GrahamHawker - Posted - 04/07/2024:  02:14:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Douglas

quote:

---

Originally posted by conic

Yuk, lots of nice Christian cry babies on here just because they know he is not on here to defend himself and now dragging other names into it.

Sounds like some very nice humans are just as bad as what they are saying about Clifton and George and Patrrick

---

 

Hey.... please be careful.

Holding that type of mirror up to some of these moral, upright, decent folks here wil not sit well with them. You are at risk for being ostracized.

---

There are reasons two of these people get banned all the time sometimes lasting less than a few hours. People who make derogatory, insulting and explicit posts, and appear in forums and the like to do nothing else, don't get to stay long. But again some people seem to find such stuff morally acceptable. Luckily the rules and the Mods don't.

banjoy - Posted - 04/07/2024:  04:15:36

I try always -- always -- to stay away from these controversies and kerfuffles on BHO or anywhere else. But I do find it remarkable that in this thread so called "liberals" get blamed for all this or that Hick's posting of some controversial songs got him banned. That's utter nonsense. But it does not stop the blame machine and manufactured outrage at non-conservative views as normal. As other's posted here with direct knowledge there is much more to the story, a whole lot more.



I think I posted maybe once or twice to any of those past threads, to point out that controversy seems to follow Hicks wherever he goes. That's an observation, not a judgment. I did file a mod complaint about some absurd thread many years ago where, in this public forum, which is also read by kids, there were all these outrageous references to gays and blowj**s that had no place here. At all. What the hell?



The posts Hicks made with those controversial tunes did, in my opinion, spark some interesting discussion about all the other old and familiar tunes that also had similar themes, and I felt those aspects of the discussions were healthy and appropriate here. It was all the other stuff that derailed the train sending the locomotive plowing into irrelevant and disgusting territory, over innocent bystanders. As I recall, this happened many many times over a long while and poof, Hicks was gone.



As far as talent goes, clawhammer or frailing has never turned my creative crank but that's just me, so I never followed his work, but have watched several of his YouTube videos. Way back then. It's just not my cup of tea so if he's a world class talent, as other's suggest here, I'll defer to their opinion over my own.



It's been suggested here in this thread, there is some darkness in his past, which would explain quite a bit ... and I know from personal experience how past trauma can affect outlook and living, and interacting with others. From my perspective, our purpose here on earth is to merely witness, and experience life, for the creation can't experience itself but through us, the good, the bad, the ugly, and the beautiful. It's all here, we make our choices how to act ourselves, and how to act with others. Sometimes, it can be ugly and on full display. But these are just snapshots, moments memorialized in time.



I do not know this guy and it doesn't matter to me if I ever do. I wish him well, in the literal sense, and enough with this liberal-conservative bulls***. That means nothing, it's just an opinion. Experience means everything, and sometimes, it's painful. Sometimes, it's not. It is what it is.

Edited by - banjoy on 04/07/2024 04:23:35

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/07/2024:  08:30:54

Great post Frank!

A lot of stuff to chew on there!
Much appreciated!


As Aristotle famously said....

"No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness."

I'll put Clifton in the genius category!

Eulalie - Posted - 04/07/2024:  09:10:32

I don't normally bother to add comments on BHO fora unless I can contribute factual or technical information, and I do not have a history with Clifton Hicks, so I won't comment on the language and insults, perceived or real.

But I will point out a very unfortunate tendency for groups of people to decide someone is "the other" and decide that person should be scapegoated, and the multitudes pile on. This is the least appealing aspect of any social media format and I don't approve. Like the guy or don't like the guy, but think about his music in a different context.

When it comes down to it, most of the people who came up in the tradition of music in the 19th and 20th centuries had a narrow experience of life and tended to develop and express ideas and language we all would find less than acceptable today. Should we cancel all the music because some traditional players may have been racist or sexist?

Maybe someone should think of something more interesting to discuss.

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/07/2024:  09:31:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eulalie

Maybe someone should think of something more interesting to discuss.

---

I find this topic extremely interesting!

