Bill Rogers - Posted - 07/22/2023:  15:37:35

I like banjos with a scalloped “Electric” style (aka “Whyte Laydie”) ring, and I prefer it to be in a 1/2” or thinner shell, not buried by a 3.4” Mastertone-thickness one.

I know there are many different preferences among old-time players. What’s yours?

I understand other things affect tone and overall sound, but I’m interested here particularly in tone rings or absence of same.

Culloden - Posted - 07/22/2023:  15:47:36

It's interesting how the thickness of the rim can make so much difference with a Whyte Laydie tone ring. My Whyte Laydie with a 3/4" rim has a very piercing tone for bluegrass, yet the same tone ring on a 3/8" rim sounds soft and mellow for old time music.

TreyDBanjoKS - Posted - 07/22/2023:  15:50:05

+1 for Electric/Whyte Laydie ring. Love my 1921 Whyte Laydie with 11 & 15/16" rim, extremely versatile banjo with great tone and projection. Every way I've set it up sounds great, from frosted remo to skin head, Kershner or No-Knot tailpiece, medium/light steel or nylon strings, you can't go wrong with a Whyte Laydie banjo.

-TD

paco0909 - Posted - 07/22/2023:  16:14:15

I have a Whyte layde on one banjo and a Dobson on the other. Both with tight skin heads. Both sound exactly the way I like. It’s a good question!

banjered - Posted - 07/22/2023:  16:59:37

I used to think that WLs were harsh/crashy, hard to explain. Now I think they are the best or at least way up there in tone for old time banjo. Is it the thinner rim or the bracket band that captures that WL sound? Both together? To my ears it was Bart Reiter WLs that sounded so harsh but now days I realize now how critical set-up is. Bart always had the very thick rim banjos, not sure if that is why I don't care for them. Or, maybe there are some great sounding Bart WLs that I just haven't heard yet. I see Pisgah offering WLs but I need to hear one live to hear if they got that WL sound without the bracket. Right now I have a wood rim Stone banjo with Minstrel Nyguts on it to back up my singing and I think it sounds great and often get compliments on how sweet/mellow it sounds. Sure would like to have a WL but it seems like a gamble off the internet since they don't always have that delicious WL sound. banjered

jduke - Posted - 07/22/2023:  18:15:01

I have had many newer banjos with the Whyte Laydie tone rings, thick or thin rims, they all had their qualities.
Then I got my 1911 Vega WL and I've never looked back. It's set up with Nylon strings on a not very tight hide head.

dornan - Posted - 07/22/2023:  19:50:34

Now maybe my ear is not sophisticated enough. I have 4 banjos. A clifford essex Concert Grand, A C.E. Popular, A Cedar Mountain and an Ome North Star with Resonator. I love them all and never disappointed with any. If I was forced to keep only one, it would be the Ome.

Bill H - Posted - 07/23/2023:  06:53:23

My main claw hammer players in order of preference are: 1924 Tubaphone 11 1/2 pot, 1898 Fairbanks Eletric 11 1/2 clad pot, 1926 Vega Senator, 1974 Vega-Martin VIP.

Claude Grassley - Posted - 07/23/2023:  10:53:18

My Gold Tone OT-800-LN has a Tubaphone and I like the way it sounds. Bright. Awfully heavy though.
My 1961 Ode long neck just has an aluminum pot (no tone ring) and it sounds similar but has a definite "ring" to it.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/23/2023:  17:51:39

Dobson unplated brass tone ring on a 1/2" thick 12" maple rim.

Paul R - Posted - 07/24/2023:  09:44:15

I've always liked, though never owned, banjos with Whyte Laydie tone rings. However, my Jake Neufeld with a Masterclone ring sounded fine - too bad I got rid of it circa 1978. I found another (ironically, made in '78) at the Twelfth Fret four years ago and am having fun with it. It has a thick, heavy rim. Someone describd the Masterclone ring as "a poor man's Tu-Ba-Phone". Someone else said that, when I said that the Tu-Ba-Phone ring was harsh sounding, the one I tried wasn't a real T ring, but a modern replica - there's a difference. Then he handed me his banjo - he was right.

My arch top resonator banjo has a nice tone set up for clawhammer playing.

