timacn - Posted - 04/27/2022:  20:48:10

I understand that people who know a lot about banjos generally hold the old late 70s and early 80s Gold Star banjos in high regard. In the late 1970s, a very good professional player sold me his "backup banjo," a nice Ibanez Artist, because he wanted to get a Gold Star. I don't discount the attraction, but I've always wondered what's behind it.

My understanding is that aside from instruments like Stelling and Nechville, which have their own unique designs, Bluegrass Banjos based on the Gibson Mastertone are basically rims, tone rings, necks, flanges, resonators, and hardware, and aside from different woods, inlays, etc. they are all very similar in overall design. Is that correct? My understanding is also that many prestigious brands, including post circa 1940 Gibson Mastertones, obtained their parts from other manufacturers and assembled them into fine instruments. So if Gold Star banjos were also assembling their instruments from quality parts made by other people (and I assume they were) what made them so desirable? Did they use better parts than those on Ibanez Artist banjos? Was the fit and finish better? Some say the Gold Stars from that era were even better than Gibson Mastertones made in the same period. Anybody have an opinion on this? As always, thanks.

I understand that the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts, but if many banjo makers were using the same metal and wood parts, why was one banjo brand considered to be significantly better than another?

GStump - Posted - 04/27/2022:  21:00:37

It is my understanding that those old gold star banjos were made by gold star (by this I mean the wood parts - the rim, resonator, and the neck.) I suspect they also made their own tone rings. The metal parts were no doubt obtained from outside suppliers, but they apparently did make an effort to get GOOD parts. There are, in my opinion of course, better banjos available, but they cost much more. During the time those were made (mid/late 70's until about 1986 I think?) they were very good banjos and many did think they were as good or better than the Gibson banjos being made at the same time, at a cheaper price. And to top it off, these banjos are now 40 plus or minus years old, so there is now a "vintage" factor involved. A good new banjo available today can easily cost 4 or 5 thousand dollars or more, and these old gold star banjos at a fraction of that is a very good argument to be made for sure!

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/27/2022:  22:42:59

Japanese made. Copied carefully from an old Gibson. I think they were made by Tokai. Russ Carson, i think, still uses one as his main stage banjo. Tom Adams played one with the Johnson Mountain Boys.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 04/27/2022:  23:32:01

At the time these came out, Gibson stunk and the imports were so-so. Also, the imports were not really true copies of Gibson. Tokai's quality was superior and they were dead ringers for the old Gibson's (the Gold Star logo from afar even looks like "Gibson"). I had a 78 or 79 in the early 80's and it was better than the RB-250's that Gibson was producing. (The Gibson lineup you saw from '89 - 2010 was not available then and is vastly different in quality). Stelling and OME were popular, but pricy. Deering was pretty new then, but also higher priced. The market went nuts when Gold Star became available much like it reacted to the Recording Kings 10 years or so ago, and for the same reasons.

Are they better than what you can get today? I would say no, but that's obviously subjective. The variety of great bluegrass banjos floating around today is unprecedented. There was nothing magic, for example, about the standard tone ring. In the one I had, Chris Warner swapped it out for a Ryan. Plus some of the necks were pretty clunky (mine was thinned down). But they owned the price point and, I would argue, they were better than Gibson. So it was either Gold Star or pay a lot more.

Another interesting question is whether that era is really better than today's Gold Stars. I don't know. I have one right now and have played several from 2005 on that are very good banjos. The one I have right now I think is better than the original I had. Again, subjective and hard to judge so many years apart. But I think it is still a great option.

chuckv97 - Posted - 04/27/2022:  23:50:04

I recall seeing Ralph Stanley with one in a Gold Star ad, I think in Pickin’ magazine

okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 04/28/2022:  04:12:32

In January of 2021, I had the opportunity to purchase a 1980 G11W from an individual in Arizona, who was selling some instruments of a friend who had passed away. 

 That archtop G11W is the real deal. Rarely have I come across a banjo that sounded as good. 

 It actually made me appreciate the archtop sound much more.

 I still play it as my main banjo.

Edited by - okbluegrassbanjopicker on 04/28/2022 04:15:19

Bob Buckingham - Posted - 04/28/2022:  04:55:58

While their are those who wax poetic about the old Gold Stars, the new ones are easily on par with many of the products featuring the Gibson name of the past few decades. But then there is a mystique about banjos that does not necessarily follow reason. This happens with other instruments as well. But since Saga reissued the GS banjos, and then cleaned up their act, they are very functional and basically that is all you need. A good sounding banjo that plays well is a tool much like a hammer. You can drive the point home if you know how to use it. Banjo as art, well that is another thread altogether.

lightgauge - Posted - 04/28/2022:  04:59:12

They made an issue of using a 3 ply rim on the flatheads in their ads. I have read discussions that the wood came from northern maple similar to earlier Gibsons. Good components and good craftsmanship made good banjos.

BobbyE - Posted - 04/28/2022:  05:02:04

I own a Vintage Gold Star GF100-FE and it is a fine banjo and in excellent shape to be 40 years old or so. The workmanship is top notch. Running your finger along the edge of the binding where it contacts the wood you can hardly tell where the binding ends and the wood begins. I also believe that the hardware was either all brass or all bronze and whichever it was, added somewhat to the overall weight of the banjo. As someone has already mentioned quality parts and quality workmanship pretty much will produce a good banjo. Do I think it is better than the other banjos I have owned, which have been several? No, I don't but it is still a fine banjo that IMO holds it place with the others given the subjective nature of banjo players and what they like in a banjo as to playability and tone.

