Mikegivney - Posted - 04/21/2022:  16:17:10

Hi all,
I have a question about G modal tuning and the scale that goes along with it. Say I’m playing “pretty little dog” in G Modal (gDGCD), which “mode” is this exactly? I’m trying to find the scale for this key (?) and have no idea what I’m doing on this one. Can someone help me out here?
Thanks
Mike

jack_beuthin - Posted - 04/21/2022:  17:17:44

I made a YouTube video titled "Open G versus Sawmill G tuning - Which to use, and why?" a few years ago.  I also cover the G major and G dorian scales in the video.  You may find it relevant to your questions.

youtube.com/watch?v=3Ixedsnd44Y

Pretty Little Dog is in the Dorian mode.  How is the G dorian scale different than the G major (ionian) scale?  If we use the G major scale as our reference point, just flatten the 3rd and the 7th notes of that scale and that will give you the G dorian scale.  All this is fully explored in my video.

Hope this provides some help.  You've asked some good questions here, and when you find your answers, you are going to gain some big insights.

rcc56 - Posted - 04/21/2022:  17:44:59

The G modal tuning can also be used for the G mixolydian mode [G A B C D E F-natural G]:  June Apple and Campbell's Farewell to Red Gap are 2 examples; or for several other minor modes.



I use the G modal tuning for Kitchen Girl, which has a first part in the mixolydian mode, and a second part in an indeterminate minor mode [indeterminate because the 6th scale degree isn't used in the second part].

Edited by - rcc56 on 04/21/2022 17:47:35

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/22/2022:  09:05:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mikegivney

Hi all,

I have a question about G modal tuning and the scale that goes along with it. Say I’m playing “pretty little dog” in G Modal (gDGCD), which “mode” is this exactly? I’m trying to find the scale for this key (?) and have no idea what I’m doing on this one. Can someone help me out here?

Thanks

Mike

---

Just to add a little bit to what Jack and Bob said above.  In theory, there are seven modes, and back when I was an archbishop's choir boy in Cincinnati, we sang plainsong chants in all of them.  But in traditional Appalachian music, you rarely hear a melody that falls outside of these four, in the order, IMO, of most common to least:



Ionian (today's Major):  G A B C D E F# G

Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G

Dorian: G A Bb C D E F G

Aeolian (today's Minor): G A Bb C D Eb F G

Note that the first two have a major third in the scale, while the last two have a minor scale; as a result, melodies in those have a "major" feel, while those in the last two feel "minor," with all of the emotional ramifications that entails.  When old time musicians talk about "modal" today, they are generally just using that as shorthand for Dorian or Aeolian mode, but technically, those scales are no more "modal" than the major scales.



Allow me to make a few points about what is sometimes called "modal ambiguity."  These will become more important as you progress, but need not be fretted about now:



1.  Many melodies do not use all 7 notes of a scale, in other words, they are not diatonic.  Sometimes it's called heptatonic.  A great many tunes and songs use only five (pentatonic) or six notes (hexatonic), and so you can't always nail down what mode they are in, as Bob pointed out above.

2.  Many melodies will use a major interval in one part of the tune, and a minor interval somewhere else.  Bob mentioned June Apple, where the A part uses a major third, while the B part uses a minor.  Sometimes, the intervals are swapped out within the same part.  A common occurance is in the way a lot of old time musicians play Old Joe Clark.  In the middle of the melody (in the key of G) they play an F natural, reflecting the Mixolydian mode, but when they get to the end of a phrase to resolve back to the tonic note, or "do", they use an F#. 

3.  In actual practice, many of the old time Appalachian musicians whose old recordings we slow down to figure out every note did not stick to the chromatic scale.  In other words, they routinely played notes that fall between the black and white keys of the piano, or the frets of your banjo.  This does not happen everywhere, it almost exclusively happens with the defining intervals of the mode.  So in G, they will play a note that falls somewhere between a Bb and a B, or somewhere between an F and an F#.  i say somewhere, because the note they hit is not always exactly halfway.  A great example of this is fiddler Henry Reed of Glen Lyn, Virginia, who was recorded by fiddler and musicologist Alan Jabbour for the Library of Congress in the late sixties.  Reed is the source for a lot of old time tunes that have become standards, including Kitchen Girl, Frosty Morning, and Over the Waterfall.  There are some who contend that this is just sloppy playing by an uneducated musician, but Reed is very consistent in his use of these so-called "neutral" tones, and it is unlikely that he did not do it deliberately.  It's why I switched to playing a semi-fretless banjo.

