dsalling - Posted - 01/22/2023:  03:26:37

I have a Deering Goodtime open back banjo and am looking to purchase a fretless cello or minstrel banjo. I’ve listened to some recordings of each but still can’t quite figure out the differences between the two.

csacwp - Posted - 01/22/2023:  04:50:20

The cello banjo was originally conceived of by SS Stewart for use in banjo orchestras. Orher makers offered them as well. They tend to have 15" to 18" rims and were played with the fingers, classic style. I don't know of a any original examples that are fretless. The modern Gold Tone cello banjos are based off of a 20th century Gibson pattern that is smaller and was meant to be played with a plectrum, not the fingers (the original Gibsons were 4-strings).



"Minstrel banjo" is a meaningless term used by some to describe early banjos - not all of which were used by minstrels. More careful collectors and scholars call them "early banjos" and reserve "minstrel banjo" for professional grade instruments or instruments with known minstrel provenance.

Edited by - csacwp on 01/22/2023 04:51:06

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 01/22/2023:  05:52:28

"Minstrel Banjo" isn't an entirely useless term, as it makes most informed people immediately imagine a Boucher or Stitcher style banjo. That said, I prefer to avoid the continued association of the banjo with the minstrel shows and terms like "early banjo" or even "Boucher/ Stitcher/ tackhead" are plenty adequate.

The problem for me is that I hear "minstrel banjo" and I also think of blackface, Jim Crow, and Zip Coon.

csacwp - Posted - 01/22/2023:  06:14:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Nic Pennsylvania

"Minstrel Banjo" isn't an entirely useless term, as it makes most informed people immediately imagine a Boucher or Stitcher style banjo. That said, I prefer to avoid the continued association of the banjo with the minstrel shows and terms like "early banjo" or even "Boucher/ Stitcher/ tackhead" are plenty adequate.



The problem for me is that I hear "minstrel banjo" and I also think of blackface, Jim Crow, and Zip Coon.

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I disagree - it's a pretty useless term, and you've unintentionally proven my point. Bouchers were amateur, low quality banjos looked down upon by professional minstrels, and Stichter was an amateur maker and not a minstrel, nor is there evidence the handful of banjos he made were played by minstrels. People were undoubtedly playing minstrel tunes on these things (as they were still doing  later using late 19th / early 20th century banjos), but that doesn't make them "minstrel banjo." (Would anyone call a Fairbanks Electric or Whyte Laydie a "minstrel banjo?") 

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 01/22/2023:  06:25:38

quote:

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Originally posted by csacwp

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I disagree - it's a pretty useless term, and you've unintentionally proven my point. Bouchers were amateur, low quality banjos looked down upon by professional minstrels, and Stichter was an amateur maker and not a minstrel, nor is there evidence the handful of banjos he made were played by minstrels. People were undoubtedly playing minstrel tunes on these things (as they were still doing  later using late 19th / early 20th century banjos), but that doesn't make them "minstrel banjo." (Would anyone call a Fairbanks Electric or Whyte Laydie a "minstrel banjo?") 

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I see your point. I have to say, I was not aware that the Boucher was considered an amateur banjo. I always thought of it as being the first production banjo, and could this "off the rack" aspect have lead to that interpretation?

I think my comment is accurate for today, if not historically so. All the same, "minstrel banjo" is a term I avoid anyhow, but I also understand what most people mean when the use it. Consider, some poeple saying "early banjo" may have anything before Earl Scruggs in their mind. I've heard it used as much. We just aren't all in lexicographal agreement.

Edited by - Nic Pennsylvania on 01/22/2023 06:34:39

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 01/22/2023:  07:19:44

To the orignal poster, I'd say that your likely more in the market for an earlier banjo, such as the Boucher or Stitcher styles. As John states, most cello banjos are fretted. I've only ever seen a couple that were not.

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 01/22/2023:  09:23:46

I think today the difference between minstrel and cello banjos is the level of technology. The modern cello banjos have many newer features that most minstrel banjos do not. I say this while thinking back to the fantastic banjo collection at MIT in the 1980's. That was something to behold.

rmcdow - Posted - 01/22/2023:  09:29:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Nic Pennsylvania

To the orignal poster, I'd say that your likely more in the market for an earlier banjo, such as the Boucher or Stitcher styles. As John states, most cello banjos are fretted. I've only ever seen a couple that were not.