Bobby

banjoez - Posted - 04/28/2022:  05:42:32

I would say GoldStar has had three distinct Era's, The Japanese era from the 70's-80's, the reissue era in the mid-late 2000-2010's and the current re-engineered era from about 2018 - now. Though the Japanese era is considered to be the best by many my experience has been that the current era of GF-100 JD's and GF-100 W's are very, very good with nicer wood and better playing necks in general then some of the older ones. The no-hole rings in the JD's are excellent. I do realize every brand of imported banjos can have a clinker now and then but the new generation GS's have all been consistently good from the ones I've tried out (once properly setup).

Edited by - banjoez on 04/28/2022 05:46:12

The Old Timer - Posted - 04/28/2022:  05:46:08

Those Gold Stars, and most likely the first quality newer Gold Stars (since 2000 I've seen some new "seconds" Gold Stars in the market) were REALLY good banjos at their price point, as mentioned above. Until the best of the Recording Kings came along, there were none better at that price point.

If you don't want to pop for a post 1987 Gibson, a top quality used Gold Star is still probably the best buy, in my opinion.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 04/28/2022:  06:05:51

simple answer,,,they were just built right,, right parts of metal and wood,,put together correctly,, i had few chances to buy 1 years ago and being either foolish or lack of funds didn't pull the trigger at the time,,,,,,now its hind sight.

KCJones - Posted - 04/28/2022:  06:40:31

People act like there's some sort of magical fairy dust that certain brands and eras had, that mysteriously make their banjos higher quality. The truth is really quite simple: Thoughtful design, high quality parts, built with tight tolerances.

There is no magic. People will go on and on about "early Gold Stars" and "Greg Rich Mastertones" and "Prewar tone" and all sorts of other marketing BS. And that's really what it is, BS.

Do a blind comparison of a 30s Gibson, 80s Gold Star, 90s Gibson, and a brand new Huber/Yates/Lemon/Bishline/etc/etc, and 99.9% of people will not be able to tell the difference between any of them. The reason for that is that they're basically all the exact same banjo. The difference in value and desirability is entirely the result of marketing and 'mystique'.

lightgauge - Posted - 04/28/2022:  06:55:20

I disagree that it is all BS. I have played all you mention except Lemon and there was a difference to me, but as I have said before, it is only real if you can hear or feel it.
My wife would agree with you. They all sound like banjos!

heavy5 - Posted - 04/28/2022:  06:57:10

In the 70's thru the early 80's when I had my part time shop I was a Saga dealer & did quite a few Gibson conversions using GS components which were available very reasonable .
One I did w/ a 32 TB 2 using early GS components has been my go to banjo for a long time as it just has a sound that to me is incomparable .
Many have approached me after playing on stage or in a jam wanting to know its identity . I asked Saga's Keldsen way back about GS metals used & he believed the very early GS rings , hoops & flanges were made of the same alloy .

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/28/2022:  06:57:37

I'd be interested to hear desert rose's comments on this subject.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/28/2022:  09:22:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

I recall seeing Ralph Stanley with one in a Gold Star ad, I think in Pickin’ magazine

---

He played one at a San Francisco concert I went to. Sounded fine. 

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 04/28/2022 09:26:04

Bradskey - Posted - 04/28/2022:  10:54:30

Because they were made in Japan? Back when Japan made all the best stuff, and is still not too shabby.

Many products of 1970s American manufacture were substantially.... crap.

Edited by - Bradskey on 04/28/2022 10:57:53

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 04/28/2022:  11:07:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

I recall seeing Ralph Stanley with one in a Gold Star ad, I think in Pickin’ magazine

---

Yes and oddly enough he played a flathead Gold Star. Weird to see him without an archtop!

rcc56 - Posted - 04/28/2022:  11:12:25

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

I recall seeing Ralph Stanley with one in a Gold Star ad, I think in Pickin’ magazine

---

He played one at a San Francisco concert I went to. Sounded fine. 

---

I'll bet he sounded exactly like himself.

Westvon - Posted - 04/28/2022:  11:36:15

I have a J.D. Crowe Gold Star jo from the late 70s. This thing is a major Hoss in terms of tone.

rbfour5 - Posted - 04/28/2022:  12:07:47

It's not the steak- it's the sizzle that sells......

Brian Murphy - Posted - 04/28/2022:  13:21:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by Westvon

I have a J.D. Crowe Gold Star jo from the late 70s. This thing is a major Hoss in terms of tone.

---

I thought the JD Crowe model started in '81.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 04/28/2022:  16:17:34

Picky, picky picky….

earlstanleycrowe - Posted - 04/29/2022:  02:57:55

A guy I used to jam with had an early-80s Crowe, and it was one of the loudest banjos I've ever heard. He would walk up to a circle that had 3-4 banjo players already and it was like it was the only banjo there.