I do find quite a difference in tone between a banjo played solo vs. played with other instruments.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 07/24/2023:  11:03:56

I found my 11" Ramsey "Fairbanks Electric" to be "crashy"----in my hands. I wish now that I had kept it and perhaps refined my technique, but when I moved to the 12" Woody I was much happier, and later added a 12"Tradesman. So I'm happy with no tone ring but do not really have enough experience with different banjos to know. Do like the Dobsons that I have played. I have played a Tubaphone that I did not care for, so maybe the brighter rings are not for me.

paulhealey - Posted - 07/25/2023:  06:32:43

For me, I like a Vega tubaphone. I prefer the small pot to the large one.

If I am playing a 12” banjo, I like just a plain old brass ring.

I also really like listening to other people play Dobsons. For some reason I don’t like how I sound on one but like how others do.

BTuno - Posted - 07/26/2023:  08:38:06

1924 Vega M Tubaphone, 11 15/16" rim, with a tight fyberskin head. Its a powerful combo. I usually play with at least 2 fiddlers, so appreciate that power. My 1918 Vega WL with a 10 3/4 rim, skin head also projects well, but not with the same presence.

OldPappy - Posted - 07/26/2023:  20:14:51

Most of the banjos I have built were fitted with a tone ring similar to a WL, having a scalloped truss supporting a rolled brass hoop, just without the skirt.

Making that tone ring takes a whole day of work, and requires careful fitting to the rim.

The last few banjos I have built were fitted with an un-plated Dobson style tone ring from Balsam, mounted on a thin rim.

One of those banjos has become my daily player. It has a very thin rim (about 5/16") which is a Turkish hand drum shell, and is a very light weight banjo which still has a lot of punch. I like it especially for carrying around at festivals.

Dwight Diller liked that banjo so much he played it all week at Clifftop one year and wouldn't give it back until I made one for him, which is now in the hands of his grandson.

I made another using a Dobson style tone ring sitting on a 5/8" black walnut rim with a top made of Paduk (very hard wood) which I turned just like I would make a wooden tone ring so it had a round bead on top for the Dobson to sit on. That banjo was described by Diller in a video of him playing it as having a lot of "Bark". I had intended to keep that one, but someone who saw the video made me an offer I could not refuse.

banjopaolo - Posted - 08/05/2023:  06:57:27

I play 2 banjos (tenor and 5str) crafted here in Italy by Silvio Ferretti, they both have a Tony Pass rim with integral wooden tone ring, I love the tone of these instruments!

rvrose - Posted - 08/05/2023:  23:04:23

Some of the guys in our band wanted to play some melancholy poignant tunes with an old timey melody like Ashokan Farewell or All My Tears. Since I'm a Scruggs style player on a Stelling, I generally set out on it. Earlier this year I decided to try to get an open back with an old timey sound. I bought a Windrose 12" with a woody tone ring. It is prefect to roll along with those songs with just the sound I was looking for.

Rick

mikehalloran - Posted - 08/15/2023:  21:27:06

I have/had all sorts. If I went with just one, it would be the late '20s  Vegaphone with a Bart Reiter neck. 10 15/16" Professional size with a Tubaphone ring.

The Little Wonder rings in Regents and Senators can bark louder than my Tubaphones but they're not as bright.

Nothing wrong with a flathead aluminum ODE. Mine sounds a lot more like my Pete Seeger than it should but a touch louder and not quite as bright. Surprised me when I A/B'd the two and found that the ODE was louder.

1/4" round rings don't get that much respect but a friend of mine had a Gibson RB-170 that made me take notice. I can always tell when I hear a recording made on my Fender Allegro long neck and I kick myself for selling it.

My 10 3/4" Imperial Electrics never did anything for me. I sold the 5 string not long after I got it and strung the plectrum as an octave mandolin for Celtic playing. The 26" scale felt much nicer to me,

Right now, my recording banjo has a spunover Gatcomb pot (as far as anyone can tell) with an old lefty long neck that may date back to the earliest days of ODE.

Last week, I checked out that Epiphone EB-188 Plantation at Gryphon Strings. I was expecting to dislike that flathead Mastertone ring on that too-deep rim — but I didn't. Sure wish I played well enough since my stroke to justify bringing that home with me. I didn't expect that at all.

I've sold a few RK woodie open backs as a dealer. Nice but not my cuppa tea.

