coolet5 - Posted - 01/28/2022:  15:18:54

Hello knowledgeable people!



My stelling banjo has a few scratches on the fingerboard from what I've been told was a result of a fret job gone kinda wrong (other than that the neck is just fine). I took it to a luthier in the area and she (Yay!) told me that other than the scratches, the neck is bent and as a result, up the neck area tend to be very punchy, (sort of like a slap technique on the bass) I agree about that, I thought it was just my technique that I need to work on but apparently it`s a setup issue.



She says I`ll need a higher bridge because if I`ll straight the neck it will be an even lower action near that area. So my questions are:

What bridge shall I get? she offered a bridge for 15 dollars but I think a Stelling deserves a better one.

I also like a low action. Is that going to make it high-action?



Thanks.

Edited by - coolet5 on 01/28/2022 15:19:50

beegee - Posted - 01/28/2022:  15:43:46

Bridge choices are highly personal. I'm kinda confused about the "luthier's" diagnosis. Step one is to get the fingerboard flat and true, even if it was recently re-fretted. It may mean a complete re-fret/leveling job. Once the neck is true, you can then attack the problem of bridge height/action.

As to the quality of the bridge, I use Scorpion, Kat-Eyez, Snuffy, primarily, although I have bridges from most major makers.I choose a bridge based on how it makes the banjo sound. And that is a factor that involves action height, string gauge, tailpiece type and adjustment, head type and tension, co-rod adjustment, and tone ring fit.

There is no way a simple bridge substitute will make a substantial difference if all other factors are not addressed.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/28/2022:  16:54:27

Noted. I’m going to wait and see how she fixes those scratches and take it from there.

stelldeergibber - Posted - 01/28/2022:  17:07:42

I agree with Beegee. When you say the neck is bent, my first thought is that it's warped or bowed somewhere in the middle. The only other way I can reasonably suspect a "bend" is where it is affixed to the banjo, which would just be a bad heel cut or a need for shimming, or both. They can also "backbow" but that's unlikely. So the first thing is to figure that part out, (don't be talked out of straightening!)then decide on a bridge. I also like Beegee's choices, two more possibilities are Sullivan and Wadsworth. You will have to try some of these yourself to figure out which one sounds best, it's an easy and fun experiment, but that's why most of us have a few more bridges than banjos.

Alvin Conder - Posted - 01/28/2022:  17:23:03

The luthiers diagnosis is highly suspect. Reasons posted above by BeeGee and Sean. Your best bet, if there is a neck issue is to get the banjo to an actual BANJO luthier. Guitar luthiers/repair people usually do not understand the first thing about banjos.

If you let us know what city/state you are in, we maybe can point you in the right direction. Having someone who does not know banjos mess with a quality instrument like a Stelling may not be the best approach.

From what I’m hearing or reading is that the truss rod needs adjustment or the neck needs a reset.

Best to get a second look on the instrument and take it from there.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/28/2022:  17:29:04

I’m in New York City.
At this point she’s only fixing the scratches. I couldn’t find any banjo specific luthier here. If you guys know someone please let know.

Cheers.

beegee - Posted - 01/28/2022:  18:10:20

Do a luthier search on Banjo Hangout. There is one in Brooklyn, several others in NY.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/28/2022:  18:26:57

Thanks, I’ll contact the guy in Brooklyn and see what he has to offer.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 01/28/2022:  18:53:13

Stellings are set up in the factory with an 11/16" bridge, as opposed to the 5/8" bridge that most other banjos are set up with. So unless the original factory set-up of your Stelling has been modified to accommodate a different bridge size, or your luthier intends to modify the set-up in such a way, that is the bridge size your Stelling requires.

What kind of bridge is on the banjo now? What size is it? Do you know whether your banjo's original set-up has been changed? Is your luthier aware of Stelling factory specs? And what does she mean by "the neck is bent"? I'm guessing that she's talking about a truss rod adjustment to relieve either bowing or warping.

Over the years I've tried other bridges on my two Stellings, and have especially liked Scorpion or Snuffy Smith, but I've always come back to the original Stelling bridge. If that's what you decide you want, you can get one from Stelling directly or from a number of other sources such as Elderly.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/28/2022:  19:09:37

My goal, at least for now, is to have a banjo the way Stelling meant it to be. I think the bridge is a Sullivan. It’s a used Banjo that I just upgraded to from a Deering goodtime. I’m still getting used to it. It sometimes feels like a wild horse that needs to be tamed (although it’s a Red Fox lol).

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/28/2022:  20:05:39

quote:

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Originally posted by coolet5

She says I`ll need a higher bridge because if I`ll straight the neck it will be an even lower action near that area. 

I also like a low action. Is that going to make it high-action?

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What area?

Any height bridge can produce low action depending on the angle of the neck's attachment to the pot (round body).

What height bridge is currently on the banjo?  I'm taking a wild guess that it's a low 1/2-inch bridge.

If you want your Stelling to sound the way Geoff Stelling intended it to, you need at least a 5/8-inch bridge. Stelling sells its 5/8-inch old wood standard bridge for $15.   Even if the luthier says you need 21/32-inch (.656) or 11/16-inch, the neck angle can be adjusted for low action -- or reasonable action of 1/8-inch at the 22nd fret. You can shoot for 3/32 at 22nd fret if you like really low, but there's no guarantee you can get without fret buzz.

