Dean T - Posted - 09/28/2024:  11:08:43

I gave my drum dial to a friend to use, 4 1/2 years ago. Then forgot about it. Priding myself in knowing how to evenly tighten a head, and adjust according how my banjo sounded… I never missed it.



Yesterday, I went to jam with said friend and several others… and he gave me the drum dial back!



Timing was perfect, because I had just put a new head on one of my banjos, and despite my super human natural ability to perfectly tweak a banjo head, I just wasn't happy with it. 

 

last night I used my refound tool on my three Goodtime variants:

Banjo #1- 28 year old original Gumby Goodtime. All original. I thought it sounded great after my tweaking. The head measured very uneven between 81 and 84. I brought it up to an even 89, and holy smokes, I have a new banjo!!! 

 

Banjo #2- One year old cherry deco Goodtime. I thought it sounded great after my tweaking. The head measured very uneven between 85 and 87. I brought it up to an even 90, and holy smokes, I have a new banjo!!!

Banjo #3- 8 year old 12" pot Americana, with a brand new fiberskin head. I thought it sounded great after my head change and tweaking. The head measured very uneven, between 85 and 88. I brought it up to an even 89, and holy smokes it sounds much better! 

 

Lesson learned. My ears suck, but without a comparison, I didn't know. Also, the torque on the nuts does not equate to even head tension. I also think I was afraid to overtighten. As soon as I had a real measurement, the fear was gone. I'm not as good at tweaking my banjo as I thought, in fact I suck at it. Tools are a good thing, and I'm glad I got my drum dial back.

Edited by - Dean T on 09/28/2024 11:11:57

davidppp - Posted - 09/28/2024:  11:26:41

Consider new strings -- 'nuff said.

Foote - Posted - 09/28/2024:  11:46:23

I came to the same conclusion a couple of years ago. Like you, I had thought my ears after 40 years of banjo tinkering were doing great tuning heads. Like you, my dial told me all of my banjos did not have uniform pressure. And when they did they ALL came alive, tone and volume. You'll get a lot of disagreement here about them, but I think the drum dial is the most important tool I own for setting up my banjos.

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 09/28/2024:  12:29:00

Agreed. Although neither of my banjos has moved since initial setup.

Dean T - Posted - 09/28/2024:  12:29:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by davidppp

Consider new strings -- 'nuff said.

---

Two banjos got new strings two weeks ago, the third got new strings last week, with the new head and a new bridge. I had been using that drum dial for about 10 years prior, but never really realized how important it was, until I didn't think I needed it. 

steve davis - Posted - 09/28/2024:  15:47:15

When you find something that works for you stay with it.

Phil - MO - Posted - 09/28/2024:  18:54:01

Drum dial for:

Less time for head too "settle" in.

Less bursting of over tight heads.

Easy to go back to sound we liked.

Less pull up on 1 piece flange like on most pre wars.

No pull up like is on my '98 Gibson RB4 from being set too tight by previous owner.



But old timers my age don't like to admit we need help with our hearing aids and decreasing mechanical skills.

Edited by - Phil - MO on 09/28/2024 18:57:41

Bart Veerman - Posted - 09/28/2024:  21:25:35

You young know-it-alls, I bet you use one of them electrical string tuner thingies too 

the proper way

 

reubenstump - Posted - 09/29/2024:  12:04:23

Well, I guess I should stick a crowbar in my wallet and buy one, cuz I know darn well I don't have a "super human natural ability to perfectly tweak a banjo head", which apparently may not be sufficient anyway.



Is the eponymous brand the one to buy, or are there other recommendations?



I get tired of fiddling with batteries so I'd prefer the analog version if it works well, but I'd buy the digital version if it's better.



Thanks.

Edited by - reubenstump on 09/29/2024 12:11:45

Dean T - Posted - 09/29/2024:  13:03:12

This is the one I have. I had to Google it to make sure it was still around. I bought mine about 15 years ago, at recommendations from folks here. I was using it extensively on my heavy tone ring banjo, when I was playing out a lot, and that banjo was finicky, especially after a day or two out in the sun, and it liked to change with the seasons. I didn't think it was as important with my lightweight open backs, but now I know different. 

Edited by - Dean T on 09/29/2024 13:14:05

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/29/2024:  13:33:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by reubenstump

Is the eponymous brand the one to buy, or are there other recommendations?

---

I believe so. There's at least one competitor, but it costs more.

I also believe there's a digital version of DrumDial these days. I'm fine with the original analog dial indicator version.

