NormanClegg - Posted - 05/21/2023:  11:44:52

Please forgive my ignorance because I'm new to all this. Can someone tell me what the difference in having a wooden tone ring and just a rim/pot without a tone ring is? I guess what I don't get is what makes that piece of wood a tone ring when the whole pot is made of wood anyway. I don't know any of the technical aspects of banjos, just curious, thanks!

Eric A - Posted - 05/21/2023:  11:56:33

That's an excellent question. Maybe the diffentiation arose as some folks wanted to remove that 3 pounds of brass out of their otherwise very nice banjo and put in a hard wood of the same shape, no modifications, etc.  And be able to swap back and forth?



I actually know nothing, just spit balling here.

Edited by - Eric A on 05/21/2023 11:58:06

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 05/21/2023:  12:23:32

Usually the rims that are designed as “woodies” from inception will have the tone ring area built up and turned at building time.
A woodie tone ring is just made to replace an existing brass ring ,usually for weight savings.

Culloden - Posted - 05/21/2023:  12:54:49

A wooden tone ring can be made out of a different wood than the rim. Some people can make them to slip on and off the rim, some just add a separate piece of wood to the rim and lathe turn it to shape so that it's permanently attached to the rim. Mark Hickler who is a member here does the latter.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 05/21/2023:  12:58:24

Where does a beveled rim become a tone ring? It's a matter of semantics.

If the "tone ring" is just the top tier of a block rim turned to be a head bearing, it's not any different than any rim turned on the top to make a head bearing, which does not qualify as a tone ring. Some people make that top layer out of harder wood or some wood that has a ringing quality, and that has more merit as a tone ring.

Making a separate part for the tone ring that is not glued solidly as part of the rim allows it to be engineered in some way, maybe skirted, and is a different thing.

martyjoe - Posted - 05/21/2023:  17:02:27

Here’s one of my tone rings taken from top & bottom & on a rim

 

rvrose - Posted - 05/21/2023:  23:19:29

As mentioned the woody's are lighter but they also have a muted milder tone than a heavy brass ring. My rim is cherry and the ring is rosewood.

Rick

martyjoe - Posted - 05/22/2023:  04:51:00

Here’s a tone ring for a current build. This ring gives a tone as bright & snappy as any brass ring. 

Edited by - martyjoe on 05/22/2023 04:53:33

 

Ken LeVan - Posted - 05/22/2023:  05:31:07

To paraphrase what David Politzer has written (and you can read his papers on the subject), wood is a relatively spongy material compared to metal and hard stiff materials, so a wood head bearing surface / rim will damp and "suck away"  vibrational energy from the head, which is the primary sound producer in a banjo.  The same thing happens if the rim is too flexible—you want the energy to remain in the head (of course it invariably goes up and down the neck via the strings).

Putting a much harder denser material like metal on top of the rim  works along with the head as opposed to against it.  vitreous dense woods like padauk, rosewood, etc, used for marimba bars as well as other dense woods have a somewhat similar effect and impart different tone color.  It's better (in my experience) if they are not glued to the rim but are "uncoupled" like the metal ones, giving them more freedom to do their thing.  Also, the tone ring ought to have a good proportion to the rim mass-wise —in other words, don't put a wimpy wood tone ring on a big rim and let the rim kill the effect of the tone ring.

The other kind of tone ring is one that acts as a stiffening flange. Of course cast bronze ones do that—Gibson Stelling, etc, but lighter brass ones like the  Bacon and Dobson types extend in beyond the inside of the rim and are very effective stiffeners, especially with thin rims. They also provide a very rigid head bearing.

A properly designed pot with a wood tone ring can make a banjo with a sound very similar to a metal one, with less overtones.  A lot depends on what kind of music you are playing, and the geometry of the pot is important.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 05/22/2023:  05:54:34

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken LeVan

To paraphrase what David Politzer has written (and you can read his papers on the subject), wood is a relatively spongy material compared to metal and hard stiff materials, so a wood head bearing surface / rim will damp and "suck away"  vibrational energy from the head, which is the primary sound producer in a banjo.  The same thing happens if the rim is too flexible—you want the energy to remain in the head (of course it invariably goes up and down the neck via the strings).

Putting a "tone ring" made from a much harder denser material like metal on top of the rim  works along with the head as opposed to against it.  vitreous dense woods like padauk, rosewood, etc, used for marimba bars as well as other dense woods have a somewhat similar effect and impart different tone color.  It's better (in my experience) if they are not glued to the rim but are "uncoupled" like the metal ones, giving them more freedom to do their thing.  Also, the tone ring ought to have a good proportion to the rim mass-wise —in other words, don't put a wimpy wood tone ring on a big rim and let the rim kill the effect of the tone ring.