In fact, I was up all night thinking and reading 

about it. I'm hoping there will be more to 

come...

Thank you for your post.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 04/07/2024:  09:57:47

"Don't get yer panties inna wad" is innocuous enough that I heard it spoken in class by a high school teacher to a student fifty years ago. Not sexist, applicable to all, a mildly humorous retort to anyone not insisting upon being offended at every opportunity.

Tractor1 - Posted - 04/07/2024:  10:39:18

my opinion --I ask no agreement

talking to your current human --one,that has been overbearing at the-moment--talking about his or her personal area is nauseating and --it is less than a showing of intelligence --being brought on. -- -----One, could fulfill their need to retort by staying with the subject matter--and giving better opposing facts and in the process seem a bit more mature.--   If in a last word contests on the net--just say --I am out of time --so I give you the last word -

I never paid much attention to Clifton--his first post I read--I thought --this guy is proclaiming "us against them"--the ''them ''---seemed to be anybody with picks on two fingers---I happened to be in his ''them'' crowd --

I don't diss, any of the ways of playing good music on the banjo--nor consider one better than the rest--there are many great players -that are polite--I spend my thoughts with them--life is short and politeness is more fun--to me

Edited by - Tractor1 on 04/07/2024 10:42:21

writerrad - Posted - 04/07/2024:  14:11:10

quote:

What does that have to do with Clifton.  He is not a traditional player from another era.  He is a middle class guy who grew up in the suburbs of Orlando who must be in his thirties by now who holds a masters degree.

He is the one who has been scape goating and slandering all kinds of people and carrying out conduct that every online and Facebook banjo and old time music that anyone knows about as  the Banjo Hangout which is more than tolerant has eventually kicked him out for.  It isnt a question of his opinions but a sick pattern of personal slanders he knows are lies and personal attacks, setting up fake accounts to get at people who have "unfriended" him etc, etc.   

As been pointed out here  BHO apparently asked him to follow the same rules as everyone else.   He refuses.  

 

---

Originally posted by Eulalie

I don't normally bother to add comments on BHO fora unless I can contribute factual or technical information, and I do not have a history with Clifton Hicks, so I won't comment on the language and insults, perceived or real.



But I will point out a very unfortunate tendency for groups of people to decide someone is "the other" and decide that person should be scapegoated, and the multitudes pile on. This is the least appealing aspect of any social media format and I don't approve. Like the guy or don't like the guy, but think about his music in a different context.



When it comes down to it, most of the people who came up in the tradition of music in the 19th and 20th centuries had a narrow experience of life and tended to develop and express ideas and language we all would find less than acceptable today. Should we cancel all the music because some traditional players may have been racist or sexist?



Maybe someone should think of something more interesting to discuss.

---

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/07/2024:  15:24:12

A great big thank you to R.D. Lunceford

for putting this amazing banjo player/singer on my radar!



Talent like this doesn't come along every day!



Very much appreciated!

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/07/2024 15:25:01

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/07/2024:  16:38:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by gratefulbiker

Clifton is certainly a great player/ singer and his dedication to the old school playing styles is without question.

Unfortunately, he’s been his own worst enemy the last few years due to a fair amount of questionable behavior in other online banjo communities.

This includes homophobic and racist 

---

I do not mean to display my ignorance.....

But if Clifton is, in fact, a racist individual...

Why would he have a picture of black musicians on his Patreon page?

A black drummer, fiddle player, banjo player, and bones player is featured prominently

on his home Patreon page!

Could someone shed some light on this?

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/07/2024 16:40:19

doryman - Posted - 04/07/2024:  19:10:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Douglas

quote:

---

Originally posted by gratefulbiker

Clifton is certainly a great player/ singer and his dedication to the old school playing styles is without question.

Unfortunately, he’s been his own worst enemy the last few years due to a fair amount of questionable behavior in other online banjo communities.

This includes homophobic and racist 

---

I do not mean to display my ignorance.....

But if Clifton is, in fact, a racist individual...

Why would he have a picture of black musicians on his Patreon page?

A black drummer, fiddle player, banjo player, and bones player is featured prominently

on his home Patreon page!