I was surprised in this Russ Carson video how similar the older and newer Crowe sounded, especially since the older is maple and the newer mahogany: youtube.com/watch?v=m8tQeetcEt0

leehar - Posted - 04/29/2022:  04:54:23

I have played an early 80’s Gold Star that was perhaps the loudest banjo I’ve ever got a hold of. The neck however was very wide and, I believe, not original. I owned a late 70’s RB250 which was, unfortunately, a very inferior instrument. It had the multi-ply rim and poor workmanship on the neck and inlays. I eventually traded that in on a 96 Earl Scruggs which is a dynamite banjo. Last year I bought a brand new Gold Star GF100FE and I am COMPLETELY happy with it. Slightly mellower than the Scruggs but a fantastic neck and beautiful workmanship throughout. It will be heard when I want it to but the sound quality is nicely even and rich all the way up the neck. I would choose it over that 80’s model but that’s just me.

steve davis - Posted - 04/29/2022:  04:56:25

I bought a new '76 G-11W.One of the best mahogany necks I've played.I didn';t like the 11-ply rim so I put in a StewMac 3 ply in '78.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 04/29/2022:  07:07:18

Steve Campbell had an '81 Crowe. Consider the player, but I have heard him play it at home and live. If you had me blindfolded and told me it was a prewar Granada, I would not have doubted you.

monstertone - Posted - 04/30/2022:  16:27:33

Before WWII, manufacturing was less concerned about time, related to money. Brand recognition was the name of the game.

In a free market, quality materials, craftsmanship, & attention to details will prevail,,,,,as long as the bean counters are kept out of the mix.  CNC machinery was just coming into its own during the 70s. If you had new equipment & good programmers, you were able to offer a quality product at a reasonable price, & turn a profit.

Not to discredit any of the independent boutique makers. Bless their hearts, they were, & still are, low volume old school dedicated craftsmen/entrepreneurs. In a league all their own. The world is better for having them.

For those wishing to dig it out of the archives, Desert Rose has documented the Saga story on BHO..   

Toshi Tsuchida - Posted - 05/02/2022:  09:46:19

You are the sweetest people in the Banjo Hangout society, Thank you.

I posted the vintage Gold Star banjo revival project on both Collector's Corner and Banjo Building, Setup, and Repair forum not knowing the presence of timacn's posting on other Banjo-Related topic before hand . I regret it very much. It feels more comfortable to be here.

One of your American hero who is a musician and an inventor, Mr. Gene Parsons tells about Tokai banjo and the Tokai people he met in mid-1980s.
Copy “1980s Tokai Gakki Banjo - Peghead Nation “ then paste onto Google.
Tokai Gakki(musical instruments) was a major customer for his invention, Stringbender. Tokai presented their Tokai T-1200R to many banjo players who visited Japan for sales promotion. It was in around 1978 to 1982. Names are Tony Trischka, Ben Eldridge, Bill Keith, Bela Fleck, Bill Emerson and so on. Ben Eldridge and Bela Fleck actually used Tokai banjo on their recordings.
Before getting into this topic, I started to write how the vintage Gold Star banjo was planned, what was its important essence for the development, and how they were made and so on, but it was going to be very, very long story so I decided to skip it this time.

Back to the vintage Gold Star banjo, All of your story told above seems accurate, especially Lee Harrington's. The new Gold Star JD model and its series seemed sound better than the vintage Gold Star to me on YouTube. I began to make a research effort for tone improvement of the vintage Gold Stars recently after hearing the sound of new Gold Star and 81 JD Crowe model. The vintage Gold Star banjos are about to reach the age of 40. The prewar Gibson banjos had fantastic tone even in the early 1950s when they were only 20 years. I have waited years for any sound improvement from the vintage Gold Stars, but nothing happened, why?. Because they were solidly made( See attached photo showing no gap between tension hoop and hook. The satin gold plating helps to recognize it) like cars I made in US while the Ode was well made in terms of sound . I made maximum effort to design a body as solid as possible but I made it too much. My effort made whole body rigid not solid. See I attached photos of the JD Crowe model and the Ode style D for the reference. Ode looks poorly made but has soft but good response. The JD Crowe model sounds exceptionally but it sounds just like crystal made(tone ring press fitted?). For some reason, the result from JD model is in the right direction but on others usually not.
Followings are our(my) design philosophy.
1. Gap between part and part should be minimum(hook related part).
2. Tone ring should have press-fit configuration.
3. Metal parts should be made of brass (Tokai was founded as a harmonica maker so brass is their first option, they were tension hoop, flange, arm rest, rods, tailpiece)
4. Part should be assembled tight together (flange, rim, and neck)
But the most important thing was that the Banjo should be alike the prewar Gibson Mastertone banjo from 1930s as much as possible except two parts, tension hoop and flange. A new tone ring was made from copper rich bronze alloy referring to the data Mr. Keldsen handed us.

Tokai developed the most of parts exclusively for the new flat head series except Presto type tailpiece and tuner button. These two part were developed for the Gold Star arch top model in 1975 prior to the US distribution by Saga in 1976. Presto type tailpiece was designed by a banjo designer before me. I made a drawing for Keith-type pearloid button. Mr. Keldsen brought a sample button with him in 1975 and ask us to duplicate it for his Gold Star arch top banjo that he was thinking of starting sales in US. We placed an order with the tuner maker Gotoh. This was my first job at Tokai Gakki.

