Bill Rogers - Posted - 06/27/2024:  18:42:53

Not a problem, really.

youtube.com/watch?v=3YqaRyYWjMc

mrphysics55 - Posted - 06/27/2024:  20:25:56

Excellent!

Culloden - Posted - 06/27/2024:  20:36:43

The real old timers didn't have scoops. Most of them didn't have long fingernails either.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 06/28/2024:  04:01:14

I have a Blue Ribbon tenor. Great banjo. Hmmm. My 3 "most played" are Bacons.

Mmmmm. Bacon.

While I learned to play clawhammer scoopless, I prefer my scoops.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/28/2024:  06:27:06

Question, outside of the very few "Round Peak" style developers, did any other "old timers" regularly play over the fingerboard?

"Old timers" is extremely vague so, perhaps, we could restrict this to players that predate WW2 or perhaps even 1930?

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 06/28/2024:  06:40:43

I play each banjo where it speaks to me as for as tone. Some are over the head and others up the neck. A scoop can help, but the frets are nice for us who don't adhere to boundaries well and like that high end pop a good banjo has. By good banjo I mean something with tone, volume, and playbility. Names are well, names. Banjos, like us, are individuals.

stanley_ - Posted - 06/28/2024:  07:34:47

I don't have any trouble striking or drop thumbing over the fingerboard of my non-scooped banjos now that I've had a good amount of practice with a scoop. However, I still haven't been able to play for long periods over the fretboard on my non-scooped banjos because the frets start hurting my thumb on 5th string. I can't figure out a way to "aim" my thumb where it doesn't clip the fret edges. (I think my 5th string height/action may be comparatively low on some of my banjos, though.)

Dan Gellert - Posted - 06/28/2024:  07:39:09

An awful lot of what most folks now call clawhammer banjo (including calling it clawhammer) is players who think they're emulating Kyle and Fred, but aren't. Very few have any clear idea of how and why they played and set up their banjos the way they did.

stanley_ - Posted - 06/28/2024:  07:54:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

An awful lot of what most folks now call clawhammer banjo (including calling it clawhammer) is players who think they're emulating Kyle and Fred, but aren't. Very few have any clear idea of how and why they played and set up their banjos the way they did.

---

Oh, speaking of Kyle Creed, that reminded me of a video of him playing over the fretboard without a scoop. I definitely want to study him further in the coming months.

youtube.com/watch?v=nIMoA2yqUZ...etopMusic

jsinjin - Posted - 06/29/2024:  08:48:47

My first and only banjo has a scoop and I didn’t know why (I’m a beginner). I do practice a lot and can hear the difference between places from the bridge all the way to the scoop. I went to a local higher end instrument store recently and tried a deering resonator that did not have a scoop and I did find that my thumb impacted the edge of the frets on the fifth string if I played up onto the neck. I didn’t find a problem (for a beginner) that was noticeable with the “action” with or without the scoop between the two instruments. It seems like the real determining factor would be the setup of the bridge, positioning of the bridge then the specific characteristics of the neck and fretboard height. But like most things with music or sports gear, I suspect it would take a master to feel the difference between one or another style adapted to his or her specific playing abilities and sound preference. (Introductory golf clubs vs whatever the winner of the masters plays with when wielded by a beginner as an example)


So it probably doesn’t matter as long as it’s not inhibiting the actual playing or irritating the thumb or fingers.

Eulalie - Posted - 06/29/2024:  09:05:02

Although I used to play banjo quite a bit and appreciated the tone from right hand over the fingerboard, I was out of the banjo game for several years, and when I wasn't paying attention this scoop thing happened. I consider scooping the fingerboard as unnecessary on newer banjos and an absolute desecration of historical artifacts on older banjos. As I was in the market for a banjo recently, I rejected out of hand any banjo with part of the fingerboard missing. I need those notes sometimes.

blazo - Posted - 06/29/2024:  09:42:17

A bridge with a raised 5th negates the need for a scoop - for those who don't want to put in the time to play scoopless over the neck.

