Mary9398 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  07:13:56

Need help choosing a lightweight 5 string resonator banjo with tone ring. I'd like to stay under 9 pounds if possible. My budget is around $800. If possible I would like one with a tone ring, not hoop. To be perfectly honest, I have zero experience playing or hearing a banjo with a wood ring but the thought makes me a little antsy. (Not saying no, just saying my mind is having a hard time wrapping around that one!) One more thing, because I'm a moron I guess, I do not like the look of the really light wood banjos. I am open to new or used, I'd actually prefer used. I have found a GoldTone BG150f and a Deering Blackgrass Special that are both used and in my price range. Any advice on either of those, or any other brand, would be appreciated.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 02/21/2022:  07:38:06

quote:

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Originally posted by Mary9398

I have found a GoldTone BG150f and a Deering Blackgrass Special that are both used and in my price range.

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Depends on what you mean by tone hoop. The BG150 has I believe a rolled brass tone ring which some call a tone hoop. I'm not sure what the Goodtime Special tone ring looks like. I think it's some sort of steel hoop but larger than a rolled brass tone ring.

This is the BG150 ring:

goldtonemusicgroup.com/goldton...dvid=7112

Edited by - GrahamHawker on 02/21/2022 07:39:26

thisoldman - Posted - 02/21/2022:  07:58:02

If getting the sound of a resonator banjo with a quality tone ring as your goal, then I'm thinking the 2 banjos you are looking at are not going to get you there. The Blackgrass "Special" does have a tone ring, but probably won't meet your lightweight criteria. You can get a quality (metal) tone ring or a lightweight banjo, but not both.

If you're not totally commited to a resonator banjo, an open back banjo with a tone ring might come close to meeting both of your criteria.

Welcome to the HO. BTW, I am not a fan of light colored banjos either; no shame in that.  What kind of music do you want to learn to play?

Edited by - thisoldman on 02/21/2022 07:59:39

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  08:12:04

I'm playing bluegrass so I prefer the resonator. I'm looking to upgrade from my $160 starter banjo. I won't be playing any gigs. Ever. However, I will sit in the garage and play with people that are on guitars. I need something with a better tone and that is a bit louder. I am aware that my weight limit does limit my choices greatly. I had an opportunity to play a bit on someone's RK35 or 36 and wish that the weight of that wasn't an issue.

Wayne2001 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  08:19:09

If weight is a main issue you might look for one with a wood tone ring. I think they sound great but you might have trouble finding one in your price range.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/21/2022:  08:39:49

Welcome to the Hangout.

The RK35/36 weigh what they do because they have a true Mastertone style tone ring that weighs about 3 pounds. No light weight banjo claiming to have a tone ring has a true tone ring such as that. They have some type of hoop -- either a flat bar or a round rod rolled and soldered into an 11-inch circle.

The BG150F has that type of lightweight ring. If you can spring for $100 more, you might consider the newest BG150F. It has some design changes, including a slimmer neck, that make it better than before. Read about them at banjoteacher.com and consider buying from Ross. I don't know if he includes a case. That could matter.

If you don't think the changes in the BG150F are worth the extra money, then consider a Recording King RK-20 (RK-R20). I believe it is structurally the same as the BG-150F but costs only  $600 new. Case extra, unless you find a dealer throwing in the case. These should be available for under $500 used. So give them a look. I expect the neck to be the same as the previous version of the BG-150F.

If the other banjo you mention is a Goodtime its tone ring will be more than a hoop but less than full weight. It's steel and is not the same size as a Mastertone ring. I do not recommend spending $800 on a Goodtime for anyone looking for an upgrade. Even if weight is a factor. It's a beginner instrument with more features than the banjo-shaped object you're currently playing. But possibly fewer hooks.

Down the road, you could truly upgrade your BG-150F or RK-20 with a better wood rim and maybe a "pyramid" style tone ring or tube style ring or Whyte Lady ring and also have a luthier trim away some of the excess wood beyond the 22nd fret. This would cost many hundreds of dollars, but there's no telling what a better banjo will cost in the future. There's no meaningful way to upgrade a Goodtime as far as I know other than to sell and replace it.

Good luck.