In fact, all three of the types of modal ambiguity I outlined have very ancient roots.  Our current modal classifications go back to the Middle Ages, and were devised by monks a millenium ago as they were transcribing for the first time the ancient plainsong melodies that are commonly called Gregorian chant.  Even those monks were aware that they were putting a very round peg in a very square whole.  Even the names of the modes, borrowed by the monks from even more ancient Greek texts, were essentially guesses based on general descriptions of the characteristics of the Greek modes, because they Greeks had no unambiguous notation system for their music. What was true of the ancient chants is also true of our traditional Appalachian ballads and fiddle tunes.  In our southern mountains, these old, old practices continued long after our popular music became modernized.



Don't memorize any of this, just play your banjo, and rely on your ear.  As time goes on, you will get used to it.  Just like every old time musician that came before us.

 

Edited by - Don Borchelt on 04/22/2022 09:11:21

jojo25 - Posted - 04/22/2022:  10:59:49

"modal"...at first you learn what you think it means...then you learn about how much you do not know...the old 'the more you know the more you realize there is even more you don't know"...everything is "modal"...I saw/heard Molly Mason explain this once...using the piano...play a C major scale....which uses only white keys...then play a different scale...starting on a D...and also use only the white keys...that is a different, second mode...then continue...start on E...again use only white keys...that is a third mode...continue this process...always using only white keys...until you get back to C...each of those scales uses a different sequence of whole and half steps...and it is these step patterns that define the modes...their names... Dorian, Hypodorian, Phrygian, Hypophrygian, Lydian, Hypolydian, and Mixolydian...but that is only part of the story...there is so much more to know...I think I'll just go listen to Trane's Giant Steps and try to clean the house and get warm and dry...maybe even play some banjo:)

banjoak - Posted - 04/22/2022:  17:59:39

Just to point out that a tuning isn't scale/mode, or necessarily has a single scale/mode that goes with it. 

That said, gDGCD is most useful for G Dorain, G Mixolydian, or G Aeolian (minor). 

But can be used sometimes for others keys/modes.  

---------

To add: Tuning, having the second string as C and first sting as D (wholestep apart)... works out well for many tunes (other keys and tunings); perhaps esp using drop thumb.

One other aspect for the key of G; it places less emphasis on the major/minor third sound.

Edited by - banjoak on 04/22/2022 18:11:26

John Yerxa - Posted - 04/22/2022:  22:22:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mikegivney

Hi all,

I have a question about G modal tuning and the scale that goes along with it. Say I’m playing “pretty little dog” in G Modal (gDGCD), which “mode” is this exactly? I’m trying to find the scale for this key (?) and have no idea what I’m doing on this one. Can someone help me out here?

Thanks

Mike

---

Just to add a little bit to what Jack and Bob said above.  In theory, there are seven modes, and back when I was an archbishop's choir boy in Cincinnati, we sang plainsong chants in all of them.  But in traditional Appalachian music, you rarely hear a melody that falls outside of these four, in the order, IMO, of most common to least:



Ionian (today's Major):  G A B C D E F# G

Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G

Dorian: G A Bb C D E F G

Aeolian (today's Minor): G A Bb C D Eb F G

Note that the first two have a major third in the scale, while the last two have a minor scale; as a result, melodies in those have a "major" feel, while those in the last two feel "minor," with all of the emotional ramifications that entails.  When old time musicians talk about "modal" today, they are generally just using that as shorthand for Dorian or Aeolian mode, but technically, those scales are no more "modal" than the major scales.



Allow me to make a few points about what is sometimes called "modal ambiguity."  These will become more important as you progress, but need not be fretted about now:



1.  Many melodies do not use all 7 notes of a scale, in other words, they are not diatonic.  Sometimes it's called heptatonic.  A great many tunes and songs use only five (pentatonic) or six notes (hexatonic), and so you can't always nail down what mode they are in, as Bob pointed out above.