Helix - Posted - 06/30/2024:  13:15:56

It seems logical to extend the “x

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 06/30/2024:  21:00:01

Back in the old days, all banjos had natural heads.
Anybody who's got one with a natural head now, knows that they react to temperature and humidity wildly.
Aside from trying to 'dry it out', the only other option is to find a happy medium where a humidity-sunken head still has a playable action.
The other side of that coin leaves you with an action that's rather high when it's dry.
Scoops would have been moot anyway.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 06/30/2024:  21:41:30

Some turn of the century banjos had the last couple of frets left off of the fingerboard, and some even had a metal overlay in this area.  It was a  production feature, not a modification.

csacwp - Posted - 07/01/2024:  03:23:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Some turn of the century banjos had the last couple of frets left off of the fingerboard, and some even had a metal overlay in this area.  It was a  production feature, not a modification.

---

What you're describing were responses to intonation issues caused by gut strings, not means for playing clawhammer / stroke style over the neck. 

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/01/2024:  13:32:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Some turn of the century banjos had the last couple of frets left off of the fingerboard, and some even had a metal overlay in this area.  It was a  production feature, not a modification.

---

What you're describing were responses to intonation issues caused by gut strings, not means for playing clawhammer / stroke style over the neck. 

---

I know that the left off frets were not for playing over the neck, but educate me- how was that a response to intonation issues?

csacwp - Posted - 07/01/2024:  13:55:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

quote:

---

Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

---

Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

Some turn of the century banjos had the last couple of frets left off of the fingerboard, and some even had a metal overlay in this area.  It was a  production feature, not a modification.

---

What you're describing were responses to intonation issues caused by gut strings, not means for playing clawhammer / stroke style over the neck. 

---

I know that the left off frets were not for playing over the neck, but educate me- how was that a response to intonation issues?

---

In some cases, the frets were left off simply to prevent players from complaining about intonation issues up the neck caused by untrue gut strings. In other cases, the area was left fretless to allow the player to "fret" the notes as needed to compensate for intonation issues. As strings got better, these compromises disappeared.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/01/2024:  15:06:44

I had no idea about that.  Thanks.

AndrewD - Posted - 07/01/2024:  15:21:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

Back in the old days, all banjos had natural heads.

Anybody who's got one with a natural head now, knows that they react to temperature and humidity wildly.

Aside from trying to 'dry it out', the only other option is to find a happy medium where a humidity-sunken head still has a playable action.

The other side of that coin leaves you with an action that's rather high when it's dry.

Scoops would have been moot anyway.

---

'Wildly' is a bit of an overstatement. A good quality hide head remains stable for ever unless you dunk it in a river. I have 100 and 130 year old banjos with their original heads that I've never had to touch and where the head is tight and the skin around the bridge is completely flat. I think this myth around the instability of hide skins is a product of Remo's PR department. And I live in London. Not renowned for its equable climate.

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 07/01/2024:  15:49:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

Back in the old days, all banjos had natural heads.

Anybody who's got one with a natural head now, knows that they react to temperature and humidity wildly.

Aside from trying to 'dry it out', the only other option is to find a happy medium where a humidity-sunken head still has a playable action.

The other side of that coin leaves you with an action that's rather high when it's dry.

Scoops would have been moot anyway.

---

'Wildly' is a bit of an overstatement. A good quality hide head remains stable for ever unless you dunk it in a river. I have 100 and 130 year old banjos with their original heads that I've never had to touch and where the head is tight and the skin around the bridge is completely flat. I think this myth around the instability of hide skins is a product of Remo's PR department. And I live in London. Not renowned for its equable climate.

---

I didn't say they lose stability. Just that they react wildly.

Maybe the climate there is more equable than you think?

This isn't a myth fabricated by Remo, I have several drums (not banjos) with natural skins as well.

In the western hemisphere, they all do it.

The trick to making them last 100+ years is to not try to tighten them. 

Countless heads have been over stretched and broken because someone was trying to compensate for the weather. They tighten the head, the humidity drops, then POP!

For whatever reason, you haven't done that over the last 130 years. Kudos

Helix - Posted - 07/03/2024:  06:06:00

It seems logical to extend the “X" and "Y" positions to include "Z" out over the frets.

I play with picks all the time except early morning, then I warm up my hands without picks using both up and down stroke.

I need all the frets available. I get the sound I want with lots of variables.

I think we need not restrict discussion, rather we need to open it up more. It matters to me not what and how they played in the past, but that they DID play fresh with the soil, really connected.

I agree with keeping a skin head tight and away from water sources.
How many spunovers have we seen with distress. Wetter climates saw us EVOLVE, the music doesn't want to stay in one place. Like gourds and the sound they make.
Nobody has come forward to say they have bred drum head goats, (R) with good fodder and friendly care, organically nurtured for the slaughter.