My study result for the vintage Gold Star banjo:
The engagement between tension hoop and hooks had fatal design error.
I designed to ensure forever perfect engagement, even if parts would be deformed gradually. Gibson and other makers used pot metal for tension hoop and flange while Tokai used brass expecting superior tone to Gibson. But this design didn't help it I think. Because brass is harder than pot metal. Relatively soft pot metal contributed for an accidental tone improvement that none have noticed. The poor Ode tension hoop-hook construction also contributed for tone improvement as well I think.
We believe that brass has better tonal quality than pot metal but both are actually very close. Many of Japanese made banjos in 1970s had a pot metal tone rings. This is widely seen even now for lower price Master clone banjos from Asia. Tokai used brass tone ring for GF85(T-850R). Pot metal is low-melting point metal about 400 degrees C while that of brass is about 800 degrees C. A part made by pot metal die casting have clean surface, so no additional machining is necessary but brass diecast molds can have cracks so called “Heat crack” very easily so additional fine machining is necessary to almost all surface before buffing. It is incomparably expensive.

I talked about the mysterious tone improvement benefit from the usage of pot metal. I tried to make verbal explanation but gave up. Finding this fact, I finally discovered the very effective counter measure for the vintage Gold Star. I tested using 1977 Gold Star proto #2, 1978 and 1980 GF100HF, 1979 T-1200R FE, T-1200RW, and T-850R, 1981 JD proto. I continued to buy the vintage Tokai when they came to the market but it is rare. JD model showed minimum improvement because it already had but all others had great improvement. I am confidence to announce the method. I think it is better not to tell you how much improvement by XX%. Hearing is believing.
Please jump to “Banjo Building,Setup,Repair forum” then select “Vintage Gold Star test for tone improvement Phase one” The test sample one with two wires is easiest and favorable. I posted and asked it to all Vintage Gold Star Banjo owners several days ago but so far there is no test result report posted. I'm disappointed. If you try, you will need ear plugs or a gentleman next door will knock your door.
Thank you, Toshi

GF20 & Ode comparison

 

EricFlatpick - Posted - 05/12/2022:  12:13:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Japanese made. Copied carefully from an old Gibson. I think they were made by Tokai. Russ Carson, i think, still uses one as his main stage banjo. Tom Adams played one with the Johnson Mountain Boys.

---

Tokai sounds about right.  I had a Tokai copy of a Mastertone with the Flying Eagle inlay pattern, which I bought in Fukuoka in 1973 when I was working there--a very nicely made, easy to play, great sounding banjo.  Wish I still had it, but a burglar got it, decades ago.  

EricFlatpick - Posted - 05/12/2022:  12:20:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Toshi Tsuchida

You are the sweetest people in the Banjo Hangout society, Thank you.



I posted the vintage Gold Star banjo revival project on both Collector's Corner and Banjo Building, Setup, and Repair forum not knowing the presence of timacn's posting on other Banjo-Related topic before hand . I regret it very much. It feels more comfortable to be here.



One of your American hero who is a musician and an inventor, Mr. Gene Parsons tells about Tokai banjo and the Tokai people he met in mid-1980s.

Copy “1980s Tokai Gakki Banjo - Peghead Nation “ then paste onto Google.

Tokai Gakki(musical instruments) was a major customer for his invention, Stringbender. Tokai presented their Tokai T-1200R to many banjo players who visited Japan for sales promotion. It was in around 1978 to 1982. Names are Tony Trischka, Ben Eldridge, Bill Keith, Bela Fleck, Bill Emerson and so on. Ben Eldridge and Bela Fleck actually used Tokai banjo on their recordings.

Before getting into this topic, I started to write how the vintage Gold Star banjo was planned, what was its important essence for the development, and how they were made and so on, but it was going to be very, very long story so I decided to skip it this time.



Back to the vintage Gold Star banjo, All of your story told above seems accurate, especially Lee Harrington's. The new Gold Star JD model and its series seemed sound better than the vintage Gold Star to me on YouTube. I began to make a research effort for tone improvement of the vintage Gold Stars recently after hearing the sound of new Gold Star and 81 JD Crowe model. The vintage Gold Star banjos are about to reach the age of 40. The prewar Gibson banjos had fantastic tone even in the early 1950s when they were only 20 years. I have waited years for any sound improvement from the vintage Gold Stars, but nothing happened, why?. Because they were solidly made( See attached photo showing no gap between tension hoop and hook. The satin gold plating helps to recognize it) like cars I made in US while the Ode was well made in terms of sound . I made maximum effort to design a body as solid as possible but I made it too much. My effort made whole body rigid not solid. See I attached photos of the JD Crowe model and the Ode style D for the reference. Ode looks poorly made but has soft but good response. The JD Crowe model sounds exceptionally but it sounds just like crystal made(tone ring press fitted?). For some reason, the result from JD model is in the right direction but on others usually not.

Followings are our(my) design philosophy.

1. Gap between part and part should be minimum(hook related part).

2. Tone ring should have press-fit configuration.

3. Metal parts should be made of brass (Tokai was founded as a harmonica maker so brass is their first option, they were tension hoop, flange, arm rest, rods, tailpiece)

4. Part should be assembled tight together (flange, rim, and neck)

But the most important thing was that the Banjo should be alike the prewar Gibson Mastertone banjo from 1930s as much as possible except two parts, tension hoop and flange. A new tone ring was made from copper rich bronze alloy referring to the data Mr. Keldsen handed us.



