chuckv97 - Posted - 08/17/2024:  21:31:47

Starts at 28:58
youtu.be/3O7bFAdkQL8?si=BRCjIu4BQI-o7y4i

The Old Timer - Posted - 08/18/2024:  07:43:02

Lester and Curly are playing E majors, as usual.

corcoran - Posted - 08/18/2024:  08:19:47

It's worth noting that they hold the Em chord for 3 measures before reverting to a one-measure G chord. Many other people play 2 measures of Em and then 2 measures of G -- inconsistent with the Gospel according to Earl.

rcc56 - Posted - 08/18/2024:  17:07:57

Lester didn't like minor chords. At all.

He always played E major on FMB.

In all of the many hours of footage I've seen of him, I only saw him use a minor chord once, and that was late in his career.



Further on in the video, we're treated to footage of Maybelle Carter performing Wildwood Flower and Liberty. Lest we forget, Maybelle is the Rosetta Stone of both country lead guitar and the nearly lost art of melodic autoharp.

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/18/2024 17:19:45

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/18/2024:  17:28:00

Hmmm, you’ve got me thinking now, Bob - what other Flatt & Scruggs song had a minor chord in it ? Down the Road? ,,,maybe Cumberland Gap?

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/18/2024 17:28:25

The Old Timer - Posted - 08/18/2024:  18:30:34

On Down the Road Lester just lifted his middle finger off the 3rd fret 6th string, making a more or less single E note. He didn't change the position of his other fingers which were hanging onto G.

In Cumberland Gap Lester played the 2nd fret 4th string to make an E note. He didn't strike the other 5 strings while hitting that E note.

The Old Timer - Posted - 08/18/2024:  18:32:33

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Originally posted by The Old Timer

On Down the Road Lester just lifted his middle finger off the 3rd fret 6th string, making a more or less single E note. He didn't change the position of his other fingers which were hanging onto G.



In Cumberland Gap Lester played the 2nd fret 4th string with his index finger to make an E note. He didn't strike the other 5 strings while hitting that E note.

Lester famously played TWO minor chords in the same song on the 1960s single of "Hear the Whistle Blow A Hundred Miles"; and E minor and A minor.  He probably didn't enjoy it.

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/18/2024:  19:23:50

This album musta been torture for old Lester,,, mercy!

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/18/2024 19:26:13

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/18/2024:  19:52:53

From Thomas Goldsmith’s book:

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/18/2024 19:53:21

Old Hickory - Posted - 08/18/2024:  20:00:51

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Originally posted by chuckv97

This album musta been torture for old Lester,,, mercy!

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Wasn't this a contributor to the break-up?

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/18/2024:  20:12:33

Methinks yes,,, wasn’t it their producer Bob Johnston who wanted them to go “modern”?

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/18/2024 20:14:49

The Old Timer - Posted - 08/19/2024:  07:02:03

F&S signed a VERY LUCRATIVE deal with Columbia to record what Columbia wanted! Louise negotiated that. For HUGE money. Not the cause of the break up.

If you read the discography on Nashville Airplane you'll see Lester probably didn't do much guitar playing, in major or minor, on that mess. They had a ton of guitar players in the studio.

If you think Nashville Airplane was an abomination, check out their final LP, recorded after the break up, as required by their Columbia contract. It was called "Final Fling - One Last Time - Just for Kicks". Ugh.

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/19/2024:  13:10:50

The album cover says it all,, Lester looking disgruntled in the background and Earl smiling about his & Louise’s bank account….lol.

But this Dylan song could be okay , imho, done with pure bluegrass instruments.

youtu.be/JfMkxq6w2dU?si=qn09HJA5B__O6vLe

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/19/2024 13:18:27

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 08/19/2024:  14:20:03

I thought an E #9 might be a nice compromise but I guess I’m wrong about that?

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/19/2024:  15:13:56

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

I thought an E #9 might be a nice compromise but I guess I’m wrong about that?

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Methinks Lester couldn't cotton to an E flatt 3rd 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/19/2024 15:15:17

steve davis - Posted - 08/20/2024:  09:37:05

I read an interview with Earl in Frets magazine I believe where he said he wanted the E major in the back-up.

phb - Posted - 08/21/2024:  00:46:26

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Originally posted by corcoran

It's worth noting that they hold the Em chord for 3 measures before reverting to a one-measure G chord. Many other people play 2 measures of Em and then 2 measures of G -- inconsistent with the Gospel according to Earl.

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I have to say that I have always wondered where the 2 measures Em / 2 measures G variation comes from. All recordings of FMB I have heard are absolutely consistent in playing 3 measures of Em and 1 measure of G that (although I am usually not a bluegrass police volunteer) that the 2/2 variation does indeed seem wrong to me.

corcoran - Posted - 08/21/2024:  05:32:23

To me, the oddest track on "Nashville Airplane" is Rainy Day Woman #12 and 35, with its chorus "Everybody must get stoned." It's one thing when Bob Dylan sings it, but another altogether when Lester Flatt sings it. Whatever else he might have been, Lester definitely was not a hipster or a hippie.