Phil - MO - Posted - 09/29/2024:  15:01:53

Analog is fine.
I've heard of people buying a reg. machinist dial indiator and attaching to a hockey puck?

Since all you are doing is measuring how far the spring on the indicator is pushing down the head the spring would be important to match reading on dial indicator.

For instance when zeroing drum dial to 0 on a glass plate you are actually setting to 100 instead of 0 and pushing down. A reading of 91 on indicator is actually pushing down -9 marks and will show as 89.

I'm sure a machinist that uses indicators every day could explain better.

Phil

banjoT1 - Posted - 09/29/2024:  17:04:10

Drum Dials - hmmmmmm ?

(I'm repeating in a different way what I posted elsewhere some time ago but anyway...)

There's the Yin and Yang about those Drum Dials.

First, the Yang (+): ...I don't own one, don't want one, highly overrated, too expensive, too trusted and believed necessary. BUT, making such things creates employment and adds to one's national Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in spite that the thing's components likely are sourced from off-shore (imported with a 'non-favored nation' tariff)

Second, the Yin:
Although, in my thinking, such a thing as the Drum Dial, measures head tension by some magical 'units', this Drum Dial thing really only helps the user to 'rough in' one's head tension within a range of something somewhere on the head. But, truth be known, from the 'rough in' point the finer tweaking adjustments and hearing assessments are necessary to release the optimal sound that a specific banjo is 'capable' of producing. And, to be under the impression, or to trust that a Drum Dial, or other elixer, will do the head tension trick, then such dependance on this gizmo will stunt or altogether prevent one from discovering the joy, critical hearing, and often very minor adjustments that can profoundly affect one's banjo in good ways. In short, immersing in the set-up process can reap unanticipated benefits if willing to experiment way past the Drum Dial doodad.

So, whether one 'roughs-in' head tension by quarters, dimes or I.O.U's, or other 'rule-of-thumb' metric, in my experience there's nothing better than your critical hearing, courage, and patience to learn the art of set-ups.

banjoman56 - Posted - 09/29/2024:  17:50:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

Drum Dials - hmmmmmm ?



(I'm repeating in a different way what I posted elsewhere some time ago but anyway...)



There's the Yin and Yang about those Drum Dials.



First, the Yang (+): ...I don't own one, don't want one, highly overrated, too expensive, too trusted and believed necessary. BUT, making such things creates employment and adds to one's national Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in spite that the thing's components likely are sourced from off-shore (imported with a 'non-favored nation' tariff)



Second, the Yin:

Although, in my thinking, such a thing as the Drum Dial, measures head tension by some magical 'units', this Drum Dial thing really only helps the user to 'rough in' one's head tension within a range of something somewhere on the head. But, truth be known, from the 'rough in' point the finer tweaking adjustments and hearing assessments are necessary to release the optimal sound that a specific banjo is 'capable' of producing. And, to be under the impression, or to trust that a Drum Dial, or other elixer, will do the head tension trick, then such dependance on this gizmo will stunt or altogether prevent one from discovering the joy, critical hearing, and often very minor adjustments that can profoundly affect one's banjo in good ways. In short, immersing in the set-up process can reap unanticipated benefits if willing to experiment way past the Drum Dial doodad.



So, whether one 'roughs-in' head tension by quarters, dimes or I.O.U's, or other 'rule-of-thumb' metric, in my experience there's nothing better than your critical hearing, courage, and patience to learn the art of set-ups.

---

I don't think all people have the ear to set up a banjo without something to aid in the set-up. I had a friend that tuned piano's by ear and they sounded great, (if you like piano music). If I tuned your piano by ear, you would be sueing me because your cats ran away from home while you were playing the piano.

banjoT1 - Posted - 09/29/2024:  20:52:10

yes, I started out on the 'set-up is art' journey with aids - 25ish years ago but only realized GOOD set-ups require persistence and curiosity. Not necessarily a good business model but I don't really keep track of my time. (House paid off.) Rather, to help other folks discover what's hidden inside and a joy to behold.



This Drum Dial thread may be drifting and if so, my apologies to the OP - not my intention to hack but may be an apt time ??



Although the veterans and old timers have their methods - likely without using dial indicators and such - for the serious first time set up triers here are some thoughts and tips from a forever student:

1. be curious and courageous. A banjo is only made of parts, nuts and bolts. A few things are breakable but that's the cost of doing business - and learning. And, buckle up because the learning path may take you a few years and many banjos to start.