Tokai developed the most of parts exclusively for the new flat head series except Presto type tailpiece and tuner button. These two part were developed for the Gold Star arch top model in 1975 prior to the US distribution by Saga in 1976. Presto type tailpiece was designed by a banjo designer before me. I made a drawing for Keith-type pearloid button. Mr. Keldsen brought a sample button with him in 1975 and ask us to duplicate it for his Gold Star arch top banjo that he was thinking of starting sales in US. We placed an order with the tuner maker Gotoh. This was my first job at Tokai Gakki.



My study result for the vintage Gold Star banjo:

The engagement between tension hoop and hooks had fatal design error.

I designed to ensure forever perfect engagement, even if parts would be deformed gradually. Gibson and other makers used pot metal for tension hoop and flange while Tokai used brass expecting superior tone to Gibson. But this design didn't help it I think. Because brass is harder than pot metal. Relatively soft pot metal contributed for an accidental tone improvement that none have noticed. The poor Ode tension hoop-hook construction also contributed for tone improvement as well I think.

We believe that brass has better tonal quality than pot metal but both are actually very close. Many of Japanese made banjos in 1970s had a pot metal tone rings. This is widely seen even now for lower price Master clone banjos from Asia. Tokai used brass tone ring for GF85(T-850R). Pot metal is low-melting point metal about 400 degrees C while that of brass is about 800 degrees C. A part made by pot metal die casting have clean surface, so no additional machining is necessary but brass diecast molds can have cracks so called “Heat crack” very easily so additional fine machining is necessary to almost all surface before buffing. It is incomparably expensive.



I talked about the mysterious tone improvement benefit from the usage of pot metal. I tried to make verbal explanation but gave up. Finding this fact, I finally discovered the very effective counter measure for the vintage Gold Star. I tested using 1977 Gold Star proto #2, 1978 and 1980 GF100HF, 1979 T-1200R FE, T-1200RW, and T-850R, 1981 JD proto. I continued to buy the vintage Tokai when they came to the market but it is rare. JD model showed minimum improvement because it already had but all others had great improvement. I am confidence to announce the method. I think it is better not to tell you how much improvement by XX%. Hearing is believing.

Please jump to “Banjo Building,Setup,Repair forum” then select “Vintage Gold Star test for tone improvement Phase one” The test sample one with two wires is easiest and favorable. I posted and asked it to all Vintage Gold Star Banjo owners several days ago but so far there is no test result report posted. I'm disappointed. If you try, you will need ear plugs or a gentleman next door will knock your door.

Thank you, Toshi

---

Thank you, Toshi, for such an informative post.  Wish I still had my '73 Tokai!

Banjobailey72 - Posted - 05/12/2022:  15:35:45

I don't know what year it was made??? But I bought a GF200 1952 Classic Bowtie from Larry Mathis and I would put it against anything!!! At the time I could have bought basically any banjo I wanted and I picked several high end Gibsons,but I kept going back to the Goldstar...

Dale Diehl - Posted - 05/13/2022:  06:08:06

Josiah Tyree of The Kody Norris Show plays a Gold Star.

My second banjo was a Gold Starr Maple Wreath arch top. It was my banjo for seven years and I loved it, until I became very disappointed with the poor tone up the neck. Being an arch top, I suppose was the major contributing factor. I got the the Jones for that good old flat head sound and ended up with a Gibson, Scruggs, Standard. The blonde wood of my Gold Star was eye catching and I received many compliments about it. The workmanship was good. Not first rate, on the inlays, but the finish on that banjo seemed bullet proof. It had a slender, fast neck, much like Deerings do. It was heavy one. Out weighed my Gibson.

Edited by - Dale Diehl on 05/13/2022 06:10:19

Tractor1 - Posted - 05/13/2022:  06:30:06

JD said in his ad that it had the sound ,they all were after

Edited by - Tractor1 on 05/13/2022 06:35:12

steve davis - Posted - 05/13/2022:  12:09:13

Gold Star had a better product than Gibson in the 70s,imo.

Toshi Tsuchida - Posted - 05/14/2022:  05:37:18

Thank you for your positive message. In fact, yesterday I was confirmed infected with COVID-19 and have been quarantined in my hotel room from today. Apart from my wife, and everything is free including medical care and three lunch box day until recovery. The only drawback is the lack of a microwave. The symptoms of the infection are almost gone. Banjo Hangouts activities are currently available 24 hours a day.

I posted a thread on the Banjo Building, Setup and Repair Forum titled "Vintage Gold Star Banjo Test-Tone Improvement Phase 1" to show you how to temporarily set up your banjo to find the Vintage Gold Star TRUE tone. I decided to refrain from showing results because discovering something in your actions was more exciting than acting with information from others. So far, there is no response.
I attach two mp3 files today. One is from the 1977 Gold Star Flat Head Proto and the other is from the 81 GF20(JD Crowe model). I decided that these two banjos were a great help in explaining my proposal because they were the cornerstones of the Gold Star banjo's reputation.
You can soon find why I hesitated to share the results from my test because of my poor play, not the tone from them.
If you are interested in this please try and report your result on the Banjo Building, Setup…....Forum.

Due to the Covid-19 infection I can not make a normal judgment, but please listen to the following story.
Let me tell you one fact that many of you have already noticed. The Gibson no tone ring models, the vintage RB-1 and RB-11 often produce louder sound. They only have a small brass hoop instead of a massive Mastertone tone ring. I don’t think it contributes the sound improvement. A steel hoops may be more effective at maintaining the circular contour of the head.

