Kellie - Posted - 03/17/2024:  12:36:44

Okay, so I've still been tinkering with new techniques so far I haven't been able to find a passage that's not playable with four fingers. Five fingers may be necessary later. I'm thinking of ways to relieve tension as it can be dangerous to the health of the tendons if one doesn't. I've added a strap to my banjo which seems to have done wonders for left hand tension. Right hand tension is still a worry. I'm trying to figure out how to alleviate it. I've also tinkered with dedillo picking which is where you use the same nail that you plucked up with to pluck downward in rapid succession. Just like Farland's tremolo technique but less intensive. It allows you to play very quick runs on one string.

aaronoble - Posted - 03/17/2024:  14:44:00

Fwiw standard single string technique is to alternate thumb and index; it allows for quicker speed and more even cadence. Many also learn to alternate index and middle on the first (and second?) strings.

Kellie - Posted - 03/17/2024:  16:31:00

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Originally posted by aaronoble

Fwiw standard single string technique is to alternate thumb and index; it allows for quicker speed and more even cadence. Many also learn to alternate index and middle on the first (and second?) strings.

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Yeah I practiced that quite a bit mostly because I sucked at it to begin with haha. I've also experimented with middle index thumb middle. I know I'll get faster with the alternating between thumb and index it's just the progress is slow. I feel like I should learn how to adapt to any given situation for any passage that I may write. I am confused what you mean by cadence though.

Edited by - Kellie on 03/17/2024 16:31:30

aaronoble - Posted - 03/17/2024:  16:40:38

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Originally posted by Kellie

 I am confused what you mean by cadence though.

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You should definitely do what works when it works; when I referred to cadence I was just thinking of an even spacing between notes. 

csacwp - Posted - 03/17/2024:  17:11:08

It's good to be able to use both thumb index and middle index. Morley is best known for using the thumb index style of alternate picking, including on the first string. It seems that most American players used middle index on the first string and thumb index on the others. You'll never need to use five right hand fingers (this is a banjo and not a guitar, after all). Thumb + middle + index covers almost everything. Every once in a while, the ring finger is useful when playing full chords. The little finger is never brought into play.

Note that the characteristic classic banjo tone and technique uses no nails (nails tore up gut strings).

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/17/2024:  22:20:23

When tackling a new instrument, people usually want to leverage the skills they already have. What would that be for you - classical guitar?

Kellie - Posted - 03/18/2024:  07:19:23

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

When tackling a new instrument, people usually want to leverage the skills they already have. What would that be for you - classical guitar?

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A bit. More piano though.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/18/2024:  08:01:01

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Originally posted by Kellie

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

When tackling a new instrument, people usually want to leverage the skills they already have. What would that be for you - classical guitar?

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A bit. More piano though.

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Classical guitar and fingerstyle banjo use radically different right-hand techniques.  At least some of what you've learned through careful study and practice on the guitar will turn out to be bad habits impeding your progress on the banjo.  Just being aware that those differences are there will make those roadblocks much easier to recognize and overcome.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 03/18/2024:  08:11:30

FWIW, Alfred Farland did not invent the finger waggle tremolo technique. It became popular in the 1870s.

Kellie - Posted - 03/18/2024:  09:08:12

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

FWIW, Alfred Farland did not invent the finger waggle tremolo technique. It became popular in the 1870s.

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Gotcha. Sorry for the confusion.

Kellie - Posted - 03/18/2024:  10:04:27

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

quote:

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Originally posted by Kellie

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

When tackling a new instrument, people usually want to leverage the skills they already have. What would that be for you - classical guitar?

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A bit. More piano though.

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Classical guitar and fingerstyle banjo use radically different right-hand techniques.  At least some of what you've learned through careful study and practice on the guitar will turn out to be bad habits impeding your progress on the banjo.  Just being aware that those differences are there will make those roadblocks much easier to recognize and overcome.

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I studied piano more than classical guitar. 

