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Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 10/10/2023: 04:55:16
I recently put together a pot using the customer's materials and attached it to a used neck the customer had bought from the original owner. I have usually been underwhelmed by Dobson rings, but this one had a nice resonant sound. It was on a Nordic shell rather than a block rim, and since the original neck was for a 12" pot and this one was an 11" the bridge was moved toward the tailpiece further than usual. The customer also had me put in a 1/4" brass tone hoop under the Dobson. I don't know which of these three factors made the difference, but I am planning to make another banjo with these parameters and see if it sounds similar.
Last night while taking a shower it occurred to me that there was no physical reason why it wouldn't be possible to make a Whyte Laydie/Electric style tone ring to fit inside a Dobson on a thin rim, and I wondered what the harvest would be? It could be like putting both milk and lemon in one's tea (though I don't drink tea myself this was the best analogy I could think of) and be very bad, or maybe it would be good in some way. Is anyone aware of this having been tried before?
KCJones - Posted - 10/10/2023: 05:45:28
Moments of genius in the shower. I've often wondered if my shower time is billable, because it seems like the shower is where I solve most of my problems from work.
Bart Reiter had the "dobaphone" and "bacophone" models, which were basically a dobson or bacon on top of a tubaphone. Not exactly what you asked, but maybe relevant. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with a whyte laydie.
My dobaphone sounds absolutely perfect, it's the sound I hear when I imagine an open-back banjo in my head. I bet I tried 100 banjos before finding it, and I knew from the first note it was the one for me. It's the last one Bart ever made and it will never be for sale.
Edited by - KCJones on 10/10/2023 05:46:27
Alvin Conder - Posted - 10/10/2023: 05:49:05
Should work.
Should be interesting.
Key word is “Should”.
Only
One way to find out.
tbchappe - Posted - 10/10/2023: 06:30:00
quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Hoyt
I recently put together a pot using the customer's materials and attached it to a used neck the customer had bought from the original owner. I have usually been underwhelmed by Dobson rings, but this one had a nice resonant sound. It was on a Nordic shell rather than a block rim, and since the original neck was for a 12" pot and this one was an 11" the bridge was moved toward the tailpiece further than usual. The customer also had me put in a 1/4" brass tone hoop under the Dobson. I don't know which of these three factors made the difference, but I am planning to make another banjo with these parameters and see if it sounds similar.
Last night while taking a shower it occurred to me that there was no physical reason why it wouldn't be possible to make a Whyte Laydie/Electric style tone ring to fit inside a Dobson on a thin rim, and I wondered what the harvest would be? It could be like putting both milk and lemon in one's tea (though I don't drink tea myself this was the best analogy I could think of) and be very bad, or maybe it would be good in some way. Is anyone aware of this having been tried before?
Isn't this basicaly one of the things Frd VanEps did on his banjos? I love that the old festival trend for muted banjos is dying. I'm restoring a Tu-Ba-Phone to sell, and a friend already wants it, BADLY, after playing mine. He loves how much more bright, clear, and precise it is compared to his Pisgah with the stamped Dobson tone ring
cevant - Posted - 10/10/2023: 06:38:26
I have a Bart Reiter banjo that has both a Bacon and an Electric tone ring.
dpgetman - Posted - 10/10/2023: 06:41:33
I believe John Balch recorded a good bit of music playing a Reiter with a "hot-rod" tone ring combination of a Whyte Laydie and a Bacon style tone ring, which has a really nice tone to it. I've never seen a Dobson tone ring that did not have a rod under it supporting the ring... but I'm no expert.
The thing I really like about the tone of Dobson tone rings is the kind of nasally curtailing of the sustain, kind of like how getting a cold gives your voice a subdued resonance... The electric or whyte laydie tone ring kind of does the opposite of that, intensifies and prolongs the sustain in this way someone described as "creamy" to me, which I liked. I see how the WL works with the Bacon tone ring, which does not have a negative effect on sustain as far as I can tell. But the WL and the Dobson seem to be potentially counteracting... I really can't wait to hear the combination, please do post your findings!
Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/10/2023: 07:25:05
quote:
Originally posted by tbchappe
quote:
Originally posted by Zachary Hoyt
I recently put together a pot using the customer's materials and attached it to a used neck the customer had bought from the original owner. I have usually been underwhelmed by Dobson rings, but this one had a nice resonant sound. It was on a Nordic shell rather than a block rim, and since the original neck was for a 12" pot and this one was an 11" the bridge was moved toward the tailpiece further than usual. The customer also had me put in a 1/4" brass tone hoop under the Dobson. I don't know which of these three factors made the difference, but I am planning to make another banjo with these parameters and see if it sounds similar.
Last night while taking a shower it occurred to me that there was no physical reason why it wouldn't be possible to make a Whyte Laydie/Electric style tone ring to fit inside a Dobson on a thin rim, and I wondered what the harvest would be? It could be like putting both milk and lemon in one's tea (though I don't drink tea myself this was the best analogy I could think of) and be very bad, or maybe it would be good in some way. Is anyone aware of this having been tried before?