In my understanding, the source of the sound heard here does not come from the tone ring, but from the tension hoop. Imagine, if you strike the tone ring supported by three tennis balls by a large racket with a skin surface, the generated sound could be tiny and not be audible. On the contraly, if you hit a tension hoop supported by 24 steel nails with a aluminum or steel hammer that has exactly the same shape as the tension hoop. There is no doubt that sound will be generated and good sustain will be left.

The tone ring works just soften the sound as a damper, controls its sustain as a filter, and increases the sound as an amplifier (especially the Stelling’s wedge-fitting system, the loosest contact possible with a 45 degree angle and wide contact area). The Vintage Gold Star had a system that held the tension hoop as tightly as possible expecting the minimum energy loss from it. The tension hoop was made of brass die-cast instead of softer brass sheet or pot metal. The surface of brass die-cast is commonly very hard, like case-hardened steel. It refers to the distribution of hardness in cross section, not hardness itself. On the other hand, sand casting used for tone ring cools the mold and the product slowly together, the product ends in soft. On the other hand, Die casting is performed in a high cycle and a products are forcibly cooled. As a result, the surface is rapidly cooled and hardened. The vintage Gold Star die-cast tension hoop(flange as well) had rough surface and required to be lathed all the surfaces (OD, ID, top, bottoms, and small chamfer) needed to get a soft surface for buffing. This was not for the Gibson. The Gibson pot metal die-cast tension hoop had a soft and smooth surface, so they could skip this process and go to the buffing process. They could make tension hoop and flange at far lower cost compare to the vintage Gold Stars’s. For the vintage Gold Star, the groove on the bracket remained unmachined and very hard. In Gibson banjos, as they get older, the tension hoop grooves began to be smashed and the hoop itself tends to tilt outward like a tulip, and over the years, a tension hoop and brackets became to have in the best mesh condition and to be stable. Entering this period, the stress on the tension hoop came to be minimized. It made the Prewar Gibson banjos sound better than the new ones. A similar theory seems to apply to the relationship between tone ring and rim. The vintage Gold Stars, on the other hand, had a very stiff outer edge in the groove of the tension hoop, so most of the downward force received from the bracket was supported only by the edges. Also, because the tension hoop itself was strong, the cross section would not change. Since the movement of the tension hoop was restricted by the brackets which firmly held tension hoop, the freedom of vertical vibration was suppressed. My suggestion showed a pilot method to release the tension hoop from this state and allows to vibrate it in any radial direction. As the result, the bracket uses the wedge-fitting theory developed by Stelling’s. Again the 45(actually 30) degree wedge-fitting system provides the loosest and stabel support possible and made these parts assembly more relaxed. Please listen to my recording using TASCAM DR-05-VER3 Linear PCM Recorder. After listening to this I noticed the neccessity of the pop blocker screen between microphone and banjo head. The recorded sound is a little weird because the banjo was set too close to the head and banjo sounded loud.
Brass, especially brass die-cast, is harder and heavier than pot metal, so the initial response is slow, but when a large amount energy is applied, it produces a louder sound and longer sustain than that of the Gibson I believe.

Now I'm making a matrix showing the relation between model, setup, and sound output to help us understand the mutual relationship. I'm also trying to create a graphic that makes these theories easier to understand. For that reason, I have just started learning new graphic software.

Remember, the attached files were recorded as my experiment data and not intended for public. I am now quarantined so this is the only option for this thread, sorry! Use external speakers for TRUE TONE. I have already developed a sustain control device for my other banjo.

I have little time left in my life, but I still have time to spend creating new expression in English. Google, thank you for your proofreading support.

PROTO #2 REMO -Bamboo bridge-Copper wire

GF 20 5-Star Head(MC)-Sosebee Bridge-Plastic Collars

steve davis - Posted - 05/14/2022:  08:05:24

Wishing you a great recovery Mr. Tsuchida.
I've owned 5 Gold Stars since 1976 and appreciate the depth of your experience and knowledge,sir.
Concerning the use of pot-metal (zamac) in hoops and flanges I've heard it said that the quicker "decay' of the note compared to bronze sustain is preferred even though the pot metal loses shape over time.

Very interesting to read your words on the roles of the tone ring and tension hoop in the sound.I am now reconsidering my long-held beliefs.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge here with us.

Toshi Tsuchida - Posted - 05/14/2022:  10:16:38

Thank you Steve,
For reference, I attach a recording of Gibson RB-18(1996) made under exactly the same conditions as GF20. I don't know if this is a good example or not to compare because the RB-18 is a top tension model. The initial development concept of the top tension model was to make the head tension maintenance easier. As a result, it became heavier and the heavier tension hoop is more firmly bolted to the flange, which affects the sound. Unlike the hook-shaped bracket, by using the flange bolts, the force that the bolt suppresses the tension hoop becomes smaller per unit area, and the restraint of vibration in the vertical direction is kept smaller. I studied the use of Socket Flat Countersunk Head Cap Screw with a 90 degree taper. But the banjo has 24 bolts, and each bolt will become engaging the tension hoop more tightly. Currently the bolt and tension hoop are in contact only in a horizontal plane. The holes for bolts have a relatively large gap. Therefore, I have determined that this change does not provide any significant improvement. The length tapped on the flange is very short and the flange is made of pot metal so the bolt-flange connection is very vulnerable. However, this seems to have a good effect on the sound. A heavy pot metal tone ring characterizes the sound of this model. The tone of this model has a clear outline and a small but clean sustain behind it to me. It has authentic tuners and is difficult to tune.