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The OP was asking for the difference between the cello banjo and the minstrel banjo, fretless.  The discussion went into one on the definition of a minstrel banjo and that there were not fretless cello banjos until more recently.  I don't know how the early banjos were tuned, but the ones I have come across are now tuned with D3 is 4th string. G3 is 3rd string. B3 is 2nd string. D4 is 1st string. G5 is 5th string.  Word usage aside, were any of the early banjos tuned to this tuning?  I have a cello banjo that is tuned to open G tuning, but all strings one octave lower than this tuning.  I don't know enough to speak intelligently to this subject, but from a previous post by the OP, and from an email exchange with her about cello banjos, my understanding is that she is interested in a banjo tuned to the lower octave tuning, and fretless.  She also has an interest in building (by a family member) the banjo.  Deborah, maybe you can weigh in on this to clarify your question.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 01/22/2023:  10:10:51

There has been recent discussion on this on Facebook and included Kristina Gaddy and Pete Ross. Their input, which I agree with, is that "early banjo" should reference gourd bodied banjos. "Early rimmed banjo" (they wanted "early wood rimmed banjo" but that would not include the nickel "spun" rims that came out in 1855) would include the pre "classic era" banjos that were formulated by James Clarke, J. B. Schall and S. S. Stewart among others. These generally are called "minstrel banjos".

The problem with "minstrel banjo" (and what makes it meaningless) is that minstrelsy was still going until the 1970s (the Black and White Minstrel Show in England). And the "banjos" used in minstrelsy included tenor and plectrums. One could also extend this to the fact that Flatt and Scruggs toured with a minstrel duo which would make Bluegrass a part of minstrelsy. The "barn dance" radio shows also frequency included minstrel comedian acts. So add to that the popular "old time" of radio era.


As to "cello banjos", the one offered by Gold Tone is based on a Gibson tenor cello (a tenor banjo pitched one octave below a regular tenor banjo). To make this a 5 string, they kept the scale the same and added a 5th peg.

The scale is so short that the resulting instrument has no power when tuned to pitch of a regular banjo. If tuned up to match an octave below the tenor banjo then it works fine.

To add to what John wrote, the cello banjo was developed to fill a very specific role in banjo clubs providing the bass voice of the group in accompaniment.

The early rimmed banjo was a solo instrument also used to accompany the voice in song. At some point American Civil War reenactors decided that early rimmed banjos should be pitched in G, 5 half steps below standard pitch of C today (C being "bluegrass G" with the 4th string lowered one step). While documentation and accounts contradict this, it has stuck and remains an anachronism.

While it is true that the G pitch was provided in Briggs Banjo Instructor, it was shortly after raised to A (three half steps below standard C). A pitch remained until the mid 1880s (about 1884).

It is plausible that some people were pitching their banjos to G, but reenactors representing it as plain, everyday and common does not stand historical scrutiny.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 01/23/2023:  05:28:28

dGDF#A= Briggs’ tutor of 1855.

Tune up one whole step for Rice’s 1858 tutor. Said to be the pitch Joel Sweeney used.

This is the interval equivalent of gCGBD.

KCJones - Posted - 01/23/2023:  06:54:00

Folks, please take a step back and try to READ THE ORIGINAL POST before going into a well-practiced demonstration about how smart you are and how much you know about banjo history.



OP is simply asking for advice on which type of banjo to buy, in the year of our lord 2023. While I'm sure it's appreciated, they are not asking for a lecture in etymology or a music history lesson.



In 2023, the only "cello banjo" that I know of is the products made by Gold Tone. In 2023, "minstrel banjo" means a Boucher-style 5-string fretless banjo. OP is asking us to describe the differences between these two types of banjos to aid in a purchasing decision.

Edited by - KCJones on 01/23/2023 07:00:13

KCJones - Posted - 01/23/2023:  06:58:47

dsalling

The primary difference between a modern 'cello' banjo and a modern 'minstrel' banjo is this: the cello banjo has frets, geared tuners, and relatively low action. The minstrel banjo is fretless, has friction tuners, and relatively high action. There's a lot of other differences, but these are the main differences that you'll notice as a player and that will affect how and what you play.

Questions, before giving advice on which is best for you:

What music got you interested in cello or minstrel banjos? What type of music do you want to play on this new banjo? What musicians do you enjoy and want to emulate? Are there any specific songs that are of interest to you?