The other kind of tone ring is one that acts as a stiffening flange. Of course cast bronze ones do that—Gibson Stelling, etc, but lighter brass ones like the  Bacon and Dobson types extend in beyond the inside of the rim and are very effective stiffeners, especially with thin rims. They also provide a very rigid head bearing.

A properly designed pot with a wood tone ring can make a banjo with a sound very similar to a metal one, with less overtones.  A lot depends on what kind of music you are playing, and the geometry of the pot is important.

---

YWGbanjo - Posted - 05/22/2023:  06:42:51

Here is a laminated rim built with an attached top tier of jatoba blocks. I’d call this an integral tone ring since it isn’t it isn’t removable. It’s light weight and it sounds good.

 

calicoplayer - Posted - 05/22/2023:  07:01:29

Deering Banjos has an option for a wooden tone ring made of Grenadillo wood, a cousin of Rosewood, very hard, and an excellent tone ring. It is also used for marimbas and clarinets, as well as for the back and sides of high-end acoustic guitars. It is standard on their John Hartford model, and a custom option on many of their other models.

Many of John Hartford's recordings were done with a Grenadillo-equipped tone ring; a very distinctive sound. Take a listen to some of his recordings to get a sense of how a Grenadillo tone ring sounds.

Pick-A-Lick - Posted - 05/22/2023:  07:12:50

In addition to the good information given, here are some videos that will help explain the issue.

youtube.com/watch?v=k9Jep4TAJLk

youtube.com/watch?v=nKavq7aKz9Y

youtube.com/watch?v=-3oScgNPRyc

martyjoe - Posted - 05/22/2023:  07:38:39

Here’s a new flavor of tone ring. This is an archtop woody tone ring for the larger 12” pot. This one is in its raw state it hasn’t received any sanding & shaping to the outside surfaces. It is very thick, you could almost call it an internal tone rim. I have only actually installed one into a banjo so far & that banjo has a 14mil 2ply head so the sample is too small to make any comment on the specific sound of the tone ring but what I can say is that it gives the banjo more sustain. The diameter of the vibrating head goes down from 11 3/4” to 10 1/4”compared to the flat top version. This one is destined to go into the next 5 string & will very likely have a 7mil head.

Edited by - martyjoe on 05/22/2023 07:44:18

pappy c - Posted - 05/22/2023:  10:17:27

Just had John Boulding put one of his wood rings in my Huber Granada to save some weight. Changed the tone a bit but still great bluegrass sound and power. It is an aged maple ring that basically replaced the regular ring, just made of maple instead of brass. I am very pleased with the result. I was not sure how it would turn out but thought I would give it a try. For me it was the right move. Most people would not know the difference, including some banjo players.

Ks_5-picker - Posted - 05/22/2023:  10:39:10

I once had a parts banjo put together with Asian parts and a Tony Pass birch woody flathead rim.
There was nothing muted about that one. I think it had a five star head.
I once tuned it to double C and handed it to Sammy Shelor to get his thoughts. I knew he liked that tuning and he played a couple tunes and remarked “ that’s a good banjo!”

Helix - Posted - 05/29/2023:  05:26:42

Please notice some banjos are all wood without a metal or glass or other responsive material on top, just wood.

Please note that many and most bridges have a hardwood top, but many bridges especially civil war and other eras don't use a hardwood top at all. Bart Veerman comes to mind.

My opinion is that the hardwood topped bridges and rims give a little "jolt" to the signal.

I personally don't care what blackboard math says about this.

Your ears could hear a little more incitement of your heart, or excitement, literally since I know of a person doing HARP therapy in various living situations for our elders. She uses individual strings on the harp to "call" different people based upon what they may tell her about themselves. Then she has many different choices to match the vibrations of so many paths to the same goal.

I think we should be careful of adding too much Exotic and hard to re-grow foreign and imported hardwoods just to satisfy a certain populations' apparent needs and desire. Peacock tongues at Roman feasts come to mind.

The Walnut burl used only in older Jaguars for dashboards and door trim. Also the massive exotic panels I've seen on This Old House used to decorate the back of the Cockpits of small private jets. Kissing ass should not involve anything but human lips not the very best and finest of the Sissoo Rosewood Heart wood just to get the finest looking grains. At least there is a veteran in Phoenix who saws up downed trees to get those fine looking table tops.

Plant some trees. I may sound redneck, but it ain't too redneck to plant some trees. :)

Helix - Posted - 05/29/2023:  05:29:44

If John Boulding is using Maple, then good on him. Maple is a fine exciter.

martyjoe looks like he's using perhaps Bamboo which would excite me personally.  Good on him, too.