Kellie - Posted - 03/18/2024:  10:10:32

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

It's good to be able to use both thumb index and middle index. Morley is best known for using the thumb index style of alternate picking, including on the first string. It seems that most American players used middle index on the first string and thumb index on the others. You'll never need to use five right hand fingers (this is a banjo and not a guitar, after all). Thumb + middle + index covers almost everything. Every once in a while, the ring finger is useful when playing full chords. The little finger is never brought into play.



Note that the characteristic classic banjo tone and technique uses no nails (nails tore up gut strings).

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In classic banjo repertoire, yes. Could be my lack of experience but what I've found is that 3 fingers falls flat with 32nd notes and grace note glissandi. Not that I can play any of this yet, but in theory five fingers with the fingertips rested on the strings can. Not only that it solves the problem of playing staccato. However, like I said I haven't found a real use for this in The passages I write yet as I'm not that experienced a composer at least not as experienced as Liszt was.

Edited by - Kellie on 03/18/2024 10:11:20

csacwp - Posted - 03/18/2024:  10:19:13

With practice, you'll have no problems playing 32nd notes or grace note glissandi using three fingers.



The banjo is a banjo, not a guitar. There is a 150+ year old tradition fingerstyle banjo playing. Since you're just starting out, I'd recommend that you follow the well-trodden path instead of blazing your own trail. There are reasons why classic style right hand technique developed as it did: reasons that you may not be aware of as a beginner.

As for playing staccato, I fail to see how the number of right hand fingers used has any bearing on this. The banjo naturally sounds with little sustain, and with the right attack and muting technique, one can easily play staccato passages using any number of fingers. 

Edited by - csacwp on 03/18/2024 10:20:44

Joel Hooks - Posted - 03/18/2024:  10:52:40

Yeah, totally falls short.

Smiler Rag

Nola

Indian Summer

 

csacwp - Posted - 03/18/2024:  11:47:44

Here's some wonderfully virtuosic playing by Bacon. Three fingers!

m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZZhHXFC...G9sa2E%3D

B19 - Posted - 03/18/2024:  11:58:13

I don't want to pile on but really do want to emphasize agreement. Banjo is still relatively new and is wonderfully free in how you approach it but that is a blessing and a curse. Early on its really impossible to say whether doing something different (adding fingers etc.) is going to help or hinder you in the long run. The prudent approach, even if you don't like traditional banjo applications, is to learn and practice your rolls and Scruggs classics - it will help you develop (and maintain) the tools I think you will want.

That doesn't mean everything else has to wait, but sadly like most classical instruments I think there are no good shortcuts.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/18/2024:  14:16:38

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Originally posted by B19

I don't want to pile on but really do want to emphasize agreement. Banjo is still relatively new and is wonderfully free in how you approach it but that is a blessing and a curse. Early on its really impossible to say whether doing something different (adding fingers etc.) is going to help or hinder you in the long run. The prudent approach, even if you don't like traditional banjo applications, is to learn and practice your rolls and Scruggs classics - it will help you develop (and maintain) the tools I think you will want.



That doesn't mean everything else has to wait, but sadly like most classical instruments I think there are no good shortcuts.

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I agree with this. You're really a piano player but you want to compose for an instrument that you have no facility with. Maybe you should learn the foundational stuff on the banjo first? From the players who started out learning bluegrass you get Bela Fleck, Jens Kruger, John Bullard - these guys are playing Paganini with only three fingers (yes, and finger picks). It's not the only way to go, but their technique lacks nothing. 

 

Bela Fleck

Edited by - Laurence Diehl on 03/18/2024 14:25:15

Kellie - Posted - 03/18/2024:  14:42:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

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Originally posted by B19

I don't want to pile on but really do want to emphasize agreement. Banjo is still relatively new and is wonderfully free in how you approach it but that is a blessing and a curse. Early on its really impossible to say whether doing something different (adding fingers etc.) is going to help or hinder you in the long run. The prudent approach, even if you don't like traditional banjo applications, is to learn and practice your rolls and Scruggs classics - it will help you develop (and maintain) the tools I think you will want.



That doesn't mean everything else has to wait, but sadly like most classical instruments I think there are no good shortcuts.

