fluxie - Posted - 06/22/2022:  12:38:13

Hi All.
I'd like to check the head of my banjo with a Drum Dial.
I had a go earlier this evening, but fear got the better of me, so I thought I'd ask you experts, before dabbling...
I'd set the dial to zero, then placed it on the head near a hook and see a reading 89.
I then moved it to near the tailpiece and got a reading of 85.
The readings all around were between 84 and 91. I haven't tightened or loosened any hooks at all yet.

My question to you guys and gals is....
When checking and adjusting the head tension, do you remove the strings, bridge, tailpiece, and armrest, so you can get the Drum Dial in exactly the same place near the outside edge of the head?
Just to let you know, the banjo was newly made for me last year, it's less than a year old.
Thank you for your advice,
Fred

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 06/22/2022:  13:09:08

You won't be able to get an accurate DD reading near the tailpiece without removing the bridge and completely slacking to the strings.

leehar - Posted - 06/22/2022:  13:09:24

You should check at several spots around the rim, about 3/4” from the tension hoop. Ideally you want the same number at each spot. You would then tighten or loosen the lugs until the number at each spot is the same. I believe somewhere around 89 or 90 is about right but that depends on the tone you want.

lucas73b - Posted - 06/22/2022:  13:43:33

Their website drumdial.com has an instruction video.

johnahunter - Posted - 06/22/2022:  14:01:11

I keep the instrument strung and at pitch and, as Lee suggests, check multiple locations along the circumference of the rim - adjacent to the neck and tail piece on both sides and 2, 4, 8 and 10 o'clock. I put the base of the DD against the rim so the measuring location is consistent. If you have to tighten, re-check often because over-tightening can have very unfortunate consequences.

Alvin Conder - Posted - 06/22/2022:  14:01:24

To add a question to this thread.

I also never used a drum dial. Basically always done it by ear, but was wondering if a drum dial would be an improvement to what I always have been doing.

Question I have is, does that magic number of 89-90 also apply to skin heads?

Most of my banjo heads are skin, and I tap and tune by ear. Would a drum dial also work for skin heads?

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 06/22/2022:  14:13:23

Alvin, it's much less about any specific DD output number and much more about having the tension even all the way around the head.

Just the simple act of having the head evenly tensioned can make it come alive

jbalch - Posted - 06/22/2022:  14:32:47

quote:

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Originally posted by Alvin Conder

To add a question to this thread.



I also never used a drum dial. Basically always done it by ear, but was wondering if a drum dial would be an improvement to what I always have been doing.



Question I have is, does that magic number of 89-90 also apply to skin heads?



Most of my banjo heads are skin, and I tap and tune by ear. Would a drum dial also work for skin heads?

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Hide heads can be problematic with a traditional Drum Dial.  Drum Dials measure deflection as an indication of tension.  But hide heads don't deflect evenly around the whole surface - because of minute differences in thickness and texture.  If you force the deflection reading to be exactly the same all around - it can lead to pulling the tension hoop lower in some spots. That can result in all kinds of problems - even damage. 

Tuning by ear is a great method with hide.

However ... Nashville Banjo Co owner, Dave Dillard came up with a new device called Pocket-Dial that is smaller and easier to carry that a DrumDial.  It also provides a scale calibrated specifically for hide heads.  The hide heads scale has a green shaded zone that indicates the head is properly tensioned.  Rather than adjust to a specific precise number - you simply tighten anywhere within the range. the value within the range will vary from one spot to another on the hide.    

You can see the device and Dave's video's on his website.  Disclaimer:  I commented on the device for Dave on video - but I have no financial interest or benefit from their sale.  Pocket-Dial – Nashville Banjo Co. (nashvillebanjos.com)

The BHO drawing this month is for one of Dave's Pocket Dials!

Best wishes!

Edited by - jbalch on 06/22/2022 14:39:45

Alex Z - Posted - 06/23/2022:  07:49:40

"The readings all around were between 84 and 91. I haven't tightened or loosened any hooks at all yet."



"My question to you guys and gals is.... 

When checking and adjusting the head tension, do you remove the strings, bridge, tailpiece, and armrest, so you can get the Drum Dial in exactly the same place near the outside edge of the head?"