I've never seen an 11 15/16" Vega pot — plenty of 11 13/16", of course.

Edited by - mikehalloran on 08/15/2023 21:38:49

rcc56 - Posted - 08/15/2023:  22:11:54

My keeper is a plain model Fairbanks/Vega made Bacon Professional with a Bacon "donut" ring and a 13/32" thick rim. I did spend some time with a fancier model, but the plain one speaks easier.

Edited by - rcc56 on 08/15/2023 22:14:33

hbick2 - Posted - 08/18/2023:  10:42:08

Most of the modern banjos termed ‘Whyte Laydie’ are not, in fact, Whyte Laydies. They are actually more like the later Imperial Electrics. When the Whyte Laydie came out in 1901, the distinguishing feature was not the tone ring but the bracket band. The tone ring was essentially  an Electric tone ring, albeit a fairly short one. The bracket band, which is a pretty substantial piece of metal, held the brackets without having to drill holes through the rim. This was unlike any previous Fairbanks banjos. If you look inside the rim of a Whyte Laydie, or a Tubaphone, it should be perfectly smooth. If you see hex bolts it is something else.

The Fairbanks Electric banjos came in all sorts of configurations. There was quite a bit of variation in the height of the tone rings and the diameter of the heads. Some tone rings were very tall and some very short. Most of the time the Electric tone rings pointed up. In some cases, however, the tone rings pointed down. These tone rings were constructed quite differently than the ones that pointed up. Some of the shells were fully spun, some were half spun. All of this led to a wide variety of tone in the Electric banjos.

I love the Whyte Laydie and Tubaphone banjos because of their tone and power. They are great for playing on stage with a band or in a jam session. The Electrics, however, are in a class of their own. They all play and sound differently. Probably my favorite is a 10 3/4” Special Electric  No. 1 from around 1899 with a calfskin head and steel strings. It has an incredibly sweet sound. From the picture below, you can see how tall the tone ring is. There is also a picture of the inside of a Whyte Laydie to show the differrence.

Whyte Laydie No. 7 #22819

Special Electric No. 1 #18662

hurdy_gurdyman - Posted - 08/26/2023:  09:51:07

I have both a 11 13/16 1923 Vega Tubaphone and a 12 inch Sanderson custom built to my specs. The Sanderson has a 3/8 inch cherry pot with a rounded over rosewood tone ring. I much prefer this over the Tubaphone. The Sanderson has a mellow plunky sound that still carries well. I have to tone down the Tubaphone quite a bit.

Dave

ObsidianSpike - Posted - 08/26/2023:  11:44:26

I like the exuberant sound of a Tubaphone, especially tuned down low. Those low notes have a rich growl. The metallic growl and sparkling tone of the Gold Tone OT-800LN below may not appeal to everyone but this rendition of Darling Corey from Matthew Mackenzie is what sold me on that banjo and the Tubaphone sound years ago.  As of late I find myself picking over the neck for a more subdued, plunky sound but it's still got that nice sparkle on the high notes. The volume and response just tickle me, I feel like I could just conjure up a storm with it in my hands. I really only stuff the pot every now and then to save my neighbors some hell. 

I recently got a 70s Alvarez Masterclone (the price was unbeatable) and was shocked to find I really liked the sound of clawhammer on a flathead ring too. It's got great note separation with a bright, percussive voice. If I could remove the resonator flange without needing to install new bracket shoes I'd happily play it open and as often as my long neck.

I'm definitely team tone ring, but I do enjoy listening to the more mellow sounds of a no-ring, wood ring or simple brass hoop. If they're all banjos they're all good.

Edited by - ObsidianSpike on 08/26/2023 11:45:21

VIDEO: Darlin' Corey on my Gold Tone long neck open back banjo
(click to view)

 

GrahamHawker - Posted - 08/26/2023:  11:55:39

I always liked my banjos with white laydie style rings. A Gretsch aka as a Goldtone MM150/WL150 and Grafton no. 4 which is a true white laydie with bracket band. And then of course my Clifford Essex Special XX and nylon strings. I haven't got a tubaphone banjo yet although I have a slightly odd tubaphone ring with a tiny sleeve which I'm using to put together a bits and pieces banjo.