RB-18 REMO head-Grover bridge

 

Silvio Ferretti - Posted - 05/15/2022:  22:41:19

quote:

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Originally posted by Banjobailey72

I don't know what year it was made??? But I bought a GF200 1952 Classic Bowtie from Larry Mathis and I would put it against anything!!! At the time I could have bought basically any banjo I wanted and I picked several high end Gibsons,but I kept going back to the Goldstar...

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Hi James and all, I happen to be the guy who strongly suggested to Richard Keldsen (and to Saga's Project Manager at the time, Adrian Bagale - later of Northfield Mandolins fame) to build the GF-200 "1952" model. Gibson had just come out with the Classic '49, but I suggested the "1952" nickname because 1) Earl's banjo - in fact - did not have a bowtie fingerboard until way after 1949, and 2) 1952 is my birth year... The "1952" had the GF-200 neck shape, which I gave the specs for to Saga, and was supposed to come out of the factory with cam tuners, but this never happened because the China factory workers were not able to build a properly made cam tuner, so this part of the project never took place. Ditto for the one-piece resonator back veneer: Richard insisted that it had to be like the one on the regular GF-200. One thing I was able to keep in production for the "1952" was the Brazilian rosewood fingerboard, about 4mm thick, that the GF-200 already had, only with bowtie inlays.



I sort of worked with Saga - starting around 1981 - as a "secret dealer" for Italy, and did so until the mid-'80s )when several different reasons caused Saga to stop making banjos), so I played, bought, and sold all the models that were made. Toshi's "horse's mouth" narration is so complete that I actually don't have any title to saying more, but I will add a few details to the answers to the OP, also considering that I went back to work for Saga around 2005, when the new Gold Stars came out (GF-85 was the first reissue):



1) Gibson banjos mostly sucked at the time - in the late '70s - when the first REAL Gold Stars were made, i.e. the GF-85 and the GF-100 (the archtop GF-11 and GF-12 had a multiply rim, and were just Tokais with a different name on the peghead). The very popular RB-250 was a good banjo, but as for sounding good it was hit-and-miss, and its price was very high anyway, so it was no wonder that a banjo that was a Gibson copy, sounded great, and cost about 50% of an RB-250 would have success.



2) the reasons for the old Gold Stars sounding great from the word go are all explained in Toshi's post, so I'll say no more. However, as someone said, the neck were not very consistently made, and some of them were too big outright. Now, as Frank Neat once told me, maple is "more tolerant to thickness" than mahogany is, so some of the old GF-100s didn't sound that good - IMO and Neat's - because their mahogany neck was too big, and absorbed too much energy from the pot. Part of this negative effect (IMO) was due to the 6mm thick ebony fingerboard, which not only added weight to an already heavy banjo, but also acted as a mute somehow. Industrially convenient, sonically harmful. For the same reason, vice versa, the GF-85 (which had a slightly lighter tone ring, but sported a lighter rosewood fingerboard) sounded more consistently good, at least to my ear.

3) The GF-20JD, aka "Crowe Model", is a different story, and I'm not sure I truly understood it. I had one of the first ones made, and it was a lemon. The neck was poorly shaped, squarish, and too thick, and the finish was debatable to say the least. It sounded so-so, nothing comparable to the 1981 GF-100W (yes, like Tom Adams') that I had. I kept it for a couple years then sold it out of desperation. So quite frankly I never understood the mystique (and hype) about the "first 80 Crowe Models" made. Later on I bought another Crowe Model, got it in 1986 but it was made in 1984 (presumably during the time Saga couldn't use the name Gold Star). This one had a much better neck, great finish, and great sound. Still does, by the way.



4) Kentucky banjos - aka a Gold Star by a different name - were all great to me: their neck shape was more properly "prewar narrow but deep" shaped, they had a thinner ebony fingerboard with exquisite inlay work (Sumi was starting showing the banjo world that he already was a fine builder), and they sounded slightly better to me, possibly (just possibly) because of the pot metal flange, which may be responsible for a much desired dryness in tone and smoother but quick attack. Not many were made, I believe 1985 was the only year of production, but they sure played some role in the Gold Star craze of the '80s.

The fall of the Yen in the mid-'80s caused Saga to cease production of the Gold Stars, so the world never saw a few projects that they were developing - and starting to sell in small numbers - which would have given Gold Star more fame, for sure, like the GF-100A (I think this was its name), which was a one-piece flange archtop model, dry and mean sounding like a OPF archtop can be. I sold a couple of them, and they really sounded great even to a flatheader like me. Also a Béla Fleck big neck model (never produced), and a 6-string model with a Kirk-styled peghead, likewise never entered production. Then in 1986 the first Gibson Granada reissues came out, and they looked great and sounded great, and I knew that was the death toll for Gold Stars, in spite of the high prices that the new Gibson banjos commanded. After all, they were the original Mastertones - again.

steve davis - Posted - 05/16/2022:  08:23:38

The mahogany neck on my (new) '76 G-11 was very comfortable and a great shape.I "fixed" that banjo's multi-ply rim with a tube and plate 3 ply from Stewart McDonald and changed it further to a flat head (also StewMac) no-holes.