Could someone shed some light on this?

 

---

I don't know beans about Clifton Hicks, but I can shed some possible light.  My own father gets along famously with the black men and women who work for him.  He even has "employee of the month" type pictures of them on the office wall.  Many years ago, an upstanding young black man under my father's employ started dating my sister.  Let's just say that it went very, very poorly for the young fellow and it tore our family apart.  Apparently, the young man did not know his place, according to my father, and my sister was bringing great shame to our family by dating a black man.  It was a very ugly time and it exposed my father for the kind of man he really was.  Again, I don't know Mr. Hicks, but don't be fooled by a few pictures. 

ceemonster - Posted - 04/07/2024:  23:39:31

I am uncomfortable with the double standard that seems to apply here in giving free rein for pages to comments that publicly apply maligning ad hominem terms to named individuals versus immediately slamming on the padlock. Let alone named individuals not free to respond or rebut.  There is a line, and I believe it is being crossed here in places.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/07/2024 23:41:48

KCJones - Posted - 04/08/2024:  09:43:34

Clifton mostly gets flack from Jake Blount's legion of online minions. The idea that a murder ballad or any other online arguments caused this issue is ludicrous, as he was dealing with it for years before. It primarily stems from academic disagreements about the history of American folk music. 

It's not because of any off-color comments, but because he offers a factual history that contradicts the racially divisive and blatantly false "officially sanctioned history" that is presented by Blount and his friends. He literally cannot post in many online spaces, because there is a sizable number of "terminally online" activists that will attack him if he does. That's also why he's been forced to use various aliases to post some content.



Most of this goes unsaid in these types of threads, some people know the details but most don't. I think this context is important enough to state explicitly in this discussion, and I hope that it isn't removed by the BHO moderation team.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/08/2024 09:46:49

Matt Buckley - Posted - 04/08/2024:  10:24:01

Early on, I found Clifton's presentation of his theories to be ineffective.  Not right vs. wrong, but ineffective.  If you have views worth sharing, isn't the point to be able to get and keep folks' attention?  Instead, his delivery was and is consistently off-putting, as is use of terms like "minions" and "Leftist Internet Hate Machine" in this thread.  Mr. Hicks may have many things worth paying attention to, but delivery that lacks humility, grace, nuance and complexity isn't going to get the job done.  

The French writer Gide, from a century ago, said "Let them be right.  That's all they can be".  If Mr. Hicks were less concerned about being right, my guess is that he'd be far more compelling and far more interesting. 

ndlxs - Posted - 04/08/2024:  10:26:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Buckley

The French writer Gide, from a century ago, said "Let them be right.  That's all they can be".  If Mr. Hicks were less concerned about being right, my guess is that he'd be far more compelling and far more interesting. 

 

 

That pretty much applies to all of us, and is an excellent reminder.  The minute you think you are right you stop listening.

Tractor1 - Posted - 04/08/2024:  10:55:17

I don't have much faith in any all in one explanation of how all the players of music from ---all of the ages--influenced each other--especially when seasoned with the communication and transportation modes of yester year--
before the steam engines---regional was more the norm--and regions were a bit of a different size back then--when crossing them took so much longer
putting all of this in an adamant global perspective would be leaving out most of true stories--
I am for all the fun to read evidence and find it interesting study--but I only adopt the evidence --So ,no one source of western folk music--caused all others to be a certain way--
my opinion I ask no agreement

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/09/2024:  06:30:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Buckley

 Instead, his delivery was and is consistently off-putting, as is use of terms like "minions" and "Leftist Internet Hate Machine" in this thread.  Mr. Hicks may have many things worth paying attention to, but delivery that lacks humility, grace, nuance and complexity isn't going to get the job done.  

 

 

---

I understand that for some folks that's a real concern.....

History is inundated with figures who might have had unsavory or appalling political views.

The great philosopher Heidegger (who was a Nazi) comes to mind,

It's all about the banjo and his compelling voice that I find fascinating.

I'm not sure everyone is comfortable separating the music from the parsonal views of the musician!

