not true in the old time music revival's earlier days in the 1950s and 1960s but a trend I think began in the 1970s or 1980s. It seems a bit weird to me to go to old-time jams where only fiddle tunes are played and no songs are sun.  This is a massive debenture in the current old time banjo world.   Most people who learn old time banjo today are taught to play the lead melody of fiddle tunesm which is not at all the task of a banjo in old time bands.  I see lessons and recordings of all sorts of  fiddle tunes by banjoists of fiddle tunes that no one can point to any old time banjoist ever playing either as  even an accompanist.

All we know of the banjo's history is that it was designed for accompanying singing.  To be sure the pitching problems of contemporary banjos make it harder to sing with than say a guitar, but it is done 

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/28/2025:  11:18:47

Is that a scoop? If so, I hazard to guess that's before 1965.

Edited by - BG Banjo on 03/28/2025 11:31:14

Is that a scoop?

 

Eulalie - Posted - 03/28/2025:  11:46:49

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

All we know of the banjo's history is that it was designed for accompanying singing.  To be sure the pitching problems of contemporary banjos make it harder to sing with than say a guitar, but it is done 

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Amen.  You've provided a good snapshot of how the revival modified the historical aspect of old music and reformed it to suit the values of the late twentieth century.  While there certainly was an exclusive dance repertory, singing was—and is—an important aspect of old-time music.  I'll take it a step further and say that many so-called "crooked" fiddle tunes have an unusual metric or phrase structure because the musical phrasing is based upon now forgotten words to the original songs.

cow_tools - Posted - 03/28/2025:  11:49:29

If you ever see yourself playing bluegrass on your future openback then the scoop will eventually start to annoy you as its quite limiting in the upper register. This is why i'm partial to the 5th string scoop, which only removes fretboard/fret material under the 5th string. It's nice to be able to pull out a much quieter open-back for scruggs style when practicing late at night, or just jamming with a single guitar player.

Eulalie - Posted - 03/28/2025:  12:44:01

quote:

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Originally posted by cow_tools

... or just jamming with a single guitar player.

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What does marital status have to do with resonator vs. open back?

cow_tools - Posted - 03/28/2025:  12:47:51

Most single guys live in one bedroom apartments so you need to keep the noise down

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/28/2025:  13:41:53

quote:

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Originally posted by cow_tools

If you ever see yourself playing bluegrass on your future openback then the scoop will eventually start to annoy you as its quite limiting in the upper register. This is why i'm partial to the 5th string scoop, which only removes fretboard/fret material under the 5th string. It's nice to be able to pull out a much quieter open-back for scruggs style when practicing late at night, or just jamming with a single guitar player.

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I see myself playing bluegrass right now, and I have a banjo for that. I see myself playing clawhammer with the new one.

banjoboyd - Posted - 03/30/2025:  08:15:00

quote:

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Originally posted by BG Banjo

Is that a scoop? If so, I hazard to guess that's before 1965.

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Nope. The gap you see on some historical banjos was the result of certain design/manufacturing considerations, not playing technique considerations. The action on those banjos was so high around the neck joint that your hand would already be floating above the fingerboard, so adding even more vertical clearance wouldn't actually accomplish anything. And those banjos were really intended to be played (not to say they were never played in other ways) over the head, relatively close to the bridge. With low tuning (a 4th-5th below modern tuning), that's necessary to get a focused sound. 

BG Banjo - Posted - 03/31/2025:  15:39:07

Well it came while I was eating lunch today. It is pretty nice. My biggest concern was the wider neck. It took about a minute to get acquainted with it. Then after an hour or so playing I thought that I would just switch to the OB-250 with the narrow neck and see what happened. No problem. Switched back to the Carlin12 after a half hour and no problem. Played the Carlin12 another half hour and called it quits for today. I don't think it is going to be a problem.

The jury is out on the scoop. I think it is going to be good, but I tend to play over the head, so I catch myself slipping back. But I think that in a couple days I'll be glad I have it. Nothing lost if I decide I don't. I like the tone of the 12" head.

So that isn't a review, I'll do one after I've played it a month or two. This is just first impressions. But I was a little apprehensive about the neck and am glad to see that it is going to be fine. In fact, I think it is easier to hit the individual strings when I play, and that is what I hoped it would be. I can tell right now there won't be a hitch. So there you go.

Wobba - Posted - 03/31/2025:  21:06:37

The CC Carlin-12 has an amazing sound. I have one. I love how it sounds. it sounds like a banjo twice its price. The simple flat rolled tone ring does an amazing job. And the 12" rim with a renaissance head give it some really deep tones. I play two finger thumb lead on it and it works really good for that.