2. there are different 'magnitudes' or degrees of set-up's from scratch. There could be a complete rebuild set-up or adjustments to an existing set-up or a comprehensive 'optimal' set-up. A 'commodity' run-of-the-mill set-up might take 1/2 hour whereas an optimal set-up would span say, a week of periodic checks - primarily hearing checks, but including measurements with feeler gauges and precision 6" rule.



3. somehow acquire either a pure tone generator or frequency analyzer. WHAT ?? WTF ?? Forget about a Drum Dial thingy. You'll find a pure tone generator at your local Goodwill or Value Village or whatever. $20 to $40 will get you a decent and working garage band keyboard. Bingo.



4. try to learn what tap tuning is all about. Learning this skill will work hand-in-glove by verifying what you're hearing, or think you're hearing, by comparing to the constant of a pure tone.



5. So what ? Now with notepad and pen, you can draw 2 graphs - one for head acoustics and the other graph as a fretboard graph. The graphs will first, allow you to establish base line measurements. The results or changes of any and all adjustments you make can be plotted but you'll know where you started and what caused what. If you dislike what you hear you can return, or always replicate or repeat any preferred series of previous adjustments.



6. 1 through 5 above is a start. You will discover in particular how and to what degree a, seemingly , small or minor adjustment affects the banjo Gestalt. (Gestalt ? .....look it up.) You'll also find that dial gauges, coin thicknesses, faerie wings, moon dust and other ways to adjust head tension help you insofar as giving you a 'roughed in' starting point.



Well, too many details to carry on with this but adequate to agitate a few folks. Not rocket science but a matter of hear and touch. PM me for more info either +/-.

Edited by - banjoT1 on 09/29/2024 20:55:19

Dean T - Posted - 09/29/2024:  23:12:09

For the first 5 years of my banjo journey, I screwed around and wasted many many many hours with tap tuning, torque wrenching, and coins. And that included the countless threads on the subjects here. It was also here that lead me to purchase the drum dial. With that drum dial in hand, and about ten minutes time, my banjo sounded better than ever. Then for many years, my banjos always sounded their best. Knowing now, what I didn’t know then, I should have bought the drum dial with my first banjo. When my drum dial didn’t come home 4 1/2 years ago, I thought my experience and expertise and finely tuned ears didn’t need it any longer. In truth, I found just the opposite. My persistence and curiosity were barely good enough to to rough-in my banjo’s sound, and my nievity even had me thinking I had done a good job. Until I got my drum dial back, and found out otherwise. Humbling, educating, and a nice little eye opener for me. Now I can nail my set up in a few minutes, and get to playing on a great sounding banjo, instead of f***ing around tweaking when I could be playing.

Edited by - Dean T on 09/29/2024 23:13:20

reubenstump - Posted - 09/30/2024:  10:35:56

Damn the torpedos!

Sydney or the bush!

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I ordered one. If you divide the price of a drum dial by the price of a good banjo, you get a single digit percentage, so it seems like a relatively inexpensive thing on which to take a flyer.

Dean T - Posted - 09/30/2024:  11:34:30

We are of course, awaiting a full report

banjoT1 - Posted - 09/30/2024:  17:27:56

So, misters Lorenzo the Magnificent and Dean T. (and the like), upon re-reading your posts I have come to lean on your side. In fact, I think there should be a law that every new banjo should be sold with additional standard equipment - sorta like when buying a car - you also get a jack and spare tire. So, every new banjo should come with extra Drum Dial, Banjo Bolster, bridge mute, brass knuckles, and puppy thumbs.

reubenstump - Posted - 10/01/2024:  10:03:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

So, misters Lorenzo the Magnificent and Dean T. (and the like), upon re-reading your posts I have come to lean on your side. In fact, I think there should be a law that every new banjo should be sold with additional standard equipment - sorta like when buying a car - you also get a jack and spare tire. So, every new banjo should come with extra Drum Dial, Banjo Bolster, bridge mute, brass knuckles, and puppy thumbs.

---

Snark noted.

Helix - Posted - 10/02/2024:  17:02:58

Can you still walk across the Little Arkie this year? Back in the USS, back in the USS, Back in the USSA.

Dean T - Posted - 10/02/2024:  18:27:46

Hey Helix! Little Arkie is flowing pretty good this year… you could try, but you better have your water wing on!