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/09/2024:  07:05:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Douglas

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Buckley

 Instead, his delivery was and is consistently off-putting, as is use of terms like "minions" and "Leftist Internet Hate Machine" in this thread.  Mr. Hicks may have many things worth paying attention to, but delivery that lacks humility, grace, nuance and complexity isn't going to get the job done.  

 

 

---

 

I understand that for some folks that's a real concern.....

History is inundated with figures who might have had unsavory or appalling political views.

The great philosopher Heidegger (who was a Nazi) comes to mind,

It's all about the banjo and his compelling voice that I find fascinating.

I'm not sure everyone is comfortable separating the music from the parsonal views of the musician!

 

 

 

---

I don't know about everyone else, but I do have a problem separating the two.  I once left my seat at a festival because the band leader got up and instead of playing his set, he proceeded to preach to the audience.  If I'd wanted a sermon, I'd have gone to church.   Some things like religion, politics and bad language, have no place at festivals where people come to hear music.  Just my take. 

ceemonster - Posted - 04/09/2024:  10:20:20

There have been plenty of angry and off-putting terms, appellations, and rhetoric used in this and other threads about this topic, as to some of the clawhammer-world names on respective sides of whatever one might call this debate, divide, conflict, etc. Personally, I find those on both polar ends simultaneously very gifted and knowledgeable, yet at times utterly insufferable. I simply would like to see consistency in policies about the tenor of characterizations applied to individuals and events that are allowed to stand in writing on a public internet forum.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/09/2024:  13:27:56

We try, but our idea of consistency might not be yours. Also, a site like BHO does not have the resources to hire full-time moderators who might find it easier to set and adhere to a detailed set of posting rules.

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/09/2024:  13:59:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

We try, but our idea of consistency might not be yours. Also, a site like BHO does not have the resources to hire full-time moderators who might find it easier to set and adhere to a detailed set of posting rules.

---

Honestly Bill.....you guys do an amazing job!

If you mods. attempted to respond to every 

guy or gal that gets bent out of shape or cries

injustice or hypocrisy, you all would be in the 

looney bin! Most of the time folks just can't 

stand to see something posted that is so 

diametrically opposed to their core values and 

beliefs. There is (rightly or wrongly) a sense of 

ownership by some. "How dare you allow this 

to be posted on my forum!"  And this sense of 

ownership translates to hostility....and 

occasionally anger.

Talk about a thankless job!

You all win the gold medal for that!

For all of its shortcomings and flaws...this 

forum has helped a lot of pickers! And has 

been the source of an extraordinary amount

of information that could never be found elsewhere!

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/09/2024 14:15:14

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 04/09/2024:  14:43:46

Well, I've been out of town and off-line for the last few days, and was surprised to see how this thread has developed.

I don't know where I must have been not to have seen or known of Clifton's posts... I've been fairly regular here since 2006!

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/09/2024:  18:09:36

quote:Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford and was surprised to see how this thread has developed.











That would be pleasantly surprised....

correct?

 

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/09/2024 18:10:26

KCJones - Posted - 04/10/2024:  10:52:39

Here's the thing. The main group of people that don't like Clifton are the folks that are offended at everything. Absolutely everything nowadays, they're offended about it. Everything is a personal slight, their entire world-view is shaped by perceived oppression from a perceived privileged class. It's like it's their job or something. For some of them I'm pretty sure it actually is their job.



I just have a hard time taking people seriously when their default state is outrage. Today they're upset about a song someone played, and tomorrow they'll be offended by something else. When someone is offended and outraged about nearly everything they encounter, sure maybe they're right sometimes, but it's still hard to take them seriously when that happens. It's a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" situation with these people.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/10/2024 10:53:11

banjo bill-e - Posted - 04/10/2024:  14:21:42

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/10/2024:  15:16:13

Evidence is something often lacking on the BHO when people make assertions.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/10/2024:  15:19:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.

---

If we were in a court of law, one might have to do just that.  Since this is just a banjo forum, it's not mandatory, although it would be nice if they did.

