Muskokandrew - Posted - 12/29/2024:  16:27:31

I have a Fender banjo which I play in a classic rock cover band. Not sure of the model, but I gather the Chinese-built models like mine are pretty much all beginner-intermediate instruments. I've installed a Schatten pickup and the sound is... OK, I guess. Kinda tinny.. all about the attack with no resonance or tone... perfectly fine, I suppose. At some point I'll likely upgrade the banjo, but in the meantime, is it worth looking at a different pickup? Or maybe switching to a mic like an SM 57 rather than a pickup? Or is that just putting lipstick on the pig? (Adding a mic might be tricky anyway -- I already have an SM 58 for vocals, plus a 57 that I use for flute/tin whistle on some songs... just the simple logistics of having three mics on one player gives me the heebie jeebies.)
I suspect my next banjo might be something electric anyway. But ideally I'd like to save up some coin before I do that so that I can get something really good.

staceyz - Posted - 12/29/2024:  17:01:11

The best pickup to put on a banjo..?


a Ford F-150... (sorry couldn't resist)..!

corn - Posted - 12/29/2024:  17:13:52

Andrew,
You have a good pickup choice, and if you have an instrument that is set up well, then you have everything needed for success. My recommendation is to consider how your signal is being processed. Try investigating preamps that allow you to get a consistent signal. I have had considerable success using the ToneDexter from Audio Sprockets for my touring set up. This particular unit allows you to use wave maps, that you have modeled from a Mic and Piezo, then when playing live you simply use your piezo input. You no longer have to fight the problems associated with using mics on a live/loud stage. (ie, feedback and thin/tinny sound). There are other options out there, such as using IR's and units such as the Helix series processors, but the most economic choice to get you into that world would be the Audio Sprocket unit.
Hope that Helps and gives you a starting point,
Corn

Keith Billik - Posted - 12/29/2024:  17:16:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by Muskokandrew

I have a Fender banjo which I play in a classic rock cover band. Not sure of the model, but I gather the Chinese-built models like mine are pretty much all beginner-intermediate instruments. I've installed a Schatten pickup and the sound is... OK, I guess. Kinda tinny.. all about the attack with no resonance or tone... perfectly fine, I suppose. At some point I'll likely upgrade the banjo, but in the meantime, is it worth looking at a different pickup? Or maybe switching to a mic like an SM 57 rather than a pickup? Or is that just putting lipstick on the pig? (Adding a mic might be tricky anyway -- I already have an SM 58 for vocals, plus a 57 that I use for flute/tin whistle on some songs... just the simple logistics of having three mics on one player gives me the heebie jeebies.)

I suspect my next banjo might be something electric anyway. But ideally I'd like to save up some coin before I do that so that I can get something really good.

---

IMO the Schatten is among the worst sounding pickups: exactly how you described, very brittle and pingy with no resonance or tone. The nicest banjo you can possibly buy will still sound like $h!t if you're sticking with the Schatten.

My favorite pickup is the EMG ACB Barrel or the Fishman. Either one will be a huge improvement.

Old Hickory - Posted - 12/29/2024:  19:08:06

For a loud stage environment such as yours -- electric instruments and drums -- I think an outright electric banjo such as the Gold Tone or a Deering Crossfire is the way to go. Or a humbucking pickup such as the EMG in a banjo in which the pot has been stuffed with rigid foam insulation or other material.

These options were demonstrated by Ned Luberecki in a session during the online/virtual Midwest Banjo Camp in 2021. He said essentially that for loud environments you go more for volume than realism.

In your kind of situation, feedback is a problem and a reason not to use acoustic pickups.

Keith Billik recently released an episode of his Picky Fingers Banjo Podcast with the developers of the Tone Dexter pedal/DI as the guests. In brief: Tone Dexter is a pedal that can learn the acoustic/microphone sound of your banjo. Then it substitutes that sound when you're using a pickup. Search out demos online as well as the podcast. I haven't listened to it yet.

Reason I bring it up is I submitted a question to Keith (when he put out a call for questions to his listeners) asking whether you could train the Tone Dexter on the acoustic sound of your preferred banjo then play an electric banjo such as the Gold Tone or Crossfire through the engaged Tone Dexter and have the sound come out as your acoustic banjo. Seems to me that would be the ideal solution to getting real banjo sound out of a feedback resistant electric banjo. I don't know if this question made the show. At a minimum, Tone Dexter should substitute learned acoustic banjo sound for the sound of a banjo through an EMG electric pickup.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

As to your better pickup vs better banjo question: I'd say pickup (unless you go for an electric banjo). I don't think a high quality flathead banjo is going to sound better through any pickup than your Fender Masterclone will sound through the same pickup. I've heard plenty of acoustic guitars of all levels -- Yamaha and Takamine to Martin -- through pickups and there's no appreciable difference. I think pickups are the great equalizers.  They make good instruments sound no better than cheap instruments.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

Final point. Almost every time I've heard a realistic banjo through a pickup and was able to ask the player what they were using, it was a Fishman. But these were all acoustic bluegrass bands -- at festivals, house concerts, or other venues.

In Nashvillein OCtoberI heard great amplified sound from a player using a Nechville pickup in hs Nechville banjo. 

Keith Billik - Posted - 12/29/2024:  19:56:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

For a loud stage environment such as yours -- electric instruments and drums -- I think an outright electric banjo such as the Gold Tone or a Deering Crossfire is the way to go. Or a humbucking pickup such as the EMG in a banjo in which the pot has been stuffed with rigid foam insulation or other material.