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  08:58:37

Funny you should mention the new BG150F on banjo teacher. I literally have a tab open to that. I'm near Elderly instruments and am considering wandering in there to check out their Gold Tone BG-Mini and other used banjos to see if any others fit my bill.

TLG - Posted - 02/21/2022:  09:38:12

Mary,
You should consider a VEGA Tubaphone resonator 5 string, a modern version not a vintage. I am currently making a banjo for a lady using that ring. It's lighter weight, sounds great & about in your price range. I am currently playing a highly modified 1960's pot with a new Tubaphone & custom neck myself & I play bluegrass , clear notes up & down the neck , sweet tone, ect.
Just an option.
Tom

Culloden - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:05:30

Don't downplay the sound of a rolled brass ring, they can sound quite good when the banjo is set up properly. I built a banjo out of kit parts that I bought piecemeal, and it will hold its own with many banjos that have real tone rings. Plus, it only weighs 8 pounds.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:14:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Mary9398

Funny you should mention the new BG150F on banjo teacher. I literally have a tab open to that. I'm near Elderly instruments and am considering wandering in there to check out their Gold Tone BG-Mini and other used banjos to see if any others fit my bill.

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That's great. Have fun at Elderly!  The web view of their inventory doesn't show a lot in stock that might interest you. Possibly the Recording King Dirty 30s for $400. But that's really another beginner's instrument. It has 24 hooks and nuts and a notched and thicker tension hoop than any Goodtime. But it has a multi-ply rim instead of the 3-ply maple of the Goodtime. On the one hand, not much of a step up from you currently own. On the other hand, one that can be tinkered with a bit more probably to sound better than your current banjo. Down the road, you could probably sell it for 66 to 75 percent of the then-current price of a new one.

This banjo could also be easily upgraded in the future with a 3-ply rim and one of the tone rings I mentioned above, such as the pyramid.  Again: That upgrade would cost hundreds of dollars. It would only be worth doing to a Dirty Thirties if you really liked the neck and resonator. You'd end up with a great sounding banjo that would be worth less the investment you have in it. So don't mind me thinking out loud of ways to pour money into a banjo!

Now that I think about it, I like the idea of getting a used Dirty Thirties for as little as possible and making those modifications. You could end up with a real Goodtime killer for maybe the cost of a Goodtime. Again: don't mind me. Just having some banjo money pit fun.

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:21:27

I don't mind your musings. In fact they are helpful! If you have more then keep them coming.

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:24:34

I'm going to change the question up a little bit. What's the lightest weight banjo with tone ring for $800. I could up that a little but $1000 would be a stretch.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:25:51

To tag onto what Mark says about rolled brass tone rings, I just want to clarify something:  The point of my earlier comment about the tone ring in lightweight banjos being a hoop was to make clear that's what you get even if the manufacturer doesn't call it that.  Also to clarify that while Mary wanted a tone ring instead of a hoop, the Gold Tone she's considering has a hoop that Gold Tone calls a tone ring. Which is not inaccurate.

I didn't mean to imply that flatbar hoops or rods can't sound good. I think Gold Tone Cripple Creek banjos are pretty good sounding student instruments and I'm sure it's because of the hoop.

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:35:29

Thank you for the clarification regarding hoop vs ring. I should probably clarify too. I'd prefer a ring but am not opposed to a hoop. Especially since I know that my need for lightweight limits choices a lot. I would also like to get out of the 'student banjo' category. I will never play a gig so professional isn't a requirement and I would only go to a pro one if I stumbled across one that was in my same price range. Ideally I'd like my next banjo to be one that could last me for life. (If, by some miracle, I resist the banjo acquisition bug!) I'm more looking at not getting myself something that will be quickly outgrown. Unfortunately no one I know plays banjo, they are all guitar players. My only way of getting my hands on a different one to try in person is to go to Elderly Instruments or a Guitar Center that is nearby. I only got my hands on the Recording King by accident because I walked past a random person playing one and asked if they like it. They were nice enough to hand it to me to try.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/21/2022:  10:42:27

quote:

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Originally posted by Mary9398

I'm going to change the question up a little bit. What's the lightest weight banjo with tone ring for $800. I could up that a little but $1000 would be a stretch.