Isn't this basicaly one of the things Frd VanEps did on his banjos? I love that the old festival trend for muted banjos is dying. I'm restoring a Tu-Ba-Phone to sell, and a friend already wants it, BADLY, after playing mine. He loves how much more bright, clear, and precise it is compared to his Pisgah with the stamped Dobson tone ring
No. Van Eps used the ring developed and patented by William Farmer.
patents.google.com/patent/US833517A
He put this in rims of various designs including the standard "nickel rim" and laminated rim with basically the Regent style "ring" as a primary bearing surface (same as the Little Wonder used by Vega in tenor banjos).
His earlier banjos were just the standard nickel rim as was common with most banjos.
Sometime after he started making the aluminum resonator Recording Banjos he started using a laminated maple rim with a rolled flat bar ring as the primary bearing surface with the bowel suspended like the Farmer ring. The later era resonator Recording Banjos used a laminated rim the same as the Farmer ringed banjos with flush fret necks he was making in the 1950s. When electric recording equipment came out he dropped the bowl resonator and just used the ring.
jbalch - Posted - 10/10/2023: 12:49:06
Bart Reiter used Stew-Mac Bacon "donut" tone rings on top of Stew-Mac Whyte Laydie rings for many years. He simply replaced the WL outer sleeve with the Bacon spun donut. He called them "plus" combinations (ie: Bacophone-plus). I first heard of that combo back in the 1990s. I've owned quite a few of them and have even retro-fitted a few Reiter WL banjos that way by adding the Bacon ring.
The sound is somewhere between a WL and a tubaphone. More sustain and brightness than a plain WL. But less than a Tubaphone.
Lots of sound samples on my BHO music page.
Edited by - jbalch on 10/10/2023 13:02:13
dbrooks - Posted - 10/10/2023: 13:13:13
jbalch, I'm glad you chimed in on this discussion. I thought of your "hot rodded" banjos and found a couple of posts by you in the past, but I could not have explained this as fully or as well as you did.
David
Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 10/10/2023: 13:44:21
Thank you all for your help. That's a lot to think about, or maybe I'll just try being Unencumbered by the Thought Process and see what happens. I've never installed a Bacon tone ring, though I see now that Stew-Mac is selling them again. I wonder if they'll bring back the Whyte Laydie at some point.
JBalch, that Reiter in your samples is a very nice sounding banjo, and thank you for the detailed explanation.
BanjoDaddio - Posted - 10/10/2023: 17:19:04
I think I can add a Dobson ring onto this pot. I made it 25 years ago and I’m still working on the neck. I call it:
The Rusnak Ultra TU-BA-LAYDIE Spun Flathead Bell Brass-A-Phone DeLuxe #11
( because 11 is better than 10)
The Dobson ring could added. We have the technology. Back to the Lab.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 10/11/2023: 04:28:36
That one looks amazing!
If you had ball brackets, you could put the head on either side of the pot.
KCJones - Posted - 10/11/2023: 05:39:22
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
That one looks amazing!
If you had ball brackets, you could put the head on either side of the pot.
Or run double ended J-hooks with a turn-buckle and have a head on each side. Wouldn't that be something?
Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 10/11/2023: 06:07:56
If one side was a clear head it would be neat to have two heads. It would be too bad to cover up all that shiny metal on the inside so it couldn't be seen. The idea reminds me of the two headed monster from Sesame Street.
dpgetman - Posted - 10/11/2023: 07:04:47
quote:
Originally posted by BanjoDaddio
The Dobson ring could added. We have the technology.
I'm dying...
Ken LeVan - Posted - 10/11/2023: 07:53:36
quote:
Originally posted by KCJones
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
That one looks amazing!
If you had ball brackets, you could put the head on either side of the pot.
Or run double ended J-hooks with a turn-buckle and have a head on each side. Wouldn't that be something?
It would truly be something!! You could also put a snare on the bottom.
BanjoDaddio - Posted - 10/11/2023: 11:11:05
Great suggestions. It’s over kill but what the heck. Why not. I could also ADD ball end nuts between the two pointed Vega style shoes for a clear head. Great idea. really cool! Hummmmm?
My initial plan was to add a spin off one piece flamed maple resonator ( Vega style) but not pie segments like Vega… I’ll post any progress.
martyjoe - Posted - 10/11/2023: 11:13:36
Run another neck out the upside down out below the tailpiece so you can flip it over and have a Siamese banjo. That would be a pretty cool trick if you’re ambidextrous.
Helix - Posted - 10/11/2023: 11:28:00
Two heads are better than one
It would need a hole to let the pressure off
Now who here doesn’t need a hole in their head?
Otherwise, a fine innovated heritage build
Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 11/30/2023: 16:51:42
I finally got the experimental banjo with the WL/Electric under the Dobson put together and made a video. I'm not sure how to describe the sound, but it does sound like a banjo.
https://youtu.be/HpJjGtjzSFA