KCJones - Posted - 04/10/2024:  17:40:05

Wait does this mean we can call people racist or other things without evidence and that's allowed?

Just want to make sure I'm clear on the rules.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/10/2024:  18:20:22

There is no specific rule. Generally members should avoid inflammatory characterizations of others. “Racist” seems inflammatory, and deserving of evidence. There are tools to report such language. Use them.

ceemonster - Posted - 04/10/2024:  23:52:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

There is no specific rule. Generally members should avoid inflammatory characterizations of others. “Racist” seems inflammatory, and deserving of evidence. There are tools to report such language. Use them.

---

It was brought to the Mods' attention several posts ago in comments by myself and others on this very thread, expressing concern about characterizations that do seem to be crossing lines.

banjoy - Posted - 04/11/2024:  04:32:14

I would kindly suggest that this thread has run its course and serves no purpose beyond this point, for the many reasons cited above by others, and that perhaps it should be locked, that it will only be a circular discussion going forward. This is just my opinion, but I believe a shared one.

Edited by - banjoy on 04/11/2024 04:33:48

MRichaud - Posted - 04/11/2024:  04:45:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

I would kindly suggest that this thread has run its course and serves no purpose beyond this point, for the many reasons cited above by others, and that perhaps it should be locked, that it will only be a circular discussion going forward. This is just my opinion, but I believe a shared one.

---

Yup!

I like cheese!

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/11/2024:  06:15:02

I am wondering if anyone here has taken online lessons with Clifton?

Also, is there any opinion on his Patreon lessons? Great lessons? Mediocre?

This style of banjo playing is quite fascinating!
Is it true that Clifton developed that style mostly on his own?

Thanks in advance for any info!

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/11/2024:  06:19:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Evidence is something often lacking on the BHO when people make assertions.

---

Well....

We do have evidence of the dark side of human nature!

And.... it's right here in this thread.

I suspect that one of Clifton's friends/acquaintances has alerted him

to the nature of this topic. 

Perhaps he's laughing his head off right now...!

This is a classic example of "what is" and "what appears to be"...

Oh, the irony!

Edited by - Mark Douglas on 04/11/2024 06:26:11

conic - Posted - 04/11/2024:  06:25:59

Oh dear, its funny how when the thread is turning to Cliffs favour some are scared of the truth and want it cancelled, disgraceful also as it somebody else's post. you could not make this up,
Its a good job there are some level headed mods.

KCJones - Posted - 04/11/2024:  07:04:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Douglas

I am wondering if anyone here has taken online lessons with Clifton?



Also, is there any opinion on his Patreon lessons? Great lessons? Mediocre?



This style of banjo playing is quite fascinating!

Is it true that Clifton developed that style mostly on his own?



Thanks in advance for any info!

---

Not currently, but I've taken some video lessons from him in the past and have subscribed to his Patreon in an on-and-off pattern. 

Overall, his approach is great. His approach is very much emphasized by the "traditional vernacular" approach, which is different than most online teachers. The lessons feel like "knee-to-knee" lessons. He primarily teaches by ear and showing what to do on the banjo, and for songs with lyrics he always teaches the lyrics and encourages students that songs with lyrics should be sung rather than just played instrumental. He emphasizes learning to play a song your own way, and encourages adding your own flairs/style to the songs. He does provide tabs, but they're more for reference after lessons, he doesn't teach from tabs at all. He also integrates the history of the songs/music into the lessons, so not only do you learn how to play a song you also learn where it came from originally, the historical context of the song, and about notable renditions through the years. 

ceemonster - Posted - 04/11/2024:  07:14:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.

---

If we were in a court of law, one might have to do just that.  Since this is just a banjo forum, it's not mandatory, although it would be nice if they did.

I am very surprised to read this reply.  Because I recall distinctly an instance where a commenter (not myself), metaphorically described one of the involved individuals in a controversy with the person who is the subject of this thread, "a carpetbagger"  in the sense of a poser or phony in the  oldtime/clawhammer-authenticity department.      And you specifically deleted that comment with an admonition along the lines of,  "Negative comments about individual banjo players are unacceptable here."

