warailroader - Posted - 02/19/2024:  16:52:47

I've done this blindly for several years but don't understand why. Would some one please explain it to me or direct me to a good place to figure it out. Thanks.

BigFiveChord - Posted - 02/19/2024:  16:56:50

So you can play all of your C-position stuff, but up in D. The same reason you would capo your G stuff up two frets to A.

Personally, I prefer playing in D without a capo. But to each their own. Maybe I should work on my capoed D playing a bit more...

Brian Murphy - Posted - 02/19/2024:  17:03:40

What tuning are you asking about? G, C, Double C?

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/19/2024:  17:10:28

What Jon said.

To which I would add I believe many people learn to play in C without capo before they can play in D without capo. I'd go so far as to say C without capo is generally easier because it's so much like G. Of course, all the open strings in G tuning are safe notes in D, but D is still more of a challenge without capo. At least I think so.

For most of my playing life, I tended to capo two to play in D as if in C. Only since around 2010 -- going on 40 years of playing -- did I start to push myself and play uncapoed D. With or without 5th string spiked to A.

stanleytone - Posted - 02/19/2024:  17:33:28

Since the G chord is part of I-lV-V progression in both keys, G being the IV chord in Key of D without capo, and it Being the V chord when playing in key of D out of C chord position with capo at 2nd fret, i like to determine ,as per song, which way utilizes the G chord the most and go from there.

jdeluke137 - Posted - 02/19/2024:  18:13:38

I play in D capoed and without depending on the song. Typically capo the 5th string at the 7th fret. In a jam I’ll capo because I find I can react more quickly - probably because I would capo regularly when I first started playing in D. Try it both ways.

Gallaher - Posted - 02/19/2024:  18:20:35

Exactly what Gary Bates said. Determine as per song.
I’ve been a fiddler a lot longer than a banjo player and learned claw hammer before Scruggs style. But before all of that I learned to Travis pick guitar.

I have always banjo picked lots of fiddle tunes because I have them in my ear. A vast number of fiddle tunes are in keys of D and A. Therefore, I always just capoed banjo at 2.
But it also seems like many fiddle tunes lay out nicely in C positions….just my experience.

As a total aside: playing finger style guitar does not help banjo picking as much as you’d think.

stanleytone - Posted - 02/19/2024:  18:22:48

Once in a while youll hear a song in D where the banjo is capoed at the 7th fret
I think Eddie Adcock played Matterhorn that way. I think Doug Dillard did it more than most.
And ive heard Ralph Stanley do it. Its an option but i wouldnt over do it

PHJim - Posted - 02/19/2024:  19:06:50

For clawhammer or old time 2 and 3 finger playing, I like Double C, gCGCD, capoed up 2 for tunes in D, and drop C, gCGBD, capoed up 2 for songs in D.

Before arthritis made 3-finger Scruggs style so difficult, I would use an open D, aDF#AD for songs like Reuben's Train.

Edited by - PHJim on 02/19/2024 19:09:22

warailroader - Posted - 02/19/2024:  19:17:49

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Murphy

What tuning are you asking about? G, C, Double C?

---

I'm normally in G.  When something like Cripple Creek comes up I automatically capo to A so that I can play my G licks but still be in A.  When a song like Liberty, Soldier's Joy, St. Anne's Reel etc. I know I can play it in open D but if I want to use my "G" stuff I capo to A and use C's and F and G etc.  But I'm not familiar with enough music theory to know why it works.

Tractor1 - Posted - 02/19/2024:  20:38:09

it depends on the song and how the melody lays out--i do both--I might find a better fingering sequence in one key or the other--the fingers on either hand have favorite ways sometimes

banjoak - Posted - 02/19/2024:  20:43:45

Not sure which you are asking.

No matter the tuning; putting a capo on raises the pitch of all your open strings; as well, all the fretted notes relative to the open string are raised by the same amount. Thus the same fret/finger patterns results in everything being pitched higher. So what ever key you were playing uncapoed pitch is raised by half steps, equal to how many frets higher you place the capo. Just as A is 2 half steps higher than G; D is 2 half steps higher than C.