Your starting range -- 84 to 91 -- is quite wide.  To get the head evened up at this point, I'd recommend removing the strings (which would included the bridge and tailpiece).  The armrest is OK because the measuring guide for the Drum Dial is about the same distance that the armrest overhangs.

After you get it even, say around 88, then you string it back up again, in order that you can hear the effect of further tightening.  The optimal point is not a number, but rather what you hear.  If the sound is optimal at 89-1/2, then that's your number for this banjo, and allows you to easily check the tension every so often.

91 is on the tight side.  Be aware that when you increase the tension on the 84 hooks, the higher tension hooks will increase a little also.  Likewise, if lowering the tension on the high hooks, the tension on the low hoods will be reduced also.   So there will be a constant rebalancing of all the hooks on the path to a uniform 88 (before restringing).  The first thing that might be done is backing off all the hooks that read higher than 88 by about an eighth of a turn -- then starting bringing up the tension on the  low hooks.  Starting from a 84-91 range, might need 4-5 rounds to get the head fairly even.  The last little nudges might be 1/16 of a turn.

After you string it up, and want to tighten further, go no more than 1/16 of a turn all around, then retune and try out the tone.  My last little tweaks might be 1/32 of a turn, and it will affect the tone.  Some will tell you to adjust by 1/4 turns -- ignore that advice.   Unless of course that your ears cannot tell the difference.

There is no magic or secret process here, just a simple mechanical adjustment.  The objectives are (a) even out the tension of all the hooks and (b) adjust the overall even tension to the tone that you like the best.

You'll do fine.   In 30 minutes of work,  your banjo's sound will have improved immensely.

fluxie - Posted - 06/23/2022:  09:05:24

Hi guys.
Thank you for the advice.
I have looked and looked again at the Drum Dial's instruction video of how to use the "Drum Dial" and in the film it states
"No need to remove strings or bridge"... I can't get my head around this, as surely, when the strings and bridge are in place, they alone, are putting pressure on the head... BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY SAY?

Am I being dumb or what???

latigo1 - Posted - 06/23/2022:  10:59:17

Look at it this way. The purpose of a drum dial is to get an even head tension all the way around. If you adjust head tension without the strings and bridge, your head will be evenly tensioned all the way around, but as soon as you put the strings back on and tune it up, the head tension will probably no longer be even. Will that matter? I don't know. I use a drum dial and never loosen the strings, and seems to work out fine for me. I figure the manufacturer has probably done a lot of testing and knows what works best. I doubt they would give instructions that would give a less than perfect result. Don't over think it. The coin and ruler method seems to work pretty good also, even though there is no way to tell if you have absolutely even tension in all positions.

Alex Z - Posted - 06/23/2022:  12:33:07

"I can't get my head around this, as surely, when the strings and bridge are in place, they alone, are putting pressure on the head..."

Well, yes.  The issue is how much pressure, considering what the purpose is.

Once my head is even and at a reasonably high number, say 88-89.  Then I put the strings on.  And there is not much difference in readings all around.  This is not going to be true when the tension is very low, around 84 that you mention.

Once the head is even and at a reasonably high number, I don't adjust by number, but rather by equal turns of the nuts.  For example, to try the head a little tighter, I'd turn each nut 1/16 of a rotation.  The head stays even, yet everything is tighter.  Don't really care if the readings near the bridge are 0.5 different, because by turning the nuts an equal amount you already know that the tension will remain even.  

The reason that you want to start a low and uneven head with the strings off is that the Drum Dial does not measure tension -- it measures deflection of the head by the little spring poking out of the bottom.  Once the head gets fairly tight, the differences in that deflection are not much affected by the downward pressure on the bridge, and it is much easier to judge changes in tone immediately, without having to string up the banjo each time you nudge the nuts.

fluxie - Posted - 06/27/2022:  08:53:18

Thanks for the advice...
On Saturday morning I thought, let's do it...
I removed the resonator, set the drum dial to zero, and started to tweak the hook nuts...
The first nut I placed the wrench on, squeaked like hell (bare in mind I have never touched these before), on
removing the nut completely I could see that the thread in the brass nut, had been crossed.
Now for you guys on that side of the pond, getting spares doesn't seem to be a problem. But over here, getting a 1/4 AF nut 28 teeth per inch is virtually impossible. Eventually today, after trying many garages and engineering companies, I found a guy who had a tap. He ran it through the nut and that sorted that problem.