Which i support and have no problem with.    But if one reviews this thread honestly, there are places where it appears to be open season for characterizations and appellations of a different banjo player, which are markedly worse than the example I just gave of a comment swiftly removed when made about someone else.  

There are also references on this thread to a controversy between Mr. Hicks and others in the oldtime banjo community involving social media posts and text conversations occurring elsewhere.   Another surprise, given that threads and discussion here about that very dust-up were shut down---actions by the BH mods which I also understand and support.

But it appears to be free rein in this thread to make unsupported conclusory statements regarding the facts of those events, along with inflammatory appellations applied to named people--that is, free rein if applied to one named person.   

Personally, the query that launched this thread as well as a chunk of the discussion, did not seem out of bounds to me.  But some assertions represented here as factual are troubling given that accounts from all sides and links to evidence are not present for people to consider for themselves and discussion of such has been specifically barred here.   And given that full discussion and debate of some themes and issues touches on subject matter off limits at BH.

And in places on this thread,  inflammatory appellations or characterizations have been allowed to stand about a named individual in a manner which seems to cross lines--legal lines, fairness lines, and lines drawn by BH itself.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 07:28:25

KCJones - Posted - 04/11/2024:  07:24:22

ceemonster the answer is pretty obvious. Some people are allowed to say whatever they want here, and some musicians are okay to insult. Some other people must follow the rules, and some other musicians are not okay to disparage.

It's been like this for a long time. Most online communities deal with it. It's called playing favorites.

This comment will be deleted because the moderation team here knows it's true, and they refuse to stand up to public scrutiny.

ceemonster - Posted - 04/11/2024:  07:32:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

ceemonster the answer is pretty obvious. Some people are allowed to say whatever they want here, and some musicians are okay to insult. Some other people must follow the rules, and some other musicians are not okay to disparage.



It's been like this for a long time. Most online communities deal with it. It's called playing favorites.



This comment will be deleted because the moderation team here knows it's true, and they refuse to stand up to public scrutiny.

---

Well, I can't get into that.    Because I'm not supporting a "side."  I find the respective "sides"  talented, knowledgeable, and utterly insufferable at times.   I also understand BH-specific actions when BH rules are violated.   But I am calling for consistency and fairness when a discussion crosses lines into unsupported factual representations about non-BH events, or crosses lines into unproven disparaging, inflammatory appellations and characterizations about named people in writing on the internet.  Particularly when full debate or discussion is not possible because  a) Facts and evidence are unavailable here in the BH context; and B) Such debate/discussion would implicate BH subject-matter rules.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 07:41:24

Jehoshaphat - Posted - 04/11/2024:  07:46:49

Just for the record, before this thread is zipped up, it should be noted that CH served in Iraq and appears to exhibit classic PTSD. He's been active with antiwar and veterans' groups. His work with George Gibson is important, and Gibson is proud of his African American heritage and legacy, which cuts against the assumption that CH is racist.

CH ran afoul of NE academia (especially Berkeley), the cult of authenticity and what we now call "being woke."

I appreciate his art and his mission, but not the politics or cultural turf wars.

Edited by - Jehoshaphat on 04/11/2024 08:01:17

KCJones - Posted - 04/11/2024:  07:52:41

The idea that Clifton Hicks is racist is absolutely absurd. A significant portion of his online content focuses on the fact that white and black people lived, worked, and played together, and were not as divided as modern historians would have you believe. His content uses musical history as a platform to teach unity between all races and show that strong racial divisions were not as clear-cut as they're portrayed in common media. 

That's the entire reason for this entire issue, and I alluded to it before. Hicks teaches racial unity and promotes the true nuanced history that American folk music is multi-racial in nature. Blount teaches racial division and that specific music is exclusively from/for specific races. This is the root of the disagreement, and the seed from which all these arguments have stemmed. It's an academic disagreement between historians, and rather than stand on the merits of their argument, the anti-Hicks crowd has turned to an online smear campaign to discredit him as a person rather than addressing his actual positions. 



