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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Transposing keys


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/397186

Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/05/2024:  19:32:38


I have been slowly (very slowly) trying to wrap my head around music theory and how it relates to the banjo.
I am wondering about transposing from one key to another and want to make sure I am understanding correctly.
So, lets say I am playing a song in the key of G major but my friend says she can only sing in the Key of A. The chords used are your standard G, C, and D (I-IV-V) So in order to transpose the song into A would I then play the same song using the chords A, D, and E?
And further, if I were to play various parts of the melody would I then transpose them in the same way? And what would I do about the various sharps and flats in the original key that are not in the transposed key? As well as vice versa?
Appreciate the help and insight on this

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/05/2024:  20:01:12


here's a chart

Keys are in red
for example for the key of A you can play out of
A no capo
F capo 4
G capo 2
D capo 7


Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/05/2024:  20:09:45


That's actually quite helpful Rick for using a capo. However I am trying to figure out how to transpose from one key to another without using a capo. Trying to memorize all 12 keys for that reason..most days I cant remember my own name or where I put my keys etc but for whatever reason I can memorize long strings of numbers/letters

Old Hickory - Posted - 05/05/2024:  21:33:14


Transpose the melody by moving every note the required same number of half steps up or down (whichever is closer) to put them in the new key. Sharps or flats will take care of themselves.



The two most basic things you should understand about keys, scales and chords are (1) that the scale for every major key follows the same pattern of whole and half steps (which is why all the keys other than C require sharps or flats, and (2) the "diatonic" (of the scale) chords for every major key follow the same sequence of major, minor and diminished. So the all-important 1-4-5 (or I IV V) chords are Major in every major scale. 2, 3 and 6 are minor. 7 is diminished.



Bluegrass, folk, country and rock will use a "flat seven" major chord far more often than a key's actual diminished chord. You hear this when a song in G goes to an F chord. The 2 and 3 chords, if used at all, will sometimes be switched to a major instead of minor. You hear this in Old Home Place when the verse melody (in G) goes to a B or B7 for the second chord and in the chorus when it goes to an A or A7 on the word "why."



You didn't really ask about those but I mentioned them because you should be aware of a chord that seems to be outside the key. It probably is. Technically. But in transposing you must be sure to retain the type of chord. A Major chord in the original key must still be a Major chord in the target key and so on.



Good luck.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/05/2024:  21:39:21


the Roman numerals at the bottom can be used as steps of the scale so you can transpose vertically into your desired key

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 05/05/2024:  22:43:20


It is a good practice to understand what the roman numerals in Rick's chart represent in every key. At least know what I-IV-V is in every key, then you can extrapolate the others using them as an anchor. I have worked with Nashville charts (usually backing up singers) where the actual key isn't even mentioned, just the intervals. That way, it doesn't matter what key you are in, it's all just relative.

Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/06/2024:  00:44:55


Too cool..I actually got this one right for once! I thought maybe I was oversimplifying it...music theory really is turning out to be like mathematics...thanks everybody! When I get to where I actually can play a few dozen songs or so it will be interesting to try them out in different keys just for fun

Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/06/2024:  04:34:45


Check out the Nashville Numbering System and you can quickly and easily transpose any major key to another major key. It uses numbers to represent the notes and makes it easy to change from one key to another and also works for changing chords.   I've used it for years and makes it so easy to go from say G to A or D to F and so on.

Go here for a better explanation: grantlar.com/nashville-number-system/


Edited by - Texasbanjo on 05/06/2024 04:36:24

Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/06/2024:  05:12:39


It will take me a while to fully wrap my head around all that but what a great article! Thanks Sherry!

dfstd - Posted - 05/06/2024:  06:04:18


If you have a copy of the Jam Songbook by Pete Wernick and Liam Purcell, there's a straightforward explanation of transposing and the Nashville Number System on pages 3-4. If you don't have the book, you might like to get a copy to have the many of the Bluegrass Jam standards.



drbanjo.com/product/jam-songbook



The appropriate sharps and flats will kick in when you transpose to certain keys, but you don't need to worry about that unless you're scoring the music in standard notation, which hardly anyone does in Bluegrass anyway. Wernick/Purcell don't get into that in their book, and yet many beginners joining our jam seem to pick up the number system pretty well.