One of the things I’ve learned after a lifetime of music, and more than 20 years of banjo… is that folks who are blessed with the gift of music, don’t have a clue what its like not to have it. I’ll never forget when electric tuners came out with the little red and green lights. I never had to ask someone to tune my guitar with a piano or keyboard or tuning flute, again. I was told as a youngster that the more I played, the more my ear would mature. Well, that was a lifetime ago, and I’m still playing and still waiting. To this day, I could torque, tap, scrape, thump, flick, hit with pencil eraser, a banjo head while plucking a certain note for hours… and courageously get nowhere. That’s why I’m glad that some folks who probably faced the same challenges, invented tools to overcome the lack of natural abilities, so that we all have the same chance to enjoy making music. Long live electric tuners and drum dials. And to the folks who like to make jokes about it, if it makes you feel better, I guess that’s ok too. After all, music is all about feeling.

Edited by - Dean T on 10/02/2024 18:31:41

Helix - Posted - 10/08/2024:  17:36:53

My drum dial arrived today!!

Buddur - Posted - 10/10/2024:  09:13:32

Last re-fret when I had the banjo apart I had time to check and adjust head tension all around. When I changed strings last week I checked head tension and fortunately it hasn't changed one bit. This indicating the head has settled in as much as it can.

But yeah, a new head you need to check regularly and adjust accordingly and a drum dial makes this process easy with confident results.

wileypickett - Posted - 10/10/2024:  13:07:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by reubenstump

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

So, misters Lorenzo the Magnificent and Dean T. (and the like), upon re-reading your posts I have come to lean on your side. In fact, I think there should be a law that every new banjo should be sold with additional standard equipment - sorta like when buying a car - you also get a jack and spare tire. So, every new banjo should come with extra Drum Dial, Banjo Bolster, bridge mute, brass knuckles, and puppy thumbs.

---

Snark noted.

---

Yeah, and a Snark!

Dale Diehl - Posted - 10/20/2024:  06:00:46

This has been deep. I don't own a drum dial. The comment about dial indicators intrigued me, since I was a mechanic. I haven't bought a drum dial for various reasons: I cheap, I am trying not to accumulate more stuff, where would I keep it, etc.
This got me thinking. Having learned the skills of tuning a carbureted engine, and I
was pretty good at it, I will say there is something of an art to it as well as science. I also learned that as I went through my adjustment/tuning, I learned that the process was also diagnostic in nature. That is, how various adjustments affected the performance could clue me into a problem. For instance, if one side of the carburetor required a much different setting there could be another problem, possible vacuum leak or dirty passage in the idle circuit.
All this brings me to another truth. My skills learned in my vocation changed. Eventually there were no more carburetors. All things change. I have lots of tools in my tool box for obsolete cars and the jobs required to keep them running.

But the banjo is timeless.

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 10/22/2024:  06:15:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart Veerman

You young know-it-alls, I bet you use one of them electrical string tuner thingies too 

---

Love that picture Bart..

;0)

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 10/22/2024:  06:22:48

I find that i have the most consistant head tension..

If i do not use the hooks n nuts....... :0/

Edited by - STUD figmo Al on 10/22/2024 06:23:14

steve davis - Posted - 10/22/2024:  08:09:30

6" ruler with dime.
2" mark at bridge.

 

writerrad - Posted - 11/21/2024:  18:14:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

When you find something that works for you stay with it.

---

that should be tatooed in reverse on my forehead so I see that sentence every time I look in a mirror.

Ronfire - Posted - 11/22/2024:  07:38:47

I lucked out and found a drum dial on Marketplace for $20. After I set the the head up with a 10" strait edge and a quarter I tried the dial. I found it set at 91,92 over the whole head. I backed the tight side about a 1/4 turn but it did not ease it up. This Banjo is less than a year old so I think it will settle in a bit more.

Old Hickory - Posted - 11/22/2024:  09:01:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

Drum Dial, measures head tension by some magical 'units'

---

I don't believe this is correct. The numbers on the dial don't represent any units of measure I'm aware of. It's my understanding the numbers on DrumDial are an index of deflection relative to zero -- the calibration setting of a DrumDial on a rigid surface such as glass. When the DrumDial is put on anything else, it reports that surface's resistance to (or deflection under) the spring-loaded pin in the base.  So as the head gets tighter, it deflects under the pin less, and the reading goes higher.

I could be wrong.

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

this Drum Dial thing really only helps the user to 'rough in' one's head tension within a range of something somewhere on the head. But, truth be known, from the 'rough in' point the finer tweaking adjustments and hearing assessments are necessary to release the optimal sound that a specific banjo is 'capable' of producing. 

---

Not so. And in some ways this in reverse of actual.