Someone saying Clifton Hicks is a racist is an immediate indication that they've never actually read or watched anything he's said.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/11/2024 07:58:30

ceemonster - Posted - 04/11/2024:  08:25:41

]]]Blount teaches racial division and that specific music is exclusively from/for specific races.[[[



This part I can't say I agree with. At least not in recent comments I've read or heard. What I've seen is, a stated desire to augment or restore history with facts that have not previously been aired.  I have actually seen that from both of these banjo player/historians.



I do think that both of these banjo player-historians have identified areas where historical evidence contradicts, or is inconclusive, in a manner counter to previous official history and received wisdom. (I should add, the "current" historical evidence, because the exciting thing about research and investigation, is that new evidence is continually being identified and brought to light.)



But where it's a matter of the record being inconclusive and uncertain, both perhaps have at times "leaned in" a bit hard in advocating for interpretations or theories that are possible but not proven, yet resonate in a way that is very appealing and meaningful for them.     Interpretations and theories are fine, so long as one is clear about differentiating what is known as fact from the record, versus, what that might suggest, or how that might be interpreted.   We are talking about young people here who are also very emotional and passionate, and perhaps "lean in" a bit hard.    I have seen interpretations or theories embraced and put out there in a way that ruffles feathers on respective sides of today's horrid polarities.    But I haven't seen anybody falsifying or misrepresenting historical sources.

This is difficult to discuss intelligently here, because it veers onto subject matter off limits at this forum.    Or at times is deemed as doing so.  I'm all for discussion and debate, but I don't intentionally cross lines as to BH rules.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 08:37:51

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/11/2024:  08:41:51

quote:

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Originally posted by ceemonster

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I have seen nothing from CH that would qualify him as a racist and do believe that anyone making that slander should provide some backup for their claim.

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If we were in a court of law, one might have to do just that.  Since this is just a banjo forum, it's not mandatory, although it would be nice if they did.

 

 

I am very surprised to read this reply.  Because I recall distinctly an instance where a commenter (not myself), metaphorically described one of the involved individuals in a controversy with the person who is the subject of this thread, "a carpetbagger"  in the sense of a poser or phony in the  oldtime/clawhammer-authenticity department.      And you specifically deleted that comment with an admonition along the lines of,  "Negative comments about individual banjo players are unacceptable here."

 

Which i support and have no problem with.    But if one reviews this thread honestly, there are places where it appears to be open season for characterizations and appellations of a different banjo player, which are markedly worse than the example I just gave of a comment swiftly removed when made about someone else.  

There are also references on this thread to a controversy between Mr. Hicks and others in the oldtime banjo community involving social media posts and text conversations occurring elsewhere.   Another surprise, given that threads and discussion here about that very dust-up were shut down---actions by the BH mods which I also understand and support.

But it appears to be free rein in this thread to make unsupported conclusory statements regarding the facts of those events, along with inflammatory appellations applied to named people--that is, free rein if applied to one named person.   

Personally, the query that launched this thread as well as a chunk of the discussion, did not seem out of bounds to me.  But some assertions represented here as factual are troubling given that accounts from all sides and links to evidence are not present for people to consider for themselves and discussion of such has been specifically barred here.   And given that full discussion and debate of some themes and issues touches on subject matter off limits at BH.

And in places on this thread,  inflammatory appellations or characterizations have been allowed to stand about a named individual in a manner which seems to cross lines--legal lines, fairness lines, and lines drawn by BH itself.

 

 

 

 

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If you don't like the way I moderate, take it up with me OFF the Hangout.  If you still don't like it, take it up with Eric.  If he doesn't like it, he will let me know what I'm doing wrong.  Otherwise, please let me (and the other moderators) do their job the best way they know how.

No matter how we moderate, there will be some that disagree and complain.  That's okay, that's your right but it's not your right to criticize me in a post.  That needs to be done privately, as per the rules.  Here's the rule:   

1. Posts Questioning a Moderator's Specific Actions: If you disagree with a moderator's actions, contact them or the site owner (Eric Schlange at eric@banjohangout.org). Please note that discussion of overall site policies is allowed, and should generally be placed in the "Improvements and Suggestions" forum.

