sethb - Posted - 04/23/2024:  11:45:33

I headed over here from the Four-String section, in hopes that someone can help me solve a "key change" question that's eluding me.

I need to play the same song in two different keys -- Eb (for the vocalist) and F (for a melody chord solo).  I think I've figured out how to go from Eb to F: finish the song on the Eb chord, then just slide up two frets to F in four beats, play a C7 chord for the pickup, and go on from there.  It's not elegant, but I think it would work.  If anyone has a prettier or better way of getting there, please let me know.  

However, getting from F to Eb has stumped me.  I guess I could do the same thing in reverse (dropping two frets in four beats), but that's not too original!  So I'm wondering if there's a nice chord progression that might get me there instead.  I was playing around with F to F+, to Bb to Bb7, to Eb, but that seems like "the long way around the Maypole," as they say. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!  SETH  

Edited by - sethb on 04/23/2024 11:56:46

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/23/2024:  14:53:05

Assuming your solo resolves back the F chord, perhaps on the count of one in its measure, I'd do a simple sep-down to E-flat: First half measure F, second half measure E, start of new verse, E-flat.

I'm writing this without an instrument in hand.

For the key change TO F, I wonder if it would work to go from the end of the E-flat verse to a B-flat (the five chord of the key) then to a C7 (the II chord to B-flat), then to F.  What this does is create a II-VI-I progression, Sort of.

Again, I'm doing this without an instrument in hand and without knowing the actual song. So I'm not sure this works other than in my head, in writing, and in theory.

Tell us the song and maybe we can suggest better solutions.

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 04/23/2024:  15:46:09

Have you tried F - Edim7 - Eb or F - Edim7 - Bb7 - Eb?

sethb - Posted - 04/23/2024:  17:50:55

Thanks for the interesting suggestions, which I'll try in the morning.  I hadn't thought about using a diminished chord, which is a lovely possibility! 

BTW, the song is EARTH ANGEL, which I'm playing on a tenor guitar tuned to CGBD, the same tuning as my plectrum banjo.  I had hoped to avoid all this rigamarole by getting the vocalist to sing the tune in F, but she's an alto and is already at the top of her range in Eb on this number.  SETH

Edited by - sethb on 04/23/2024 17:55:59

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/23/2024:  22:37:32

Your vocalist will need to sing a G note to start back in Eb so I would do this progression which signals a change on the diminished chord and has G's i,n the last two chords:

F Abdim B7#5 Bb13

sethb - Posted - 04/24/2024:  05:19:06

Rick --- Thanks for your suggestion, and I have one question.  Since I'm only working with four strings,  most chords beyond a seventh require that I drop a note in order to add the additional tone.  Additionally, as I always tell people, "I only know just enough music theory to be dangerous!" 

So I'm not sure how to get to the B7#5 or the Bb13 that you suggested.  While I can handle sixes and ninths, whenever I hit a thirteenth I just play the major chord and hope for the best.  Ditto on that B7#5, which seems to me to be some sort of augmented chord, but I've never tried to figure out a fingering for it; however, a straight B7 obviously isn't going to do the trick.  

Can you shed some light on these chords for me?  Thanks!  SETH

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/24/2024:  06:36:06

The V of the new key usually works. So I'd go F-F7-Bb-Bb7-Eb. Maybe you could use walkups to make those transitions seem inevitable.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 04/24/2024 06:36:57

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/24/2024:  07:32:59

Here it is on the lowest frets possible.

Earth Angel - key change

Earth Angel - key change

250gibson - Posted - 04/24/2024:  08:06:04

It seems like the simplest, most logical way to modulate from F to Eb would be a ii-V-I progression in the target key. In this case Fm-Bb-Eb

RB3 - Posted - 04/24/2024:  09:20:28

When you get the end of the vocal in Eb, just stop, and then play the instrumental solo in F. In the link below, Allen Shelton demonstrates how to do it at the 0:45 second mark of the recording.

Little Old Log Cabin In The Lane

sethb - Posted - 04/24/2024:  10:02:59

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and sound samples!  After wandering around the fretboard for a while, I've decided to go with the diminished chord suggestion -- a great idea that I had overlooked somehow. 