Back to the job in hand, I loosened all the strings and removed the bridge. I supported the banjo string side down and checked with the drum dial. This time, the readings were around 85 to 89. I loosened back all 24 nuts a little until the readings were very close to each other, around 86. (No more dodgy nuts)
Then every nut in turn was tightened in very small amounts until I reached 90.
Bridge put back, strings re-tuned and now the head reads 91.
I forgot to mention, that I did lightly lubricate the threads on the hooks.

I know some of you suggested that the drum dial checking and adjusting can be done without removing the strings etc, and it probably can, but I seemed to understand it better this way.

Thanks all.

thor363 - Posted - 06/27/2022:  10:32:58

The real question is how does it sound? :)

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/27/2022:  11:16:48

The one thing to remember about DrumDial is that it is not a prescriptive device. There is no best or right DrumDial reading that applies to every banjo. Someone here says 88 is reasonably high and 91 is tight. To my ear, 88 is low and tubby and 91 is just right. Though 90 is OK, too. If one of my heads falls below 90 the banjo starts sounding off to me. 

DrumDial is a reference tool. Its numbers aren't even units of measure. Just an index or scale for comparison.  It allows you to get an even adjustment of the head all around and once you've found the tension that sounds best to you it allows you to keep your head at that tension and return to it should you ever remove the head.

Twice in recent years my DrumDial alerted me to failed heads. They were sounding off and had dropped several numbers in one location. No amount of tightening would bring the numbers up. One head had split on the tone ring bearing surface. The other was tearing at the epoxy channel.

wrench13 - Posted - 06/27/2022:  11:34:10

SO my problem with using the drum dial, is that when I tightened up some nuts to the 89 reading, the adjacent nuts were now finger loose! And still reading 89 !! Seems like chasing adjustments to rocker arms on motorcycle engines. Or herding cats. Also the instruction say to go around the rim in sequence, but every tightening instruction I have come across when there are multiple fasteners is to go in some sort of compass direction, ie north to south, east to west, etc etc to get even tension and stress.

latigo1 - Posted - 06/27/2022:  12:55:14

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

SO my problem with using the drum dial, is that when I tightened up some nuts to the 89 reading, the adjacent nuts were now finger loose! And still reading 89 !! Seems like chasing adjustments to rocker arms on motorcycle engines. Or herding cats. Also the instruction say to go around the rim in sequence, but every tightening instruction I have come across when there are multiple fasteners is to go in some sort of compass direction, ie north to south, east to west, etc etc to get even tension and stress.

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This is where you have to be able to feel the tightness of each nut.  When starting out you need to try to adjust all the nuts so the tension hoop is level and all the nuts feel about the same, and not too tight.  You can't start adjusting the head if some nuts are squeeky tight and some are loose.  When all the nuts feel about the same tension, test where you are at with the drum dial.  Turn each nut the same amount until the dial is at the reading you want. When you are done, check each nut to be sure none are too loose.  If any are loose, tightening them up a little wont change the drum dial reading unless you overdo it.  The nuts wont all be exactly the same tension, but should be close.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/27/2022:  20:34:27

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

Also the instruction say to go around the rim in sequence, but every tightening instruction I have come across when there are multiple fasteners is to go in some sort of compass direction, ie north to south, east to west, etc etc to get even tension and stress.

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I think the experience of members here is that both methods work. With either approach, you finish up by finding any loose nuts and turning them just enough to snug them up.

latigo1 - Posted - 06/28/2022:  07:20:05

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by wrench13

Also the instruction say to go around the rim in sequence, but every tightening instruction I have come across when there are multiple fasteners is to go in some sort of compass direction, ie north to south, east to west, etc etc to get even tension and stress.

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I think the experience of members here is that both methods work. With either approach, you finish up by finding any loose nuts and turning them just enough to snug them up.

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If you do it that way, the tight nuts will be doing most of the work and the snug nuts will just be along for the ride.  I prefer to make them as equal as possible. As a final step I use the wrench to feel out which nuts are too tight and which ones are too loose, and adjust as necessary until they feel the same, using the drum dial to be sure the head tension doesn't change.