thefoxden - Posted - 10/16/2022:  22:48:19

I’ve had a May Bell pot on my bench for ages that I’m working on fitting a conversion neck to... Just a quick question in regards to tone and set up,

From what I’ve been hearing from past threads and video recordings, the sound for old time 5-string playing is actually not much to call home about... It’s got lots of bass and nice clicky plunk, but the sustain is too tinny and muddled to get that sweet mellow charm and volume to boot... a thick rim and not much air clearance between the head and rim might be to blame, but I intuitively do believe in this tone system! I think it just needs a sweet spot. (?!)

I’m wondering if anyone has tried 5-string conversions with either calfskin heads OR nylon strings (say on a renny head) and found winning tone combinations?

I love these so much for 4-string playing that I’m hard pressed to believe there’s not a basic set up-formula that would make a rockin 5-string out of these pots, but I haven’t an example in my browsing around so far...

In other words it seems like their choked tone is superb for jazz or string band playing, but they’re too muddy for clawhammer or frailing where notes sustain longer and need to blend together in that “clear woody backdrop”... maybe there’s a sleeper in these rims with 5-string necks and more gentle set ups? (Nylon or skin heads?)

Just looking to benefit from any similar experiments—I’ll have results at some point either way!

(And I have a feeling that both skin head and nylon strings would be a little disastrous and muted, but maybe one or the other would be a bit of a charm?! I dunno, just curious...)

martyjoe - Posted - 10/17/2022:  01:44:22

If It were me the first thing that I’d try is a clear head. Almost all my builds are tenors (I have 3 five strings coming through the shop at the moment). Another thing to consider is playing around with scale length bridge height & bridge placement. There’s a fair bit to think through.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/17/2022:  03:15:45

Two things: 1) The Chicago (Slingerland/Lyon & Healy) rings are different than the Bacon ones. 2) All the Chicago rings I’ve seen are on 10 3/4” shells. So expect different tone.

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 10/17/2022 03:16:55

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/17/2022:  05:32:26

The key to nylon strings is no back angle to the neck and very small frets (vintage style mandolin wire frets or similar).

No back angle allows for a 1/2” bridge and the needed high action to prevent buzzing.

lapsteel - Posted - 10/17/2022:  05:48:32

Have you considered making a wooden tone ring out of heavy, dense hardwood?

I have made 9.5, 10, 10.5 and 11 inch diameter pots with ventilated and non-ventilated brass rod “tone rings”. The magic happened when I switched to wooden tone rings. Calf skin is nice when I’m feeling nostalgic but it requires too much maintenance. I get the best mileage and "tone" from a Mylar head and metal strings. Any tailpiece that increases the string slope behind the bridge helps too. 

Edited by - lapsteel on 10/17/2022 05:57:01

Helix - Posted - 10/17/2022:  06:00:12

A young player approached me with a Weymann, no tone ring.

I squared up the rim and installed the 1/8" x 1/2" rolled brass tone ring.

It brought things to life. Older lammies still can sound good, but you are putting an entirely new signal through them with a 5-string neck.



I also got to do a 5-string conversion for one of the 500 Stromberg Cup-O-Phones.



Renn head and steel.



I dis-concur about changing the neck angle.



MartyJoe uses Bamboo, so do I. It's unfortunate that you can't hear what Bamboo can do.

Attack, sustain and decay are the three variables I look at.  

If  these older rims are intact, they still play if you tweak them with a little tone ring.  

Edited by - Helix on 10/17/2022 06:03:37

Helix - Posted - 10/17/2022:  09:40:52

I want to correct what I said
Mr Hooks is quite correct about nylon and heel angle
A shim would enable that

I think doing that and thin frets are not warranted here
Just convert, play and wake her up again

banjonz - Posted - 10/17/2022:  12:56:07

In the 80's I have an original Slingerland 5 string which vintage instrument expert George Gruhn said did not exist. In spite of the 10 3/4" pot, it was the nicest and sweetest sounding banjo for clawhammer I have ever played. It had a vellum on it.

banjonz - Posted - 10/18/2022:  16:58:42

quote:

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Originally posted by banjonz

In the 80's I have an original Slingerland 5 string which vintage instrument expert George Gruhn said did not exist. In spite of the 10 3/4" pot, it was the nicest and sweetest sounding banjo for clawhammer I have ever played. It had a vellum on it.

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Here is the Slingerland banjo in question.

 

thefoxden - Posted - 10/18/2022:  23:05:14

I have a good feeling that the vellum is the key that made that focused tone and volume so wonderful for you! It’s great to get some positive personal experience and perspective, thank you much! When I have a full conversion I’ll post some clips for reference. I came across this instrument, I think, doing research on this pot. I’m sure it was a gem.

All the best!