These options were demonstrated by Ned Luberecki in a session during the online/virtual Midwest Banjo Camp in 2021. He said essentially that for loud environments you go more for volume than realism.

In your kind of situation, feedback is a problem and a reason not to use acoustic pickups.

Keith Billik recently released an episode of his Picky Fingers Banjo Podcast with the developers of the Tone Dexter pedal/DI as the guests. In brief: Tone Dexter is a pedal that can learn the acoustic/microphone sound of your banjo. Then it substitutes that sound when you're using a pickup. Search out demos online as well as the podcast. I haven't listened to it yet.

Reason I bring it up is I submitted a question to Keith (when he put out a call for questions to his listeners) asking whether you could train the Tone Dexter on the acoustic sound of your preferred banjo then play an electric banjo such as the Gold Tone or Crossfire through the engaged Tone Dexter and have the sound come out as your acoustic banjo. Seems to me that would be the ideal solution to getting real banjo sound out of a feedback resistant electric banjo. I don't know if this question made the show. At a minimum, Tone Dexter should substitute learned acoustic banjo sound for the sound of a banjo through an EMG electric pickup.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

As to your better pickup vs better banjo question: I'd say pickup (unless you go for an electric banjo). I don't think a high quality flathead banjo is going to sound better through any pickup than your Fender Masterclone will sound through the same pickup. I've heard plenty of acoustic guitars of all levels -- Yamaha and Takamine to Martin -- through pickups and there's no appreciable difference. I think pickups are the great equalizers.  They make good instruments sound no better than cheap instruments.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

Final point. Almost every time I've heard a realistic banjo through a pickup and was able to ask the player what they were using, it was a Fishman. But these were all acoustic bluegrass bands -- at festivals, house concerts, or other venues.

In Nashvillein OCtoberI heard great amplified sound from a player using a Nechville pickup in hs Nechville banjo. 

---

Thanks for the plug, Ken. Your question (or at least a variation of it) did indeed make it into the interview. The short answer is that no, that is not something the ToneDexter is designed to do; it doesn't capture a specific tone and model it- rather it "learns" how to process a given input to arrive at the desired output. So, because the Crossfire will give a vastly different input compared to a Mastertone-type instrument, you won't get the same output. The best chance of getting something in the ballpark is to use the identical pickup when training the ToneDexter. Hope that makes sense, obviously there is a much more detailed explanation in the episode.

KCJones - Posted - 12/30/2024:  06:48:35

My only input is that amplified tone of a banjo does not come from the acoustic tone of the banjo. They are almost entirely unrelated, and this is especially true if you're using a magnetic pickup.

The best electric banjo is probably a cheap banjo with high end electronics and carefully considered tone shaping. It doesn't matter what banjo or pickup you have. What matters is that you have a good preamp, EQ, compression, and reverb.

Electrified banjos are, effectively, a midi synth. You need to create your own tone with FX. Approaching the problem from this perspective makes it easier to solve.

Old Hickory - Posted - 12/30/2024:  07:45:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

My only input is that amplified tone of a banjo does not come from the acoustic tone of the banjo. They are almost entirely unrelated, and this is especially true if you're using a magnetic pickup.

---

Old Hickory - Posted - 12/30/2024:  07:58:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Keith Billik

Your question (or at least a variation of it) did indeed make it into the interview. The short answer is that no, that is not something the ToneDexter is designed to do; it doesn't capture a specific tone and model it- rather it "learns" how to process a given input to arrive at the desired output. 

---

Totally understandable, Keith. At a layperson's level I understand they're saying the pickup signal to be massaged into acoustic-sounding tone has to come from the same instrument. It's not a modeler/emulator or midi/synth where any input can be turned into the sound of my favorite live performance banjo.

I will have to give the show a listen. The few videos I've seen are sufficiently impressive that if I ever get back to live gigging and need to use my pickup (highly unlikely) I'm buying a Tone Dexter. Or maybe both a Tone Dexter and a Fishman.

Lew H - Posted - 12/30/2024:  15:59:34

At a few open mics, I have just stuffed an SM-57 inside the pot of my open back banjo. I've read of bluegrass pickers with resonator banjos attaching mics to their coordinator rods with velcro. That's a lower tech solution.

banjoak - Posted - 12/30/2024:  16:44:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

My only input is that amplified tone of a banjo does not come from the acoustic tone of the banjo. They are almost entirely unrelated, and this is especially true if you're using a magnetic pickup.

---

This can include microphones, especially in close micing; like for a loud stage... the choice of mic and where you aim it can have big affect on the tone.

-----------

The Impulse Response, like Tonedexter, is pretty awesome; idea is the to replace the sound of pickup with the sound of the banjo through a mic, so similarly the mic and placement plays a role in that process.

The process, ideally, is measuring the difference in how sound reacts in output between the input signal going though that banjo's PU system and input of that banjo sound as through that mic set-up. It presumes the banjo and mic setup sounds good. That said, it is possible to use other banjo IRs, and if the PU setup is similar, while perhaps not going to sound like that actual expensive instrument; might sound good enough, or be an improvement to add character to plain PU. For example, I have used a stock violin IR on my purely solid body electric fiddle (which has no natural acoustic sound to mic); it does add blend in some of that acoustic character. I've seen some folks do similar on solid body electric guitar, obvious still not the vintage D-28 IR used... but does gives it bit more acoustic sound.

Edited by - banjoak on 12/30/2024 16:51:22