I loved the new voice that banjo then had.
I later bought a maple ('81) Gold Star with an uncomfortably thick maple neck.

Toshi Tsuchida - Posted - 05/21/2022:  09:05:09

It seemed difficult to make Americans understand in my words, so I tried to graphically summarize my knowledge of banjo utilizing the Covid-19 quarantine. The content is my personal opinion from my 45 (35 years as an engine and AT mission assembly engineer)years of experience and does not deny any of your thoughts. This includes a “Service Bulletin” that I personally publish on Vintage Gold Star banjo sound improvements. Prior to creating this, I tried new CAD software. Thankfully, I was able to manipulate the tools as I wanted and master them in one or two days. This was a buy.

Apart from this, I am not sure if you are interested in this but I am writing the story of the birth of the GOLD STAR Flat Head banjo and the story of the birth of the GOLD STAR JD Crowe model. Among them includes many photos of the specification meeting between JD Crowe and Mr. Keldsen at Tokai Musical Instruments in Hamamatsu, JD inspected a neck of Mr. Keldsen's RB-3 Bluegrass Album Band banjo, and a letter explaining the specifications from JD Crowe, the contents of the Kick-Off meeting, the process explanation of engraving and copper flash gold plating(I met Mr. Greg Rich in 2002 and he was curious about the process and seriously asked me how I managed to do. Mr. Russ Carson is as well), the production period, the number of units, etc. included. Which forum is better to post here or Collectors Corner?

See attached a pdf file for today topic.

TOSHI's miscellaneous NOTE May 2022

 

Ridgerunner - Posted - 06/19/2022:  15:19:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Toshi Tsuchida

It seemed difficult to make Americans understand in my words, so I tried to graphically summarize my knowledge of banjo utilizing the Covid-19 quarantine. The content is my personal opinion from my 45 (35 years as an engine and AT mission assembly engineer)years of experience and does not deny any of your thoughts. This includes a “Service Bulletin” that I personally publish on Vintage Gold Star banjo sound improvements. Prior to creating this, I tried new CAD software. Thankfully, I was able to manipulate the tools as I wanted and master them in one or two days. This was a buy.



Apart from this, I am not sure if you are interested in this but I am writing the story of the birth of the GOLD STAR Flat Head banjo and the story of the birth of the GOLD STAR JD Crowe model. Among them includes many photos of the specification meeting between JD Crowe and Mr. Keldsen at Tokai Musical Instruments in Hamamatsu, JD inspected a neck of Mr. Keldsen's RB-3 Bluegrass Album Band banjo, and a letter explaining the specifications from JD Crowe, the contents of the Kick-Off meeting, the process explanation of engraving and copper flash gold plating(I met Mr. Greg Rich in 2002 and he was curious about the process and seriously asked me how I managed to do. Mr. Russ Carson is as well), the production period, the number of units, etc. included. Which forum is better to post here or Collectors Corner?



See attached a pdf file for today topic.

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I found your information sheet very interesting.  I also look forward to reading the story of the birth of the Gold Star when you complete your writing.  I plan to implement your phase 1 Gold Star sound improvement test on my 1981 GF 100 FE.  Thank you very much for all you have given to we Gold Star fanatics.

steve davis - Posted - 06/20/2022:  12:29:10

My favorite Gold Star necks were the mahogany ones.A G-11 wreath,'78 G-85 and a 2004 85.The maple ones I had were thicker and less comfortable.

FenderFred - Posted - 06/20/2022:  15:05:29

quote:

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Originally posted by timacn

I understand that people who know a lot about banjos generally hold the old late 70s and early 80s Gold Star banjos in high regard. In the late 1970s, a very good professional player sold me his "backup banjo," a nice Ibanez Artist, because he wanted to get a Gold Star. I don't discount the attraction, but I've always wondered what's behind it.



My understanding is that aside from instruments like Stelling and Nechville, which have their own unique designs, Bluegrass Banjos based on the Gibson Mastertone are basically rims, tone rings, necks, flanges, resonators, and hardware, and aside from different woods, inlays, etc. they are all very similar in overall design. Is that correct? My understanding is also that many prestigious brands, including post circa 1940 Gibson Mastertones, obtained their parts from other manufacturers and assembled them into fine instruments. So if Gold Star banjos were also assembling their instruments from quality parts made by other people (and I assume they were) what made them so desirable? Did they use better parts than those on Ibanez Artist banjos? Was the fit and finish better? Some say the Gold Stars from that era were even better than Gibson Mastertones made in the same period. Anybody have an opinion on this? As always, thanks.



I understand that the whole is often greater than the sum of the parts, but if many banjo makers were using the same metal and wood parts, why was one banjo brand considered to be significantly better than another?

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I am guessing here. Tone, price and the endorsement of some big named professional players such as Tom Adams. As I recall when I started out a local banjo player recommended Gold Star to me but there was none to be had and I settled with a Fender FB 58 built in China. I have come to learn that banjo's are like people no two are exactly the same. 

Edited by - FenderFred on 06/20/2022 15:06:46

steve davis - Posted - 06/21/2022:  05:15:17

My first Goldie was hanging in the big front window of Buckdancer's Choice when it was way down on Commercial Street in Portland.I traded in a Ventura banjo (squashed frog flathead) and Ventura guitar (Hummingbird style) for it.