U. S. Navy stamp

 

BlueMountain - Posted - 07/04/2024:  05:15:49

I have three banjos with scoops, nine without, and one (a Nechville) with a 45 degree bevel under the fifth string where a scoop would be. My ears like the timbre of a banjo played at the top of the head or over the end of the neck, scooped or not. It just pleases me. Playing close to the bridge is more piercing and often necessary, but it hurts my ears and leads to annoying jibes about banjos.

TucsonBill - Posted - 07/04/2024:  09:47:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewD

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

Back in the old days, all banjos had natural heads.

Anybody who's got one with a natural head now, knows that they react to temperature and humidity wildly.

Aside from trying to 'dry it out', the only other option is to find a happy medium where a humidity-sunken head still has a playable action.

The other side of that coin leaves you with an action that's rather high when it's dry.

Scoops would have been moot anyway.

---

'Wildly' is a bit of an overstatement. A good quality hide head remains stable for ever unless you dunk it in a river. I have 100 and 130 year old banjos with their original heads that I've never had to touch and where the head is tight and the skin around the bridge is completely flat. I think this myth around the instability of hide skins is a product of Remo's PR department. And I live in London. Not renowned for its equable climate.

---

I will have to disagree with you about changes with humidity. In 2020 I built a tack head banjo with a hide head. The design was largley inspired by a post on this site. I believe it was called "A complete guide to building a tack head banjo" by rudy. Mine has a 5 layer hardwood pot, a 3 piece laminated neck, natural rawhide goatskin head, black walnut frettless fingerboard, set up with nylon strings. Most of the construction was done in Tennesee, but the head was glued and tacked on here in Arizona when the humidity was not more than 10%. I usually get back east for a month or so during Aug / Sept each year, where the humidity is much higher, sometimes into the 90% range. After being in that climate for a few weeks the head will soften enough that the low action I like allows the strings to contact the fingerboard while vibrating after being sounded. Thankfully, the design I have includes an adjustable neck so I can raise the action sufficiently to play cleanly. I do not need a different bridge with this system, just a small wrench to make the change. I suspect that a natural head kept in any particular location may not experience the drastic change that mine goes through. My point is that yes, with enough of a humidity change, a natural head will soften enough to require some sort of adjustment to the setup. It happens every time I take my home built banjo back east for an extended trip. 

jacksass - Posted - 07/05/2024:  10:28:45

I have an old Slingerland 5 that I had set up with a skin head and it was fine until i moved it to Thailand ! I live in a house in the north east. When it rains it pours ! we eat rice Ha Ha . so looking back on it all I remember constantly tightening the head finally realizing it was stretching to the point where it could not go any further because of the heel cut out . So thats it for me no more pig and goat the humidity is a serious factor. I don't play walking around in the rain...... but sometimes the rain comes in the house !!!! you think I was at sea . I take care , me and my banjos.

writerrad - Posted - 07/25/2024:  15:48:54

Before I knew much about this I purchased two banjos with scoops, one a production Enoch Tradesman and another a custom built banjo built for a friend by a great luthier at a great price and sold to me at friendship prices.

I find the scoop to detract from my ability to play the banjo as banjos were designed, to play notes up there fretted. This is a limited innovation, that cuts people off from the continuity of banjo history. It is also part of the deformation of old time banjo to generalize the practice of a relative few banjoists from a limited area of North Carolina and Virginia, where only a few banjoists did this, and deforming knowledge of the banjo and its playing.

I find it particuarly noxious since I have a about 5 banjos that I play and I will often try the same tune on different banjos only to strike out on the scoops

Noah Cline - Posted - 07/25/2024:  17:02:50

Honestly, on the rare occasions I might play over the neck (on a 22-fret fingerboard) I tend to pick the 17th fret for my thumb to strike the string in the space between frets 16 and 17. It works for me, but I prefer playing over the head closer to the tension hoop/neck joint. 

At a jam once, someone sitting across from me looking at my Morgan Monroe asked me, jokingly, what I was doing with all those extra frets. I just kinda shrugged. I figure that they're there if I need 'em, and if not, they're still there and ain't hurting anything.

seancheol-ceol-nua - Posted - 08/12/2024:  11:57:25

I also play over the fretboard without a scoop! I really enjoy it, I find it produces a nice warm and fairly loud sound. The main issue I end up with is that the strings get closer together. But other than that it's really fun!