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If you mean the hoop style tone ring -- even though the maker doesn't call it that -- I think the Gold Tone BG-150F you're considering and the structurally similar Recording King RK-R20 that I mentioned before fit the bill in new instruments.

A Gold Tone Cripple Creek CC50RP (Resonator plus Planetary tuners) for between $550-$600 would be a lightweight banjo with a rod or flatbar ring.  It's another beginner instrument, but probably better than you now have. See what you think.

I don't follow this level or category of instrument enough to know what's the best sounding banjo such as you're describing.

The best sounding lightweight banjos I've ever played are not made any more. At the affordable end was the Recording King "Madison" RK-R25 resonator banjo. All-wood 3-ply rim. No metal ring of any kind. You wouldn't know it hear it.  Out of production for 7 or 8 years now. Rarely turn up used. At the higher end is a pre-war Gibson RB-00 sub-Mastertone banjo also with no metal ring of any kind. The one I played at Retrofret in Brooklyn was $4500!  Around the same time, you could buy a 4-string TB-00, or one that had already been converted to 5-string, for about half that. The one I played was an all-original 5-string, making it rare and valuable. And Retrofret was a top-dollar seller.

Edited to add:  I was off-line composing this when you posted your message. Some of what I wrote clearly doesn't apply, but I'm leaving it here for the record.

I like some of the other suggestions above. It may well be that at Elderly you find a vintage instrument that exactly fills the bill. I have no idea what banjos are available at what prices with Tube-a-Phone or Whyte-Lady tone rings.  These are heavier than hoops,  but lighter than Mastertone rings, and sound great.

I do believe there's not much new in your price range. And the pandemic has created a seller's market as many people have taken up instruments to fill time while quarantining. So used prices have increased in the past two years. We've been discussing that elsewhere.

Good luck. Have fun shopping.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 02/21/2022 10:53:34

gcpicken - Posted - 02/21/2022:  12:48:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Mary9398

Funny you should mention the new BG150F on banjo teacher. I literally have a tab open to that. I'm near Elderly instruments and am considering wandering in there to check out their Gold Tone BG-Mini and other used banjos to see if any others fit my bill.

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OMG -Don't bother them at Elderly Instruments! (kidding) They are supposed to be working on my RB-250! 

But do report back on the BG150F. I want something lighter for longer practices, so the tone is not a big issue. As I tire, I slouch and that changes the plane of the banjo relative to my fingers. So for me, playability more is more important than sound, I'd like it to play like a RB-250 or better yet a Bishline, which is the one I mostly play.

Edited by - gcpicken on 02/21/2022 12:53:25

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/21/2022:  13:11:25

quote:

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Originally posted by gcpicken

I want something lighter for longer practices, so the tone is not a big issue. As I tire, I slouch and that changes the plane of the banjo relative to my fingers. So for me, playability more is more important than sound, I'd like it to play like a RB-250 or better yet a Bishline, which is the one I mostly play.

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Neck profiles are all over the place. Don't know which RB-250 you have, but 50s necks are different from 70s are different from 80s and beyond. And the one Bishline I've played didn't immediately remind me of a Gibsonneck. But I could be wrong.

If tone doesn't matter and you want a smallish neck profile, then you probably can't go wrong with a new or used Dirty Thirties resonator model. I bet with a good setup and upgraded bridge, it could sound pretty good.

gcpicken - Posted - 02/21/2022:  20:54:12

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by gcpicken

I want something lighter for longer practices, so the tone is not a big issue. As I tire, I slouch and that changes the plane of the banjo relative to my fingers. So for me, playability more is more important than sound, I'd like it to play like a RB-250 or better yet a Bishline, which is the one I mostly play.

---

Neck profiles are all over the place. Don't know which RB-250 you have, but 50s necks are different from 70s are different from 80s and beyond. And the one Bishline I've played didn't immediately remind me of a Gibsonneck. But I could be wrong.

If tone doesn't matter and you want a smallish neck profile, then you probably can't go wrong with a new or used Dirty Thirties resonator model. I bet with a good setup and upgraded bridge, it could sound pretty good.

You are correct, the Bishline neck I would describe as “faster”. The RB-250, which is an ‘83, is chunkier.  And both weigh a ton.

Thank you for your input. Appreciated.