2.  Many melodies will use a major interval in one part of the tune, and a minor interval somewhere else.  Bob mentioned June Apple, where the A part uses a major third, while the B part uses a minor.  Sometimes, the intervals are swapped out within the same part.  A common occurance is in the way a lot of old time musicians play Old Joe Clark.  In the middle of the melody (in the key of G) they play an F natural, reflecting the Mixolydian mode, but when they get to the end of a phrase to resolve back to the tonic note, or "do", they use an F#. 

3.  In actual practice, many of the old time Appalachian musicians whose old recordings we slow down to figure out every note did not stick to the chromatic scale.  In other words, they routinely played notes that fall between the black and white keys of the piano, or the frets of your banjo.  This does not happen everywhere, it almost exclusively happens with the defining intervals of the mode.  So in G, they will play a note that falls somewhere between a Bb and a B, or somewhere between an F and an F#.  i say somewhere, because the note they hit is not always exactly halfway.  A great example of this is fiddler Henry Reed of Glen Lyn, Virginia, who was recorded by fiddler and musicologist Alan Jabbour for the Library of Congress in the late sixties.  Reed is the source for a lot of old time tunes that have become standards, including Kitchen Girl, Frosty Morning, and Over the Waterfall.  There are some who contend that this is just sloppy playing by an uneducated musician, but Reed is very consistent in his use of these so-called "neutral" tones, and it is unlikely that he did not do it deliberately.  It's why I switched to playing a semi-fretless banjo.

In fact, all three of the types of modal ambiguity I outlined have very ancient roots.  Our current modal classifications go back to the Middle Ages, and were devised by monks a millenium ago as they were transcribing for the first time the ancient plainsong melodies that are commonly called Gregorian chant.  Even those monks were aware that they were putting a very round peg in a very square whole.  Even the names of the modes, borrowed by the monks from even more ancient Greek texts, were essentially guesses based on general descriptions of the characteristics of the Greek modes, because they Greeks had no unambiguous notation system for their music. What was true of the ancient chants is also true of our traditional Appalachian ballads and fiddle tunes.  In our southern mountains, these old, old practices continued long after our popular music became modernized.



Don't memorize any of this, just play your banjo, and rely on your ear.  As time goes on, you will get used to it.  Just like every old time musician that came before us.

 

---

Don, this is the most cogent succinct explanation of this topic I've ever seen.  Historical context is fascinating. Thank you.

I play fretted banjos, but often reach for those "ambiguous" notes with an incomplete slide or a bend.

Don Borchelt - Posted - 04/23/2022:  07:24:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by John Yerxa

 

Don, this is the most cogent succinct explanation of this topic I've ever seen.  Historical context is fascinating. Thank you.  I play fretted banjos, but often reach for those "ambiguous" notes with an incomplete slide or a bend.

---

Thank you John, I appreciate that. The banjos I regularly use are semi-fretless, in my case, fretless up to the 5th fret. I play a lot up the neck, and the higher up you go, I found it difficult to get correct intonation on a full fretless banjo, so about 25 years ago, I switched to semi-fretless.  When I am playing up the neck, I will usually get those neutral tones by choking, just the way you do. In those situations where the neutral note is very close to either the higher or lower chromatic scale note, I will just use the chromatic note.  

Mikegivney - Posted - 04/23/2022:  08:07:03

I am astonished and even more so thankful for the knowledge in this group. I appreciate the time you all took to expound on the topic.
I think I am starting to , barely, get a grasp on the theory. Being a beginner starting to slide into being comfortable playing what I hear, I think spending a bit of time exploring the modes with banjo in hand will do wonders for the grasp of it.
You have greatly helped in my journey!

Mike

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/24/2022:  11:32:33

Don is correct and savvy about this stuff--listen to him and then chuck it and play the banjo

 

---

Originally posted by Don Borchelt

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mikegivney

Hi all,

I have a question about G modal tuning and the scale that goes along with it. Say I’m playing “pretty little dog” in G Modal (gDGCD), which “mode” is this exactly? I’m trying to find the scale for this key (?) and have no idea what I’m doing on this one. Can someone help me out here?