And I recognize that this has nothing to do with the E chord on FMB!

Edited by - corcoran on 08/21/2024 05:41:34

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 08/21/2024:  06:33:14

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by corcoran

It's worth noting that they hold the Em chord for 3 measures before reverting to a one-measure G chord. Many other people play 2 measures of Em and then 2 measures of G -- inconsistent with the Gospel according to Earl.

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I have to say that I have always wondered where the 2 measures Em / 2 measures G variation comes from. All recordings of FMB I have heard are absolutely consistent in playing 3 measures of Em and 1 measure of G that (although I am usually not a bluegrass police volunteer) that the 2/2 variation does indeed seem wrong to me.

 

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I'd speculate that it may have two sources: 1) analogy with other songs, like  "You Are My Sunshine" or "Lonesome Road Blues", that have similar progressions, with lines that return to the I chord after starting with two measures of some other chord; and 2) an overly narrow understanding of the tag licks in measures 7 and 11, which some people may have assumed implies an underlying G chord. Or maybe 3) they got the chords from the original Scruggs book, which shows two bars of Em and two bars of G. (Think of all those people who play "Shuckin' The Corn" with three bars of C followed by one bar of G instead of the two and two that are clearly audible on the recording--largely, I suspect because that's how it's erroneously indicated in the Scruggs book.)



The 3/1-vs.-2/2 situation isn't entirely cut and dried on the original "FMB" recording, though. I think I'm hearing eight places where the bass plays two and two, including the very first two times that change comes around, which may explain why it's indicated that way in the Scruggs book.



BTW, part of what makes the original recording so ominously effective, IMHO, is the fact that the bass plays the root of the E chord repeatedly, rather than alternating I-V-I-V.

phb - Posted - 08/21/2024:  07:55:45

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

The 3/1-vs.-2/2 situation isn't entirely cut and dried on the original "FMB" recording, though. I think I'm hearing eight places where the bass plays two and two, including the very first two times that change comes around, which may explain why it's indicated that way in the Scruggs book.

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Yes, you are right! I didn't pay enough attention, it's right there in the original recording during the 1st and 3rd banjo breaks (logically dividing the recording into 3 banjo breaks followed by 2 fiddle breaks, 4 banjo breaks, 2 fiddle and the final 2 banjo breaks). I have only found these four places where it is 2/2, though.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 08/21/2024:  09:45:17

quote:

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Originally posted by phb

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

The 3/1-vs.-2/2 situation isn't entirely cut and dried on the original "FMB" recording, though. I think I'm hearing eight places where the bass plays two and two, including the very first two times that change comes around, which may explain why it's indicated that way in the Scruggs book.

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Yes, you are right! I didn't pay enough attention, it's right there in the original recording during the 1st and 3rd banjo breaks (logically dividing the recording into 3 banjo breaks followed by 2 fiddle breaks, 4 banjo breaks, 2 fiddle and the final 2 banjo breaks). I have only found these four places where it is 2/2, though.

 

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I'm not 100% about the later ones. It sounds in some places like Lester is holding the E longer while Howard Watts returns to the G earlier. But the sound is kind of murky.

The Old Timer - Posted - 08/21/2024:  19:38:05

Ira I love your word "ominously" concerning that driving repeating E note by the bass player!!!!! All kinds of words have gone through my head about that bass riff, but I think "ominous" is the best yet.

All right here's a banjo picking question about FMB: who hears Earl play the opening lick differently over the years? D-D followed by an open 2nd string B? D-D B D-D B D-D (I'm leaving out some notes within the roll pattern -- the key is the open B being used, or not). Seems like in later performances, the open B was eliminated for all D notes between the 2nd string 3rd fret plus the open 1st string. And finally who enjoys (or doesn't) the two brief times Earl salutes "Columbia the Ge of the Ocean"? Personally I love that. And Earl confirmed that's the song he got that phrase from.

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/21/2024:  21:17:48

I like that excerpt from “Columbia….” ,, I play it myself as a foil for the rest of the tune- I had no idea where he got that back in 1965 or so when I first heard the tune  youtu.be/ML4mkDUuhI4?si=RhyahPvj6ijI12VG  ..... & I don’t like the D held on the 2nd,, I like the B note.

Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/21/2024 21:20:40

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 08/22/2024:  05:51:07

I don't think I knew that was a quote from "Columbia..." until someone pointed it out to me at one of the Maryland Banjo Academy sessions years ago. That bit of knowledge made sense of the single A note that starts the second bar of that variation; it puzzled me mightily up to that point.

The only time I remember hearing "Columbia..." when I was a kid in the 1960s was in Buggs Bunny cartoons. Since they were made back in the 1940s, I guess the song was popular back then--when Earl was a young man--but had faded from use by the time I was sentient.