Helix - Posted - 02/22/2022:  02:55:55

Hi Mary, welcome to the hangout.



Please tell us what you are playing right now. What brand, what model.



Splitting hairs about tone ring or tone hoop is less than informative.

The rolled flatbar has a 90 degree edge on it so it contacts the rim on both the back and bottom of ring, this allows the sound to go directly to the rim through the bridge head continuum.

and they use an interference fit where you smack it on with the heel of your hand. Presses cause too much strangulation.



The BG 150-f is a fine bluegrass offering with great neck and hardware.



The cheapest and lightest way to go is to let me do a rim changeout for $275. Then, later, people come back and let me make them a custom neck. Soon you will develop more of your personal specs.



How many guitars are you jamming with? 7 is called a "clinic."



My rim is a radical departure rim, there's about 150 out there that I built, others I assist. Trademarked since 2007.



I am the only one building with Bamboo. They are called Jackrabbits for a reason. Resonators weigh one pound. My spoons weigh 3/4 of that. The Bamboo weight is 6+ pounds with the rez and ring.



I have ten bamboo out there being played by road warriors and jolly other people. the blond Bamboo has been discontinued, but the new "Amber" is fine. A dark finish is totally part of the changeout, so is set up.



I play my own banjos on stage, I jam frequently and often, so my laboratory is all the major brands and models of those both factory built and custom.

That's how I know Gold Tone BG150-f can compete better

If you are happy with your present neck, then putting some meat with those potatoes would be the musician's option.

Oops, there are no used Helix available.  I have Jackrabbit #006, the owner moved up to Black Walnut.

Edited by - Helix on 02/22/2022 03:01:36

Mahogany, Grapefruit, Cherry, Cherry, Hickory, Red Oak, Chestnut

 

banjopaolo - Posted - 02/22/2022:  03:46:09

Hi Mary, Welcome to the hangout!

I play a lightweight banjo with a wooden flahead tone rim by Tony Pass, that means that three is not metal tone ring but the wooden rim had the same shape of a mastertone flathead tone ring...
Of course the sound it’s not the same, but I like it very much, I play mostly clawhammer (so my banjo is open back) but the suond is good also on three finger picking...

You may consider something like this...

VIDEO: Mountain Path
(click to view)

 

banjopaolo - Posted - 02/22/2022:  03:54:08

tonypassbanjorims.com/rims.html

Eric A - Posted - 02/22/2022:  04:51:11

If you live near Elderly the best thing to do is just go there and try a lot of banjos. If it's in your price range, pick it up. If too heavy, put it down. If not too heavy, play it. If it sounds good, buy it. Don't worry about the specs. If the price, weight, and sound are right, it's right.

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/22/2022:  07:11:09

To answer Helix’s question regarding the make and model I’m playing now. It’s a ‘pos 2000’ aka RW Jameson $160 banjo. Surprisingly, I do not regret the purchase. I made it knowing it was basically a ‘throw away’ banjo. If I discovered that playing banjo wasn’t for me I wouldn’t be out much. I used knowing I’d need an upgrade as a reward for practicing. My biggest beef is it’s weight, 9.6 pounds. I tend to have issues with my left shoulder and this thing is killing me. While I can play this banjo, a slightly narrower neck would be better. Reasons I want an upgrade: (1) it’s a $160 banjo, I probably don’t need to say more, but will. (2) I need something that is a little louder. If my husband plays his acoustic guitar next to me it really drowns out the banjo. (3) Prior to this banjo I had zero experience tuning an instrument. I have to tune this banjo every time. I was never frustrated by that. I took it as valuable learning experience and am now pretty good at tuning quickly. I’d just like to not have to anymore. (4) If I I ask my husband a question about doing something right or something sounding right he’ll play it on my banjo. I have yet to get my banjo back in under an hour! Clearly this man needs a banjo, he can have this one.

After everyone’s input I think I’m going to look for a better banjo but not worry about a tone ring right now. I’m hoping to find a used recording king rk25. Since that’s been discontinued I’m not going to hold my breath. I also plan on checking out the dirty thirties at Elderly. I’ll play that until I feel I’ve earned another reward and have a bigger banjo budget. Then I’ll look for a wood tone ring or hit up Helix regarding a custom one. Just so I can have a general idea, what should my savings goal be at for a good wood tone ring or Helix custom banjo?

jason999 - Posted - 02/22/2022:  08:02:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mary9398

Funny you should mention the new BG150F on banjo teacher. I literally have a tab open to that. I'm near Elderly instruments and am considering wandering in there to check out their Gold Tone BG-Mini and other used banjos to see if any others fit my bill.