Thanks

Mike

---

Just to add a little bit to what Jack and Bob said above.  In theory, there are seven modes, and back when I was an archbishop's choir boy in Cincinnati, we sang plainsong chants in all of them.  But in traditional Appalachian music, you rarely hear a melody that falls outside of these four, in the order, IMO, of most common to least:



Ionian (today's Major):  G A B C D E F# G

Mixolydian: G A B C D E F G

Dorian: G A Bb C D E F G

Aeolian (today's Minor): G A Bb C D Eb F G

Note that the first two have a major third in the scale, while the last two have a minor scale; as a result, melodies in those have a "major" feel, while those in the last two feel "minor," with all of the emotional ramifications that entails.  When old time musicians talk about "modal" today, they are generally just using that as shorthand for Dorian or Aeolian mode, but technically, those scales are no more "modal" than the major scales.



Allow me to make a few points about what is sometimes called "modal ambiguity."  These will become more important as you progress, but need not be fretted about now:



1.  Many melodies do not use all 7 notes of a scale, in other words, they are not diatonic.  Sometimes it's called heptatonic.  A great many tunes and songs use only five (pentatonic) or six notes (hexatonic), and so you can't always nail down what mode they are in, as Bob pointed out above.

2.  Many melodies will use a major interval in one part of the tune, and a minor interval somewhere else.  Bob mentioned June Apple, where the A part uses a major third, while the B part uses a minor.  Sometimes, the intervals are swapped out within the same part.  A common occurance is in the way a lot of old time musicians play Old Joe Clark.  In the middle of the melody (in the key of G) they play an F natural, reflecting the Mixolydian mode, but when they get to the end of a phrase to resolve back to the tonic note, or "do", they use an F#. 

3.  In actual practice, many of the old time Appalachian musicians whose old recordings we slow down to figure out every note did not stick to the chromatic scale.  In other words, they routinely played notes that fall between the black and white keys of the piano, or the frets of your banjo.  This does not happen everywhere, it almost exclusively happens with the defining intervals of the mode.  So in G, they will play a note that falls somewhere between a Bb and a B, or somewhere between an F and an F#.  i say somewhere, because the note they hit is not always exactly halfway.  A great example of this is fiddler Henry Reed of Glen Lyn, Virginia, who was recorded by fiddler and musicologist Alan Jabbour for the Library of Congress in the late sixties.  Reed is the source for a lot of old time tunes that have become standards, including Kitchen Girl, Frosty Morning, and Over the Waterfall.  There are some who contend that this is just sloppy playing by an uneducated musician, but Reed is very consistent in his use of these so-called "neutral" tones, and it is unlikely that he did not do it deliberately.  It's why I switched to playing a semi-fretless banjo.

In fact, all three of the types of modal ambiguity I outlined have very ancient roots.  Our current modal classifications go back to the Middle Ages, and were devised by monks a millenium ago as they were transcribing for the first time the ancient plainsong melodies that are commonly called Gregorian chant.  Even those monks were aware that they were putting a very round peg in a very square whole.  Even the names of the modes, borrowed by the monks from even more ancient Greek texts, were essentially guesses based on general descriptions of the characteristics of the Greek modes, because they Greeks had no unambiguous notation system for their music. What was true of the ancient chants is also true of our traditional Appalachian ballads and fiddle tunes.  In our southern mountains, these old, old practices continued long after our popular music became modernized.



Don't memorize any of this, just play your banjo, and rely on your ear.  As time goes on, you will get used to it.  Just like every old time musician that came before us.

 

---

Bronx banjo - Posted - 04/26/2022:  11:56:46

I wonder why gDGCD is called G modal tuning when it has nothing to do with the Mixolydian mode. The G mode is the same as the major scale with exception of the flatted 7th. If anything, it should be called G suspended 4 tuning because the C note is the fourth degree of the G scale.

Lew H - Posted - 04/26/2022:  12:21:28

Bronx banjo "G suspended 4 tuning" can be shortened to "G sus tuning" in everyday talk, and that sounds like a sacred tuning. Which it isn't!

250gibson - Posted - 04/26/2022:  19:55:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bronx banjo

I wonder why gDGCD is called G modal tuning when it has nothing to do with the Mixolydian mode. The G mode is the same as the major scale with exception of the flatted 7th. If anything, it should be called G suspended 4 tuning because the C note is the fourth degree of the G scale.

---

I think because in standard G tuning (gDGBD) it is easier to play the major modes and in G minor tuning (gDGBbD) it is easier to play the minor modes. Tuning to gDGCD makes it neither major nor minor due to the absence of the third, therefore easier to play all of the modes. The G hexatonic scale as pointed out before does not have 3rd degree at all therefore modal ambiguous.