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I agree with this. You're really a piano player but you want to compose for an instrument that you have no facility with. Maybe you should learn the foundational stuff on the banjo first? From the players who started out learning bluegrass you get Bela Fleck, Jens Kruger, John Bullard - these guys are playing Paganini with only three fingers (yes, and finger picks). It's not the only way to go, but their technique lacks nothing. 

 

Bela Fleck

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Paganini is difficult, yes. I agree there. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel. Just tweaking it if I find limitations. So far haven't found any that require any more than four fingers. However, if a certain technique makes a certain passage easier wouldn't you use it? Isn't that why the banjo's standard tuning is open G? Because it fits the music?

csacwp - Posted - 03/18/2024:  14:56:15

quote:

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Originally posted by Kellie

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

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Originally posted by B19

I don't want to pile on but really do want to emphasize agreement. Banjo is still relatively new and is wonderfully free in how you approach it but that is a blessing and a curse. Early on its really impossible to say whether doing something different (adding fingers etc.) is going to help or hinder you in the long run. The prudent approach, even if you don't like traditional banjo applications, is to learn and practice your rolls and Scruggs classics - it will help you develop (and maintain) the tools I think you will want.



That doesn't mean everything else has to wait, but sadly like most classical instruments I think there are no good shortcuts.

---

I agree with this. You're really a piano player but you want to compose for an instrument that you have no facility with. Maybe you should learn the foundational stuff on the banjo first? From the players who started out learning bluegrass you get Bela Fleck, Jens Kruger, John Bullard - these guys are playing Paganini with only three fingers (yes, and finger picks). It's not the only way to go, but their technique lacks nothing. 

 

Bela Fleck

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Paganini is difficult, yes. I agree there. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel. Just tweaking it if I find limitations. So far haven't found any that require any more than four fingers. However, if a certain technique makes a certain passage easier wouldn't you use it? Isn't that why the banjo's standard tuning is open G? Because it fits the music?

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The banjo's standard tuning is gCGBD, so not quite open G. 

Edited by - csacwp on 03/18/2024 14:56:37

B19 - Posted - 03/18/2024:  14:56:34

My thinking is that you should start with three fingers and take advantage of the combined learning of decades of development that came befote, then carefully consider changes as needed - thats generally what the innovators do in music and elsewhere. If you start taking shortcuts (techniques that make things easier) you risk handicapping your development and developing bad habits. Also you are more likely to get frustrated and quit because you will be going it alone.

Just my 0.02. And not because I'm a traditionalist or want to be a downer, just because I really think it will probably hinder you sooner than later if you don't learn the fundamentals as they exist today.

Kellie - Posted - 03/18/2024:  15:23:48

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

quote:

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Originally posted by Kellie

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

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Originally posted by B19

I don't want to pile on but really do want to emphasize agreement. Banjo is still relatively new and is wonderfully free in how you approach it but that is a blessing and a curse. Early on its really impossible to say whether doing something different (adding fingers etc.) is going to help or hinder you in the long run. The prudent approach, even if you don't like traditional banjo applications, is to learn and practice your rolls and Scruggs classics - it will help you develop (and maintain) the tools I think you will want.



That doesn't mean everything else has to wait, but sadly like most classical instruments I think there are no good shortcuts.

---

I agree with this. You're really a piano player but you want to compose for an instrument that you have no facility with. Maybe you should learn the foundational stuff on the banjo first? From the players who started out learning bluegrass you get Bela Fleck, Jens Kruger, John Bullard - these guys are playing Paganini with only three fingers (yes, and finger picks). It's not the only way to go, but their technique lacks nothing. 

 

Bela Fleck

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Paganini is difficult, yes. I agree there. I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel. Just tweaking it if I find limitations. So far haven't found any that require any more than four fingers. However, if a certain technique makes a certain passage easier wouldn't you use it? Isn't that why the banjo's standard tuning is open G? Because it fits the music?

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The banjo's standard tuning is gCGBD, so not quite open G. 

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Talking about bluegrass and OT not classic.