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Brett - Posted - 10/07/2024: 08:46:58
When Gibson in Kalamazoo made Epiphone label banjos, all the tone ring models were supposedly flatheads. That’s what the print copy said. But, you know back then, you could maybe custom order, or there might be a late Friday afternoon special. Or Monday morning banjo built by Grumpy.
What are the odds a tenor EB-88 might’ve had 4 hole archtop from new, considering these American made scarce to find banjos maybe 8-9 years (at most)?
Not talking any of 1970 or so Epiphone.
The Old Timer - Posted - 10/07/2024: 09:34:30
I think it is VERY likely Gibson could have turned out an Epiphone arch top, whether custom or "unwittingly". Based on Gibson's history and manufacturing practices at that time.
After all, there's just about nothing that distinguishes a "Gibson" pot of that period from an "Epiphone" pot of that period. It's the resonator and neck that distinguish them. Take a complete pot from the shelf and fasten on an Epiphone neck and resonator from other shelves, and voila!
Could have been done "custom" or "unwittingly" I bet.
Old Hickory - Posted - 10/07/2024: 17:26:27
If the rim looks old enough to be original then I'd agree with DIck it's highly likely Gibson could have produced such a thing.
The rim is telling because an archtop rim is taller than a flathead rim. That's why so many cut pre-war archtop rims in "double converting" pre-war 4-string archtop banjos to 5-string flatheads.
The opposite conversion -- flathead to archtop -- takes more work. It requires adding a ring of wood to the top of the rim. Such a modification would be easy to spot.
I believe only Gibson made a 4-hole archtop ring. If the rim is original, then I'd believe the banjo was made that way. It's quite possible tenor players preferred archtop to flathead.
waystation - Posted - 10/07/2024: 19:03:16
Slightly off-topic, but Gibson in the 1920s also converted ball bearings to archtops by adding a ring of wood to the top of the ball bearing rim. It's unclear whether they filled in the ball bearing holes or just let the shim cover them.
I saw one banjo that got that factory conversion, a Granada that was owned by Herb Hooven. I could tell the shim was done at the factory because it still had a sliver of a gold Mastertone label, in a different spot than the label on the rest of the rim. Clearly they cut up unused and probably defective rims to make their BB-AT shims. Gibson didn't waste a thing!
mikehalloran - Posted - 10/08/2024: 15:15:55
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
When Gibson in Kalamazoo made Epiphone label banjos, all the tone ring models were supposedly flatheads. That’s what the print copy said. But, you know back then, you could maybe custom order, or there might be a late Friday afternoon special. Or Monday morning banjo built by Grumpy.
What are the odds a tenor EB-88 might’ve had 4 hole archtop from new, considering these American made scarce to find banjos maybe 8-9 years (at most)?
Not talking any of 1970 or so Epiphone.
Print copy is wrong.
Epiphone was the Rodney Dangerfield of the Gibson line as far as getting any respect. I have seen and owned too many Epis that didn't match what should have been printed specs and catalog descriptions including archtop rings in banjos. Lots of Gibson floorsweep instruments out there with Epiphone labels.
Brett - Posted - 10/08/2024: 15:40:14
thanks folks. I knew a guy once who claimed his Dad or Granddad (can’t recall now), had a factory archtop rb-100. Which isn’t supposed to exist either. I never saw it though.
I’ve owned a 63 or so Gibson acoustic with a second stamp on back of the peghead. And I’ve seen many acoustics with the big “2” between top 2 Klusons. S, if you’d knowingly let your mistakes get out the door, I’m sure mixing parts happened, especially if they ran short of this or that. Or, I guess possibly a “special” order with extra up charge.
Old Hickory - Posted - 10/08/2024: 17:16:13
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
thanks folks. I knew a guy once who claimed his Dad or Granddad (can’t recall now), had a factory archtop rb-100. Which isn’t supposed to exist either.
Well, an RB-100 wasn't supposed to have any cast tone ring. But Gibson made plenty of sub-Mastertones with smaller rod or maybe tube tone rings that sat at the inside edge of the rim, so they gave the head an arch-top appearance. That was mostly pre-war as far as I know, but I'm willing to believe Gibson did that with some number of RB-100s.
mikehalloran - Posted - 10/08/2024: 18:16:10
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
thanks folks. I knew a guy once who claimed his Dad or Granddad (can’t recall now), had a factory archtop rb-100. Which isn’t supposed to exist either.
Well, an RB-100 wasn't supposed to have any cast tone ring. But Gibson made plenty of sub-Mastertones with smaller rod or maybe tube tone rings that sat at the inside edge of the rim, so they gave the head an arch-top appearance — this was called the "raised head" in the catalogs. That was mostly pre-war as far as I know, but I'm willing to believe Gibson did that with some number of RB-100s.
Plenty of 100s (including the 170 openback and 175 longneck) from the '60s with the smaller ring near the inside of the pot to make it an archtop. These are very easy to convert to flat with an 11" brass hoop and a high crown head — and back again if you don't like the results.
A few months ago, Gryphon Strings had an Epiphone EB-44 Campus long neck with that exact set up. They also had an EB-188 Plantation with a flathead Mastertone ring.
Here's a scan of the banjo page from the 1966 Epi catalog where you can see a "raised head" archtop EB-44
Edited by - mikehalloran on 10/08/2024 18:26:28
kyleb - Posted - 10/09/2024: 05:52:36
one of the last time this was discussed here, it was argued that epiphones were only produced in kalamazoo for a very short time , or not at all. I cant find that thread. Does anyone have any definite knowledge or evidence of exactly when and what models were made in kalamazoo?
RB3 - Posted - 10/09/2024: 06:57:43
I never knew that they had models named "The Plantation" and "The Minstrel". I'm surprised they didn't have a gold-plated model named "The Massatone".