Edited by - Helix on 05/29/2023 05:32:52

Paulf - Posted - 05/29/2023:  05:39:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by pappy c

Just had John Boulding put one of his wood rings in my Huber Granada to save some weight. Changed the tone a bit but still great bluegrass sound and power. It is an aged maple ring that basically replaced the regular ring, just made of maple instead of brass. I am very pleased with the result. I was not sure how it would turn out but thought I would give it a try. For me it was the right move. Most people would not know the difference, including some banjo players.

---

John is a great craftsman and luthier.  It is a shame he doesn't post anymore.

Paul

Ken LeVan - Posted - 05/29/2023:  06:03:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paulf

quote:

---

Originally posted by pappy c

Just had John Boulding put one of his wood rings in my Huber Granada to save some weight. Changed the tone a bit but still great bluegrass sound and power. It is an aged maple ring that basically replaced the regular ring, just made of maple instead of brass. I am very pleased with the result. I was not sure how it would turn out but thought I would give it a try. For me it was the right move. Most people would not know the difference, including some banjo players.

---

John is a great craftsman and luthier.  It is a shame he doesn't post anymore.

Paul

---

John is great!  I miss him as well.  I often quoted his "tarpit of subjectivity" line—still do.

He's one of the talented people who got tired of the trolling and petty snarks and "retired" from the BHO.

Helix - Posted - 05/31/2023:  14:07:07

Well, wooden tone rings is the subject.

John Boulding is one great banjo player.

banjonz - Posted - 05/31/2023:  20:44:28

Last month I was up country visiting my only sister. On the way back I called into see a friend who makes banjo. One of the ones had a Mastertone style ring made of walnut. Not only as the 'jo significantly lighter but the sound was impressive.
It had the punch and the sustain of a metal ring.

Helix - Posted - 06/01/2023:  06:38:34

banjonz Thank you for hearing that.



One thing people never seem to take into consideration is that bronze, brass, bell bronze, steel, carbon fiber or aluminum many never change.

People learned real fast Mountain Bike racing with tempered aluminum frames was fatiguing the rider, where Chromoly steel is more springy, hopping rocks is one thing, jumping springy induces more skill and enjoyment.



Wood however in my experienced opinion vintages with playing. So the sound should get better and better given the type of wood used in the rim cap and the frequency of play. Maybe the most expensive exotic isn't the best rim cap.



The Maple remembers what the silver forgets.  Like a friend here asked, "Is it whiskey or is it good whiskey?"

Edited by - Helix on 06/01/2023 06:42:16

link-o-sausages - Posted - 06/01/2023:  16:31:31

I did some gourd banjos with grenadillo and Jatoba tops. I didn’t have the bravado to call them tone rings though they completely changed the sound of the banjo to a very chimed ring instead of the standard Low smooth growl that they usually make. More blue grassy than minstrel.

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 06/17/2023:  05:29:48

Fwiw...

Years ago..

I had a project idea if a wood arch top banjo..made of iron wood.

Member Dickinorwich..turned it for me..

He used pruple heart wood for the rim..

N.. iron wood for the ring..

Dick came up with the idea to ..bake..the resin..out if the iron wood..before glueing n the turning of it...



Long n short of it..

He demonstraited it at a jam.. after it was compleated..

Without telling the other players there..

At the end of the jam..



All were shocked to find out that it did not have a brass tone ring...

N..many had to inspect it to beleave it...



I still have ..n..still play it..

Edited by - STUD figmo Al on 06/17/2023 05:31:03

Ken LeVan - Posted - 06/17/2023:  10:02:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by STUD figmo Al

Fwiw...

Years ago..

I had a project idea if a wood arch top banjo..made of iron wood.

Member Dickinorwich..turned it for me..

He used pruple heart wood for the rim..

N.. iron wood for the ring..

Dick came up with the idea to ..bake..the resin..out if the iron wood..before glueing n the turning of it...



Long n short of it..

He demonstraited it at a jam.. after it was compleated..

Without telling the other players there..

At the end of the jam..



All were shocked to find out that it did not have a brass tone ring...

N..many had to inspect it to beleave it...



I still have ..n..still play it..

---

Dick did a lot of interesting things. He was really interested in baking wood and turned me on to baked ipe years back, which I still use for tone rings and fingerboards.  after he stopped baking stuff, I got my own oven and now bake it myself.

One of the great things about Dick is that he would not become enamored with some idea and "fall in love" with his own work—a trap artists and craftspeople often fall in to. He was always out there ready to try something new.

He lost interest in banjos but was forging knives and is now turning bowls—always learning something new.

martyjoe - Posted - 06/17/2023:  10:35:29

Here’s a couple of woodie tone rings I’m working on today. One arch top & one flat top, both are for 12” pots. You can see the sound chamber between them & the rim

Ken LeVan - Posted - 06/17/2023:  14:01:57

That's very interesting, Marty—the tone ring inner skirt becomes an internal resonator—great idea!