But perhaps your question is more the initial, how does it work to use open G tuning (gDGBD), to play in the key of C? (to which capo 2 makes D)

Edited by - banjoak on 02/19/2024 20:45:45

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/19/2024:  21:45:32

No capo let's you get that low open D but you have to hold a lot of fingers down on the 1 chord which limits the slides, hammer-ons, etc.



Capo 2 gives you great freedom of finger movement for all the fireworks you might want to throw into an arrangement.

Edited by - mmuussiiccaall on 02/19/2024 21:46:04

carlb - Posted - 02/20/2024:  04:20:30

quote:

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Originally posted by BigFiveChord

Personally, I prefer playing in D without a capo.

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I'll second that.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/20/2024:  07:30:25

It really depends on the particular song, and the feeling you're going for. Playing as if in C--and I'm speaking here about open G tuning--tends to use chord shapes with a major third in them, especially for the root chord. That usually lends a somewhat sweet feel to the music. (Think of Scruggs' version of "Home Sweet Home", or Bill Emerson's "Sweet Dixie".) Sometimes that's entirely appropriate. But if you want a starker feel, or a bluesy/modal sound, uncapo'd D will work better, since you can get away more easily without fingering the full chord shapes. Listen to Ron Block's break in "Man Of Constant Sorrow" (played out of D format, but capo'd up three frets into F).

KCJones - Posted - 02/20/2024:  11:24:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Brian Murphy

What tuning are you asking about? G, C, Double C?

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Does it matter? Seems like the answer would be the same in any tuning. 

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/20/2024:  12:27:39

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

What tuning are you asking about? G, C, Double C?

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Does it matter? Seems like the answer would be the same in any tuning. 

---

Most of the "candy" in music happens between the second and third and fifth and sixth intervals of the scale. Adding in the three flat three flat five and flat seven blue notes, gives you the other variables that are common in American music. Any tuning that gives you easy access to these possibilities is advantageous, that's why you would never tune your instrument to open A flat for example, and try to play in the key of G. Too many barre chords and need to hold down strings, which limits the fluidity of movement.

KCJones - Posted - 02/20/2024:  12:33:31

mmuussiiccaall That's all true, for sure, but I'm not sure how it's relevant to the question.

The question is "why do we capo 2 to play in D", and the answer to that question is "because it lets you use the chords and scales for C". That answer is the same regardless of tuning, so it doesn't matter which tuning OP is asking about.

banjoak - Posted - 02/20/2024:  13:16:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

What tuning are you asking about? G, C, Double C?

---

Does it matter? Seems like the answer would be the same in any tuning. 

---

Most of the "candy" in music happens between the second and third and fifth and sixth intervals of the scale. Adding in the three flat three flat five and flat seven blue notes, gives you the other variables that are common in American music. Any tuning that gives you easy access to these possibilities is advantageous, that's why you would never tune your instrument to open A flat for example, and try to play in the key of G. Too many barre chords and need to hold down strings, which limits the fluidity of movement.

---

I interpreted the question more fundamental music theory question? As his comment states

But I'm not familiar with enough music theory to know why it works.

That is, why putting a capo on 2 works to play in D; or A... perhaps wanting to understand music theory, of how scales and chords work?

To that, IIRC you have created a bunch of pdfs, that might help give visual and explain what's going on and why it works?

Edited by - banjoak on 02/20/2024 13:22:20

PHJim - Posted - 02/20/2024:  17:00:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

What tuning are you asking about? G, C, Double C?

---

Does it matter? Seems like the answer would be the same in any tuning. 

---

I don't understand this comment. 

If I were playing in drop C or double C, I would capo 2.

If I were in open D, I would forget the capo.

Some would capo 7 to play in D in open G tuning.  Some would forgo the capo.  I think I'd capo 2.

PHJim - Posted - 02/22/2024:  19:43:00

warailroader - Posted - 02/24/2024:  10:01:15

I finally stumbled onto a LOTW with John Boulding and he had a very good explanation so I think I've got it now. Thanks to all who put their two cents worth in!!

