Soulgambler - Posted - 01/13/2023:  02:10:01

So I've been "learning" banjo since 2008, took lessons for a while but haven't had any lessons for over three years.

I favour old-time/clawhammer over Scruggs-style, by the way.

I made it a new year's resolution to get back into it. The first thing I did was get some scale exercises which I started on this week. Working through my majors and have my C major, G major and D major in the bag. I'm going to work on the rest of the scale exercises, get some muscle memory happening and learn as much as I can.

What I've never been sure about is if a song has a C chord, which I know the positioning for obviously, which note(s) get played first to sound out the C?

I have a good technique (you should see how long the fingernails on my playing hand are!) and I can play at a reasonable speed but I am confused as to what order to play the string in if that makes sense.

One of my favorite old-time tunes is "Little Sadie" and I do have a tab for it but I would like to find the chords and work it out for myself. My goal is to take some of my favourite tunes and play them using chords instead of tab.

As my teacher once told me; tab is like heroin and if you keep relying on tab you end up addicted with the rest of the sad people so learn to play chords too. I've never forgotten that advice! Ha Ha!

Anyone able to help me out? Appreciate any help in advance.

Wobba - Posted - 01/13/2023:  03:58:21

Well, Little Saddie is an Old Time modal tunes. Generally speaking, modal tunes are not chordal based but melodic. The tuning itself, in the case Sawmill-gDGCD, gives the tune its underlying sound. So, in that sense a modal tune is sort of like a one chord tune. When playing modal tunes on the banjo, you may want backup with guitar, or mandolin. They will need some kind of chord progression. They should choose major chords or minor chords. If they go with minor chords it can add even more apprehension, tension, melancholy, sadness, regret, to a modal tune.

For the key of C your I, VI, V chords are C, F, G. But seriously you can just look up what all the chords are using a Circle of Fifths, either online or as a app on you phone. Just look for one. Then just tap a key and it'll highlight what the possible chords are.

Usually, when I'm using Sawmill tuning the tunes are going to have that Mountain Modal sound: Little Saddie, Little Maggie, Cluck Ole Hen, Pretty Polly, Sweet Sunny South, Shady Grove, etc. But then there are other tunes that use Sawmill tuning that do not sound modal: Cider, Ole Dan Tucker, Old Molly Hare, Sugar Hill, etc. So you have to listen to the sound of a song to determine what kind of chords would get used for backup.

maureenreed - Posted - 01/13/2023:  05:57:06

quote:

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Originally posted by Soulgambler

So I've been "learning" banjo since 2008, took lessons for a while but haven't had any lessons for over three years.



I favour old-time/clawhammer over Scruggs-style, by the way.



I made it a new year's resolution to get back into it. The first thing I did was get some scale exercises which I started on this week. Working through my majors and have my C major, G major and D major in the bag. I'm going to work on the rest of the scale exercises, get some muscle memory happening and learn as much as I can.



What I've never been sure about is if a song has a C chord, which I know the positioning for obviously, which note(s) get played first to sound out the C?



I have a good technique (you should see how long the fingernails on my playing hand are!) and I can play at a reasonable speed but I am confused as to what order to play the string in if that makes sense.



One of my favorite old-time tunes is "Little Sadie" and I do have a tab for it but I would like to find the chords and work it out for myself. My goal is to take some of my favourite tunes and play them using chords instead of tab.



As my teacher once told me; tab is like heroin and if you keep relying on tab you end up addicted with the rest of the sad people so learn to play chords too. I've never forgotten that advice! Ha Ha!



Anyone able to help me out? Appreciate any help in advance.

---

maureenreed - Posted - 01/13/2023:  05:57:48

quote:

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Originally posted by Soulgambler

So I've been "learning" banjo since 2008, took lessons for a while but haven't had any lessons for over three years.



I favour old-time/clawhammer over Scruggs-style, by the way.



I made it a new year's resolution to get back into it. The first thing I did was get some scale exercises which I started on this week. Working through my majors and have my C major, G major and D major in the bag. I'm going to work on the rest of the scale exercises, get some muscle memory happening and learn as much as I can.



What I've never been sure about is if a song has a C chord, which I know the positioning for obviously, which note(s) get played first to sound out the C?



I have a good technique (you should see how long the fingernails on my playing hand are!) and I can play at a reasonable speed but I am confused as to what order to play the string in if that makes sense.



One of my favorite old-time tunes is "Little Sadie" and I do have a tab for it but I would like to find the chords and work it out for myself. My goal is to take some of my favourite tunes and play them using chords instead of tab.



As my teacher once told me; tab is like heroin and if you keep relying on tab you end up addicted with the rest of the sad people so learn to play chords too. I've never forgotten that advice! Ha Ha!



Anyone able to help me out? Appreciate any help in advance.

---

I want to know this too! Doing the exact same thing....

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/13/2023:  07:26:40

If you're playing backup, a safe "vanilla" approach would be to aim for the root of a chord whenever you first change to that chord. (There are other things you can do, but that's a good place to start.)