---

I have a BG Mini. It's a cool little banjo, but it's not the same as a full size banjo.

The RK25 is a great banjo, if you can find one. That was one of the best low cost banjos going, in my opinion. 

Helix - Posted - 02/23/2022:  05:59:09

Mean Mary has a new video here. "This nine pound banjo is a little bit heavy"



I volunteer at an acoustic music showcase coffeehouse.



"Down in the Holler," is a duo of young people playing older material and written "old" songs.

They use a Gold Tone Cripple Creek. I see the BG-150s at the jams. I have a recent thread praising Gold Tone's plastic AC-1, no tone ring needed, they used the right plastic and got great results. I put a Cherry rim on one recently. A resonator is an easy install.

You can upgrade your neck with Planetary tuners and lose your old rim for reassembly later, but is sounds like you still need the beater. 

My Intermediates start at $777 +$50 case and $50 shipping, so $877 shipped. 

I have a used Bamboo #006 with me, 6 lbs. and spoons. I use 18 hooks, Gold Tone has the armrest for that.  The owner went to another Helix of Black Walnut. Note no used Helix available. 

Pros start at $1000, $1100 shipped. People choose their own inlays.



I'm a Recording King dealer, I confer with people off forum frequently, I have plenty of work, so this isn't a sales message.

I recently turned around two rim changeouts in two weeks each. Oops.



All of the "woodies" are bigger builders responding to the crushing weight of bronze 3 hours later. They will hype you about their product "tasting just like chicken." We all know it's squirrely, it's about them wanting to sell you what they make.

Edited by - Helix on 02/23/2022 06:14:44

Helix Hurricane #001 in Battle

Mary9398 - Posted - 02/23/2022:  07:43:46

Thank you SO much for all your information Helix. In fact, thanks to everyone. I’ve been given a lot of valuable information. I have found this site to be a valuable source of information and have consulted it numerous times since playing.

I managed to find a used rk25. I’ll upgrade myself to that and practice myself to another reward. I’ll probably want to go with a Helix pro set up so I’ll start adding to the future banjo fund for that. That means no retirement for Helix LOL.

Helix - Posted - 02/23/2022:  09:50:55

You got just right banjo.  Way to go

Edited by - Helix on 02/23/2022 09:58:00

mrbook - Posted - 02/23/2022:  14:45:10

After some heart problems and a 4X bypass four years ago I have usually only used my regular tone ring banjos when sitting down or when only playing a few songs. I had bought a Recording King R25R when they were closed out sometime before my operation, and I have been playing it most of the time ever since. Don't overlook these banjos with a wooden rim - mine sounds pretty good (some experienced players with very expensive banjos liked it, and one even wanted to make a trade) , and my band still says the banjo is too loud. I don't think twice about playing it anywhere, and all I did was set it up and add a new bridge because the original was broken in shipping. I have recently acquired a Bishline Patriot and Flatiron Montana Rose, both very nice lighter banjos with tone hoops, but I will still be playing the RK. They are not easy to find, but are right in your price range, and there was also an RK50 available for a short time with a wood rim.

TheWoodBoss - Posted - 02/24/2022:  12:45:45

A tone hoop banjo is probably out of your price range. They are light and sound excellent. I would put my Yates LM-100 with a 1920s tone hoop against any banjo with a tone ring, and at 8 lbs its a dream to play. The Deering Black Grass Special (I had a Deering Artisan Goodtime Special) you mentioned has a steel tone ring and sounds nice for $800 and it is in that price range you are looking. Deering banjos have great necks and are perfect for someone wanting to step up and get to playing. The recording kings have a good reputation here but I cannot comment on them since I never played one but I'm sure they are not 8 lbs having a brass tone ring. If you feel you want a bright sounding banjo with a silky smooth neck get the Deering, if you want something heavy that has a brass tone ring get the Recording King. Good Luck.