PHJim - Posted - 03/01/2024:  10:44:59

After messing with this a bit, I think I prefer the no capo option for the key of D in open G tuning. D, G, B and D are all on open and are all part of the DMa scale. Maybe drop the thumb string to F#

If I were to capo II, I'd change to drop C tuning and I'd have a D, A, C# and F# on open strings.

writerrad - Posted - 03/01/2024:  15:04:24

Let me say first  that this is something that confronts us in old time music.

Anyone should do with their banjo what pleases them, their hands, and their ears.



Second fact, the capo was not widely available or widely used by banjoists of people until the late 20th century.



Third observation, many traditional and non-traditional banjoists play the banjo in D tunings such as the Reuben tuning.



Many five string banjos especially traditional players tuned up. I usually keep one of my 6 banjos, usually my Gold Tone WL-250 in a D tuning either double d, or the Reuben tuning. I have a fuller range of playing than with the capo and it is easier to parallel traditional players I like. My recordings. film, and conversation with older banjoists suggests that this was what was done and as a historian and old time musician, I like doing what was done in the past.  That seems to have worked best in the 20 years I have owned that banjo.



This works well on some banjos, like tone ring banjos, but I find some banjos that does not work well.



In the early 2000s I did a study of the pitching of African American other traditional banjo players on the digital library of Appalachia. I discovered there were wide variations of pitching different tunnings. Some banjoists tuned the banjo with their banjos down to E for G. Others tuned their banjos B flat for G. The high pitch should not have been good for the neck.



I do not think it is bad to use a capo, but I like it better tuned up to D with my Gold Tone. Other banjos I own sound better with a capo.



Here, I am talking about playing old time music in a manner that seeks to reproduce what traditional Southern players in general did, and several of the banjoists that I am either studying, or have studied or like.

On the other hand, I know banjoists handicapped by this because they feel it is easier to play capoed up and having a shorter neck who will demand to play C tunes in D so they can capo, or G tunes in A.  They are not going to learn the full advantage of their instrument playing like this.

Consequently, in many old time jams today, dominated by pseudo fiddlers, you can never play a tune in C even though there is a rich history of C fiddle tunes especially from Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana and Texas, and black fiddlers from all over the country.

Whoever said you cannot use C shapes capoed or tuned up to play D is wrong, and someone not to listen to, even if I do not do so when I can avoid it.

Do what suits yourself, but  what works for one person may not be the best for all.

Edited by - writerrad on 03/01/2024 15:15:28

writerrad - Posted - 03/01/2024:  15:30:32

There are really two major discussions for this: bluegrass and old time. My experience is bluegrass players often have a mastery to play in more different keys all out of the G tuning or the drop C (Pete Seeger, really the C tuning) in part because bluegrass is more musically adventurous and developed and actually linked to more developed music in special ways than old time.

Nothing wrong with using a C tuning Capoed to play in D which is apparently what most old time revivalists do. To a certain extent old time revivalist jams are overly dominanted by violin players who fancy themselves fiddlers so that often you are only allowed to play in D or G or A because these folk are often limited.

I guess a true musician such as I could never be would figure out chords for D for a C tuning banjo and not do that. There some old time songs more in the style of folks lke Dock Boggs that I will play in a D related tuning like Dock used. In the old days especially the 19th century the Sebastopol open D tuning was widely used for both folk an parlor banjo and guitar, though it has withered away.

There is something wrong in the old time music world=--because this is where this issue must come from==that a person feels intimidated about capoing up to play C in D.

I dont know if the origina New Lost City Ramblers Song Book that I bought in 1965 is still available. On some of the songs there, they showed how the reproduce the old time record sound they would capo the banjo so many steps and capo the guitar so many steps, and on some recordings with two guitars had guitars capoed to different frets to reproduce the original records.

If it was good enough for them. It should be good enough for you.