Edited by - dfstd on 05/06/2024 06:04:55

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 05/06/2024:  07:40:39


quote:

Originally posted by Old Hickory

Transpose the melody by moving every note the required same number of half steps up or down (whichever is closer) to put them in the new key. Sharps or flats will take care of themselves.






Here's another way to think about transposing. We can also think of individual notes as numbers, just as we do with chords. So whatever numbers correspond to the notes of a melody in the original key, use those same numbers for the new key.



For example, let's say you know "Happy Birthday to You" in G and want to transpose it into B-flat. The G-major scale is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. The B-flat major scale is Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb. The notes for the first phrase in the key of G are D-D-E-D-G-F#. In numbers, that's 5-5-6-5-1-7. So if you plug in the notes from the B-flat scale, you get F-F-G-F-Bb-A.

monstertone - Posted - 05/06/2024:  16:47:09


quote:

Originally posted by Patrick1962

I have been slowly (very slowly) trying to wrap my head around music theory and how it relates to the banjo.

I am wondering about transposing from one key to another and want to make sure I am understanding correctly.

So, lets say I am playing a song in the key of G major but my friend says she can only sing in the Key of A. The chords used are your standard G, C, and D (I-IV-V) So in order to transpose the song into A would I then play the same song using the chords A, D, and E?

And further, if I were to play various parts of the melody would I then transpose them in the same way? And what would I do about the various sharps and flats in the original key that are not in the transposed key? As well as vice versa?

Appreciate the help and insight on this






This is a common issue when dealing with female vocalists. The short answer is capo second fret & play as if in the key of G. This assumes the 5th string is also capoed two frets up (7th fret =A).

Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/06/2024:  18:05:04


Ira: thats kinda what I thought but wanted to make sure..thanks for the confirmation

JD: Thanks..I understand the basics of using a capo but wanted to know how to be able to transpose to another key. It seems to be pretty straightforward. Just memorize the chart and voila! you can play in any key you want.



So then, what are the pros and cons of using a capo vs just transposing directly into another key? I mean, if you have your F, D, and barre shapes down along with their minor and 7th shapes and have practiced various common chord progressions from different keys why would you need a capo? Not trying to be a know-it-all newbie a$$hole just want to understand

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/06/2024:  19:33:00


If you just want to play chords, you can capo or transpose, but if you want to play the canon of five string banjo,licks, most of them involve open strings so the capo is needed.

Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/06/2024:  19:52:35


Rick: would you mind explaining that in a little more detail? I am focusing on Scruggs 5 string style and am still relatively new to this. If some of my assumptions about the music aren't correct, please correct me

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/06/2024:  20:46:19


here's some common licks, notice the amount of open strings. If no capo is used a finger has to hold those notes while you're trying to do the other pitches which need slides, hammer- ons, pull-offs, bends etc.


Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 05/06/2024 20:46:50


Owen - Posted - 05/07/2024:  20:41:40


I dunno if this is of any use/relevance: logue.net/xp/?fbclid=IwAR0LgGh...sRSrSfJMM    ...or IF it's tantamount to shooting one's-self in the foot if it screws with learning theory and/or figuring things out.  

Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/08/2024:  04:33:29


quote:

Originally posted by Patrick1962

Rick: would you mind explaining that in a little more detail? I am focusing on Scruggs 5 string style and am still relatively new to this. If some of my assumptions about the music aren't correct, please correct me






I'm not Rick, but maybe this will help  you understand why capos are so handy to use.  



You're probably familiar with "the lick" that almost every banjo player plays/has played/will play at the end of a musical phrase.  Take that phrase and try to make it sound the same with closed chords and it's almost impossible.  Capo up and it's easy and sounds great.  Same goes for many other hot licks that have a lot of open notes in them.



 

Patrick1962 - Posted - 05/08/2024:  18:00:08


Ok! Excellent! Thanks Sherry..that makes sense now

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