As an aside, members are treated somewhat differently than non-members, especially those who have been banned because of rule breaking.   

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 04/11/2024 08:43:29

ceemonster - Posted - 04/11/2024:  08:56:19

Perhaps I was misled by the fact that when concerns have been raised about comments allowed free rein in this thread, you did not reply that such concerns must be expressed privately, but rather have engaged in discussion here in which you have justified the free rein given to inflammatory characterizations on this thread.   And you are continuing to justify that free rein.   That is greatly regrettable.

The concerns I raised were not about violations of BH rules that got anyone locked out.   The concerns I and others have expressed have involved inflammatory, potentially defamatory characterizations and appellations markedly surpassing negative comments deleted when made about others.     And the justification of that is regrettable to witness.

Edited by - ceemonster on 04/11/2024 09:00:16

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/11/2024:  11:06:40

quote:

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Originally posted by ceemonster

Perhaps I was misled by the fact that when concerns have been raised about comments allowed free rein in this thread, you did not reply that such concerns must be expressed privately, but rather have engaged in discussion here in which you have justified the free rein given to inflammatory characterizations on this thread.   And you are continuing to justify that free rein.   That is greatly regrettable.

 

The concerns I raised were not about violations of BH rules that got anyone locked out.   The concerns I and others have expressed have involved inflammatory, potentially defamatory characterizations and appellations markedly surpassing negative comments deleted when made about others.     And the justification of that is regrettable to witness.

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Most of the , as you put it potentially defamatory characterizations, are true.  It's not libel if it's true and it's not flaming if it's true.   You evidently were not here when all the problems happened with him and have no idea what really happened or why. 

Again, and last time, any more complaining about my moderating should be private, not public. 

GrahamHawker - Posted - 04/11/2024:  11:24:33

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Originally posted by KCJones

It is curious that some of the libelous comments in this thread still remain up, even now, even after the moderators have shown us that they are paying attention to the thread, even after those same moderators have admonished people for making personal attacks. As an example, gratefulbiker explicitly claims that someone is a racist and homophobe, is this allowed per BHO rules?

 

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The rules only cover members and not discussion of others.

The post you mention said " This includes homophobic and racist innuendo directed at several other online banjo personalities ". It took me five minutes to find one of these.

banjoy - Posted - 04/11/2024:  11:39:49

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Originally posted by conic

Oh dear, its funny how when the thread is turning to Cliffs favour some are scared of the truth and want it cancelled, disgraceful also as it somebody else's post. you could not make this up,

Its a good job there are some level headed mods.

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Not sure if you're referring to me, but if so, you're 180 degrees from where my truth is. My first long post to this thread, for those who bothered to read it, relayed the truthful experience of only one of many threads way back then, which is still in the archives (as far as I know those threads were never hidden), an accurate reporting of same. I have never called Hicks a racist or any other name. In this or any other thread. Ever. I don't know the guy. I'm not going to make that judgment of him, then or now. I posted above that I thought Hick's controversial musical posts were a healthy and welcome thing here on BHO. I still believe that, those discussions were lively and had merit. It was all the other stuff, again, a matter of record in the archives, that was the bulls*** that any reasonable person would not want to see here. Anyone on this site doing those things would be booted too. And others have been booted for similar things. This is simply a fact.

My opinion is this thread served its purpose long ago, and it's nothing more that circular arguments at this point. You may not agree, or see that, but that's what I see it. I'm not running from anything.

Edited by - banjoy on 04/11/2024 11:41:35

Mark Douglas - Posted - 04/11/2024:  11:43:32

Thank goodness this thread was not closed due to peer pressure.

Some very important facts are now coming to light.

We need to have faith in and trust the
moderators. Did anyone consider that maybe...just maybe they know what they are doing!

Owen - Posted - 04/11/2024:  12:12:43

I think moderator Bill has previously, and more than once, told us everything we need to know, or at least will be privy to, w.r.t. moderating,  " .... it depends."