Wobba - Posted - 03/01/2024:  16:14:14

I could never figure out why some would change to double C tuning and then capo at the 2nd fret to get two Ds, when the default tuning already has two Ds. Just tune/capo your 5th string to and A and play in the key of D out of standard tuning. I have spikes, so I just spike the 5th string at the 7th fret and I ready to go. Now if you want to play modal, then I'm fine with tuning my 2nd string from B to C. Need to play in the key of C, just use a normal C chord, then F and G.

Strumbody - Posted - 03/02/2024:  05:19:07

I use aDGBD tuning to play songs in D without a capo. I can NOT do the same sorts of hammers and pulloffs I do in G or C, but since I am mostly accompanying my own singing, that's fine. I DO like having the low D open as a bass note.

Not for people who want to do much fancy picking, though. Just my experience as a Folksinger.

5stringjim5 - Posted - 03/02/2024:  10:02:31

Think of the nut as a capo. When tuned to standard G tuning, play something in the key of C close to the nut. Then attach the capo at the 2nd fret and play the same tune again, using the same chord positons/fingering, with the capo taking the place of the nut . You're now playing that same tune in the key of D. You just have to change the 5th string with a capo or railroad spike so it doesn't sound 'off'.

KcBanjer - Posted - 03/02/2024:  13:03:00

I do it so that I can get that beautiful Drop D Note, but it depends onthe tune you are playing.
Just like Drop C tuning only capo'd to D.
To me it's just more Bluesy.

banjoak - Posted - 03/02/2024:  14:07:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wobba

I could never figure out why some would change to double C tuning and then capo at the 2nd fret to get two Ds, when the default tuning already has two Ds. Just tune/capo your 5th string to and A and play in the key of D out of standard tuning. I have spikes, so I just spike the 5th string at the 7th fret and I ready to go. Now if you want to play modal, then I'm fine with tuning my 2nd string from B to C. Need to play in the key of C, just use a normal C chord, then F and G.

---

It's not just about playing individual notes or chord names; but rather in how the key and tuning affects the overall sound; way the tune is played and flows; chord voicing; open string; and efficiency. These multiple options of using tuning and capo; each has unique qualities.

Even for key of G, I often use another tuning.

Pete Wernick - Posted - 03/02/2024:  18:39:26

Sorry to be late to this thread. So much excellent input, only a few bases not covered.

Interesting how 8 or more different tuning configurations have been used for picking banjo in D -- not even counting what our old-time brethren may be doing!

Standard (G) tuning:    1) capo 2 + C chords, ;   2)  no capo + D chords, (5th at A , F#, or F) ;  3) Capo 7 + G chords

Reuben tuning:  open D chord (which changes all chords); 5th string at F# for "Reuben", but usually A

C or Double C tuning  capo 2

That's a lot of choices! As we’ve heard, all have advantages and disadvantages, so may go best with different songs. But -- relevant for gigging...

Quick readiness on stage for different keys sometimes favors minimal use of the tuners, and even the capo. D with 5th at A has a goldmine of possibilities which, when capoed, translate easily to E and F. Many Hot Rize songs are in those keys -- "Nellie Kane", "Untold Stories", "Colleen Malone"....

Some other 5th string choices for D in G tuning are ear-tickling. F# makes some lovely and weird sounds... pretty (“third-y”) with just 1 and 5 chords. And the 4 chord (G ) with F# is dangerous but zesty, a major 7th,  ("Wild Ride" by Hot Rize with a "wild" 4 chord and a flatted 5th on the C chord) ... and there’s also sweet and mellow like "Sally Ann” on my (ancient) first solo record.

And…  with the 5th at F# (the major third) check out some Dm fingerings. Cool blends of major and minor thirds especially with both D strings open.

One more trick: With the 5th at F. that's a minor third in D -- my Dm tune ("Fire Dance” by Flexigrass), mates particularly nicely with a set of up-neck 2-finger chords (F, G. C, Bb).

Deep details of all this are in tab on DrBanjo.com.

All told, it's intriguing to consider the frontiers that our main man Earl never visited. A lot of wonderful music has yet to be created.