Here's the key change from F to Eb:  Final F chord (at the nut), then to Cdim (starting at the 4th fret), and then to a Bb7 (at the 6th fret) and a Bb+ (also at the 6th fret), then to Eb (at the third fret) and into the song in Eb, with a Bb6 (at the second fret) for the pickup note.  

For the key change from Eb to F:  I'm going with a simple slide down the neck from Eb (at the third fret) to E and then to the first inversion of F at the fifth fret, and hitting the C6 at the fifth fret for the pickup note in the key of F. 

Give me a day or two and I'll post an MP3 of the solo and the key changes.  Thanks again to all for their time and expertise!  SETH 

Edited by - sethb on 04/24/2024 10:05:34

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/24/2024:  10:43:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

What this does is create a II-VI-I progression, Sort of.

---

YIKES!!

What bad typing. Or thinking. Or both.

I meant:   II -  V - I of course.  Two-five-one.

Not six.

Oy.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/24/2024:  10:49:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

BTW, the song is EARTH ANGEL, which I'm playing on a tenor guitar tuned to CGBD, the same tuning as my plectrum banjo.  I had hoped to avoid all this rigamarole by getting the vocalist to sing the tune in F, but she's an alto and is already at the top of her range in Eb on this number. 

---

Any reason not to do it in D?

Serious question. I don't know that tuning and have no idea or understanding why F would be any better for a tenor guitar solo than D. Happy to be educated.

Eulalie - Posted - 04/24/2024:  11:08:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

BTW, the song is EARTH ANGEL, which I'm playing on a tenor guitar tuned to CGBD, the same tuning as my plectrum banjo.  I had hoped to avoid all this rigamarole by getting the vocalist to sing the tune in F, but she's an alto and is already at the top of her range in Eb on this number. 

---

Any reason not to do it in D?

Serious question. I don't know that tuning and have no idea or understanding why F would be any better for a tenor guitar solo than D. Happy to be educated.

---

Congratulations, Seth B for having the good sense to work with a singer with a lower range.  My guess is that the reason Eb was chosen was because that is where the singer's voice sounds best.  Those of us who accompany singers are constantly faced with this issue ("Could we do this song a half-step lower?").  Ultimately, getting comfortable playing in several different keys builds character.

Eulalie - Posted - 04/24/2024:  11:32:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by sethb

I headed over here from the Four-String section, in hopes that someone can help me solve a "key change" question that's eluding me.

I need to play the same song in two different keys -- Eb (for the vocalist) and F (for a melody chord solo).  I think I've figured out how to go from Eb to F: finish the song on the Eb chord, then just slide up two frets to F in four beats, play a C7 chord for the pickup, and go on from there.  It's not elegant, but I think it would work.  If anyone has a prettier or better way of getting there, please let me know.  

However, getting from F to Eb has stumped me.  I guess I could do the same thing in reverse (dropping two frets in four beats), but that's not too original!  So I'm wondering if there's a nice chord progression that might get me there instead.  I was playing around with F to F+, to Bb to Bb7, to Eb, but that seems like "the long way around the Maypole," as they say. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!  SETH  

---

I scanned the other responses and I don't think this simple solution was mentioned: Move from Eb directly to C7 and then to F.  This is effectively a well worn circle-of-fifths solution.  The C7 serves an ambiguous function as V of ii, but also acts as a modified vi chord for Eb (actually c-minor), then sets up as the V chord of F.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/24/2024:  13:23:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eulalie

Congratulations, Seth B for having the good sense to work with a singer with a lower range.  My guess is that the reason Eb was chosen was because that is where the singer's voice sounds best. 

---

Seth told us otherwise when he said the singer "is already at the top of her range in E-flat," which to me means she sings more comfortably and sounds best in a lower key.

So the point of my question remains: why push the singer to the top of her range when there might be an easy-to-play key such as D where she can sing more comfortably? Or for that matter, C (seeing as three half steps higher is the top of her range).

What is there about playing the solo in F that makes a modulation so worth the effort?

Edited . . . I'm going to gnaw on this bone some more. Since the tenor guitar's low string is C, why not play the song in C and have the instrument's lowest note available as the root?

Obviously I'm missing something about the attraction of playing the solo in F where the singer can't sing.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 04/24/2024 13:32:58