Sure, a DrumDial can be used to rough in a head tightness that still needs to be tweaked to what your ear likes (and then checked and fine-tuned with DrumDial).

But you can start without DrumDial and rough in a head as you always do (by sound, look, or feel) THEN use the DrumDial to tweak that.  You do this by measuring the head all around to discover what reading the DrumDial gives you. Since you're not likely to have tightened the head the same everywhere, you can then use the DrumDial to help you adjust the head to be equally tight everywhere. Maybe you choose the most common number among the different ones you achieved. If you don't like the sound of the number you've tightened to, then tighten or loosen to an adjacent number or half-number. But the same everywhere.

When you have the sound you like, you'll have something you never had before: an accurate and repeatable measure of that tightness. If the banjo later on starts sounding off, you can use the DrumDial to see if it's lost tension anywhere. It probably has. And the next time you change a head, you can use the DrumDial to go right to the reading that produces the sound you like.

This last point is especially important. Note that I haven't mentioned any specific number. That's because the purpose of DrumDial is not to help you tighten your head to a setting others like. Its purpose is to put an objective number to the tightness you like.

nechville - Posted - 11/22/2024:  11:58:56

I echo the praise for the drum dial, but for a slightly different reason. You are tightening the entire circumference of a Nechville’s head evenly with every turn of the wrenches. So if I get uneven readings on a Nechville Heli-Mount banjo I know that the head was bad to start with. I use bad heads for autographs. Even head tensioning makes up maybe 80% of difference between a good banjo and a superb banjo. I shoot for 91.5 all around the perimeter. I also stock and sell Drum Dials and would love to help with your next banjo. My number for call or text is 612-275-6602.

gcpicken - Posted - 11/23/2024:  14:53:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by nechville

So if I get uneven readings on a Nechville Heli-Mount banjo I know that the head was bad to start with.

---

Notwithstanding your advertising claim that "the Heli-Mount system produces even tension throughout the banjo head", don't the drum dial readings on your Heli-Mount system always fall off starting about 2/3's of the way down towards the tailpiece?

Edited by - gcpicken on 11/23/2024 14:58:38

gcpicken - Posted - 11/24/2024:  10:46:42

Also, since we are talking about drum dials, you may want to take a look at the "Nashville Pocket Dial". Same principles, but I find it easier to use.
nashvillebanjos.com/pocket-dial/

RB3 - Posted - 11/25/2024:  06:20:33

Does anyone here know if the Drum Dial and the Nashville Banjo Co. Pocket-Dial are functionally congruent? If you take a reading with the Drum Dial, will you get the same reading with the Pocket-Dial?

Paul Roberts - Posted - 11/25/2024:  07:55:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

So, misters Lorenzo the Magnificent and Dean T. (and the like), upon re-reading your posts I have come to lean on your side. In fact, I think there should be a law that every new banjo should be sold with additional standard equipment - sorta like when buying a car - you also get a jack and spare tire. So, every new banjo should come with extra Drum Dial, Banjo Bolster, bridge mute, brass knuckles, and puppy thumbs.

Interesting list, especially including the brass knuckles. I suppose those would be included in ward off any banjo jokes that might come one's way. For me, the drum dial could be optional. The Banjo Bolster however, is an absolute essential. I own ten of them and couldn't contemplate life without them. 

---

Realbluegrassfan - Posted - 11/25/2024:  08:44:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bart Veerman

You young know-it-alls, I bet you use one of them electrical string tuner thingies too 

---

Great idea Bart......... slide banjo.  

Realbluegrassfan - Posted - 11/25/2024:  08:52:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by reubenstump

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoT1

So, misters Lorenzo the Magnificent and Dean T. (and the like), upon re-reading your posts I have come to lean on your side. In fact, I think there should be a law that every new banjo should be sold with additional standard equipment - sorta like when buying a car - you also get a jack and spare tire. So, every new banjo should come with extra Drum Dial, Banjo Bolster, bridge mute, brass knuckles, and puppy thumbs.

---

Snark noted.

So Lo, you are now using a Snark as well to tune?

---

gcpicken - Posted - 11/25/2024:  10:03:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB3

Does anyone here know if the Drum Dial and the Nashville Banjo Co. Pocket-Dial are functionally congruent? If you take a reading with the Drum Dial, will you get the same reading with the Pocket-Dial?

---

I have both. Very close.

Rowland - Posted - 11/26/2024:  11:18:12

4 1/2 years huh ?
Can I borrow it ?