However my current favourite has a brass flathead tone ring. I bought a decent Chinese masterclone for a little over £100 from the instrument distributors seconds department because it was "broken" - actually the resonator had a crack. I put on a scrubbed fiberskin to tone it done along with my usual heavier bridge and it sounds nothing like a flathead banjo with the resonator removed. In fact it sounds rather lovely.

Of course there's a whole variety of woodies with nice rims and various wooden tone rings to try which I never will.

Edited by - GrahamHawker on 08/26/2023 11:57:25

Pomeroy - Posted - 08/27/2023:  06:18:21

I've owned banjos with a variety of tone rings. There seems to have been a natural selection taken place here as all my keepers have a simple brass ring.

But that's a very subjective thing. We all prefer different sounds.

hbick2 - Posted - 08/27/2023:  08:16:38

Although I prefer banjos with tone rings, I think most banjos can sound decent if set up correctly. I think the most important factor in the sound of a banjo is the head. My motto is "when in doubt, loosen the head". I often give this advice but sometimes I fail to take it myself. I've had numerous banjos brought to me that sounded terrible. All I did was loosen the head and they sounded great. If you can't depress the head slightly by pushing down with your thumbs, it is too tight.

A few days ago, I did that to one of my banjos that I've never really cared to play much. It is a Fairbanks Imperial Electric No. 1 with an inverted tone ring from around 1900 (see picture below). It's actually a Fred Martin branded Fairbanks. It has a calfskin head and steel strings. It has always sounded a little bit too harsh for me. I loosened the head about a quarter turn on each nut and it just opened up. It's still bright, but it's warm at the same time.

For those of you who aren't real comfortable working on your banjo, don't ever be afraid to loosen or tighten the head. It's not going to explode although I did repair an old Dobson that had been tightened so much it split the rim. It is a simple adjustment that can make dramatic changes to the sound. Before the advent of plastic heads, all banjo players did this as the humidity varied. When I loosen a head I start at one side of the neck and go around in a circle. I back off each nut until I feel it loosen and then I tighten it just enough that I can feel it engage. Sometimes when you tighten a nut it loosens the ones on either side. You may have to retighten both of them slightly. Once you've done it enough times you get a feel for it and it becomes real easy. If you need to use a drum dial, or a dime or tune to a note, that's fine, but don't let that be the deciding factor in the tightness of your head. That's what your ears are for.

I think we have a natural tendency to keep on tightening a head. It's like playing in a band. The band always speeds up, it never slows down. Give it a try and see if you like it. You can always tighten it back up.

Sometimes, too, the head itself can be the cause of the problem. Heads wear out. Sometimes the head breaks under the stretcher band, where you can't see it. Sometimes calfskin heads are simply too old and worn out to sound good. Sometimes calfskin heads aren't very good to start with. Unlike when I started working on banjos, there are now a variety of choices in plastic heads. The type of head we choose can have a dramatic effect on the sound. Sometimes we choose wrong. It all goes to show you that sometimes, no matter how hard you try, it's difficult to get "a-HEAD" in this world.

Inverted Electric

 

Eric A - Posted - 08/27/2023:  09:28:36

I have banjos with Electric/WL rings, some with 1/4" brass hoops, and some woodies. Rim thicknesses range from 3/4" down to about 7/16".  I guess my setup skills have advanced to the point where I can make them all sound pleasing to my ear. I have a soft spot for the WL's, however.



I had one banjo with a tubaphone type ring. It's a different critter, with a distinctive sound. Not for me though.



I've also had a big old flathead. The weight is a factor. I grumbled every time I picked it up. So down the road it went.

Edited by - Eric A on 08/27/2023 09:30:32

Helix - Posted - 08/28/2023:  12:44:49

Rolled brass flatbar because it makes a sandwich of the tone ring and tension hoop with the head in between. Twice the joy

Helix Jackrabbit #001 Bamboo neck and rim

 

ceemonster - Posted - 09/09/2023:  19:10:20

I never met a 12-inch with a rolled brass ring that I didn't love. But I'm also a big fan of the Whyte Laydie/Electric ring. For that matter, I also like the Bacon donut and the "tubby" Tubaphone. I do like the tone of a 12-inch deep-pot woodie, but at the end of the day a metallic shimmer seems to be what calls.

Edited by - ceemonster on 09/09/2023 19:10:48