But if you're playing lead, you go to whatever note is the melody note at that point in the tune. It'll usually be one of the notes in the chord, but occasionally it will be some non-chord note (usually followed by a nearby chord note).

carlb - Posted - 01/13/2023:  07:30:44

Now I play "Little Sadie" in A modal, aEAde. Before I played banjo, I played guitar for an old time band. For some modal tunes, I didn't want to hear the third note in the scale, since I couldn't live it being major or minor. So what I did on guitar is tune the B (2nd string) down to an A and never finger it; thus, it became a drone when the other fingers were playing A or G or E7 (leave the 4th string as an open D) chord positions.

These days when playing this, and quite a few other modal tunes on the banjo, I often chord (you can check my chord charts out if you want in my photo section), I tend to use E7 chord rather than G. It's a one finger chord; 2nd fret 3rd string, and gives the notes on the long strings EBDE.

In jams, I tend to leave the decision of chords to the guitar player, as often in modal tunes people sometimes hear the chords differently from one person to the next. What's right is how you hear the tune.

So for "Little Sadie"

The first line of text is in A and the 2nd line is in E7 and hold that position until the last word of the 4th line when I go back to A. I use this for singing or playing at the melody.

Soulgambler - Posted - 01/13/2023:  13:38:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

If you're playing backup, a safe "vanilla" approach would be to aim for the root of a chord whenever you first change to that chord. (There are other things you can do, but that's a good place to start.)



But if you're playing lead, you go to whatever note is the melody note at that point in the tune. It'll usually be one of the notes in the chord, but occasionally it will be some non-chord note (usually followed by a nearby chord note).

---

Thanks, chief. This makes sense. It is playing lead that I want to work up to so will keep up my scale exercises.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/13/2023:  14:10:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Soulgambler

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

If you're playing backup, a safe "vanilla" approach would be to aim for the root of a chord whenever you first change to that chord. (There are other things you can do, but that's a good place to start.)



But if you're playing lead, you go to whatever note is the melody note at that point in the tune. It'll usually be one of the notes in the chord, but occasionally it will be some non-chord note (usually followed by a nearby chord note).

---

Thanks, chief. This makes sense. It is playing lead that I want to work up to so will keep up my scale exercises.

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"Chief"? I feel like I've received a promotion!



Not just scales, though--I'd suggest especially work on being able to play on your instrument the melodies you hear in your head, until you get to the point (eventually) where you can do it almost instantaneously. Remember that (as I said above) most melody notes are chord notes, so knowing the chord progression gives you a "leg up" when it comes to figuring out a melody.

Soulgambler - Posted - 01/13/2023:  17:30:55

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

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Originally posted by Soulgambler

quote:

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Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

If you're playing backup, a safe "vanilla" approach would be to aim for the root of a chord whenever you first change to that chord. (There are other things you can do, but that's a good place to start.)



But if you're playing lead, you go to whatever note is the melody note at that point in the tune. It'll usually be one of the notes in the chord, but occasionally it will be some non-chord note (usually followed by a nearby chord note).

---

Thanks, chief. This makes sense. It is playing lead that I want to work up to so will keep up my scale exercises.

---

"Chief"? I feel like I've received a promotion!



Not just scales, though--I'd suggest especially work on being able to play on your instrument the melodies you hear in your head, until you get to the point (eventually) where you can do it almost instantaneously. Remember that (as I said above) most melody notes are chord notes, so knowing the chord progression gives you a "leg up" when it comes to figuring out a melody.

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"Chief" is a term of endearment saved only for people I like. Your answer was the best so the title is yours. ;-)

So when you say chord progression you mean this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%E2%80%...ogression 

So, I wanted to play a song with a  C chord the notes of the melody are played, in order, as C–G–Am–F or one other variant?

Do you just play around with the progression to get the melody?

wrench13 - Posted - 01/13/2023:  19:20:08

If you determine a song is in the key of C for example, the melody will be comprised of the notes in the C scale ( Mostly), aside from accidentals and stuff like flatted 3rds and 7ths. Thats where the music theory comes in. Things like these and chromatic runs and others make leads interesting.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/13/2023:  20:41:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Soulgambler

 

So when you say chord progression you mean this:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%E2%80%...ogression 

So, I wanted to play a song with a  C chord the notes of the melody are played, in order, as C–G–Am–F or one other variant?

 

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NO! That is just one chord progression, out of many. Each song has a chord progression--what chords go in what order, and for how long. For example, the progression for "Bury Me Beneath The Willow" is (assuming we're in the key of G) GGCC-GGDD-GGCC-GDGG (where each letter represents one measure of that chord. The progression for "Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms" (again assuming the key of G) is GGGG-GGDD-GGCC-DDGG. There are many others, too. (Naturally there will be many songs that share their progressions with other songs.) 



So whatever song you're learning, first learn the chord progression FOR THAT SONG, and then you'll find that most of the notes that make up the melody turn out to be notes in the prevailing chord at any given point in the tune.



Does that make sense?

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 01/13/2023 20:41:54

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/13/2023:  21:19:28

Go here and listen for the "changes" until it is second nature.



banjohangout.org/topic/80383

Greg Denton - Posted - 01/14/2023:  06:13:12

I had a friend who used to explain that the song was the "City", the chords were "The Neighborhoods of the City", and the melody was the "Path" that you traveled through the neighborhoods.