Recutting the heel is how neck angles are permanently changed. But I don't think you want to get into neck surgery and be making permanent changes to a banjo you may have owned for only a short time. Especially since you may have to experiment with different bridges until you find what height works best for you. Besides affecting action and your fretting hand, bridge height affects your picking hand. 

So instead of having this luthier cut the heel of the neck to change the angle (which she may not even have experience doing) I'd suggest she simply shim the neck after you settle on the new bridge. You could play with a shim forever and never need to have the neck altered. There are two places where a banjo neck can be shimmed. One lowers action, the other raises it. An experienced banjo setup person knows which is which.

If the "bent" neck just needs a truss rod adjustment to be made reasonably flat with a correct amount of upbow (relief), then it should be totally possible to get both a good bridge height and playable action. If the "bent" neck means something more serious, then you might need to take the banjo elsewhere.

Good luck.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/28/2022:  20:58:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by coolet5

She says I`ll need a higher bridge because if I`ll straight the neck it will be an even lower action near that area. 

I also like a low action. Is that going to make it high-action?

---

1. What area?

2. If you want your Stelling to sound the way Geoff Stelling intended it to, you need at least a 5/8-inch bridge. Stelling sells its 5/8-inch old wood standard bridge for $15.   Even if the luthier says you need 21/32-inch (.656) or 11/16-inch, the neck angle can be adjusted for low action -- or reasonable action of 1/8-inch at the 22nd fret. You can shoot for 3/32 at 22nd fret if you like really low, but there's no guarantee you can get without fret buzz.

3. If the "bent" neck just needs a truss rod adjustment to be made reasonably flat with a correct amount of upbow (relief), then it should be totally possible to get both a good bridge height and playable action. 

 

 

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1. Up the neck area from around the 11th fret is where it starts to get punchy because the strings are very close to the fretboard.

2. That`s very useful information. I`m going to pass it on to her and see what she says.

3. Yes that`s what the bent means in this situation- only a truss rode adjustment.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2022:  05:16:05

quote:

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Originally posted by coolet5

2. That`s very useful information. I`m going to pass it on to her and see what she say.

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I did not notice that Arnie had already said Stellings are designed for 11/16 bridge. So that's what to share with the luthier.

If you don't like the resulting action with an adjusted neck and 11/16 bridge, then it's time to consider a shim or a 5/8" bridge to lower action, or both.

banjomule - Posted - 01/29/2022:  05:46:24

Stelling provides outstanding set-up instruction in their field service manual you can buy for $7.50. You can also get the information on their website or by googling Stelling set-up.

If the luthier said straightening the neck would make it worse, would adding relief with the truss rod correct it?

if it's a Sullivan bridge on it now though it could very well be that someone put a 5/8" bridge on and you simply need an 11/16".



As far as bridges go, I really like Kat-eyz, who also makes the Snuffy Smith bridges now. I have an older Snuffy on my Staghorn that sounds fantastic. The factory Stelling bridges are good too and you might consider one of them if you just need a different height. The Sullivan bridges get great reviews too but I haven't had one on one of my Stellings yet.

Edited by - banjomule on 01/29/2022 05:52:00

banjoman56 - Posted - 01/29/2022:  07:04:11

quote:

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Originally posted by coolet5

My goal, at least for now, is to have a banjo the way Stelling meant it to be. I think the bridge is a Sullivan. It’s a used Banjo that I just upgraded to from a Deering goodtime. I’m still getting used to it. It sometimes feels like a wild horse that needs to be tamed (although it’s a Red Fox lol).

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The Sullivan Roasted maple bridges are great bridges. I have them on 3 of my banjos (including a Red Fox Stelling) and love them.

Edited by - banjoman56 on 01/29/2022 07:17:10

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2022:  07:27:24

 coolet5

Read this.

It's the Stelling Banjo Set-up System. Even if you don't intend to do any of this yourself (which you actually should learn to do) you should at a minimum be familiar with everything described so you'll understand how to check whether your Stelling banjo is properly set up. After the full page of instructions, the target specs are listed in a chart.

A testimonial on Retrofret's repair page says they do banjo set-up. They're in Gowanus. If the luthier who's repairing your banjo's scratches can do basic banjo setup, show her the Stelling set-up guide so she'll know the target specs. The purpose is not to tell her how to do her job, it's simply to give her Stelling's specs, which may not be the same as others.

In fact, Stelling's suggested relief as measured at the 7th fret runs a little higher than I've seen suggested for other instruments. Stelling's chart says .028". That's higher than Nechville's .012 to .02. I personally shoot for .012 to .015.  But I adjust based on how the instrument responds, looking for the lowest relief that doesn't buzz in the low frets. Point is: Someone setting up a Stelling should know what Stelling recommends. Relief well over .02 is apparently OK for Stelling.

Stelling says "normal" string height (action) is 1/8-inch at 12th fret, 9/64-inch at 22. The Stelling set-up guide specifically says the co-ordinator rods (rim rods) can be used to adjust action. They probably shouldn't be used to achieve large changes in action. But Stelling's unique wedge fit of its tone ring onto the rim probably makes it safer to adjust action with the co-rods than on Mastertone style banjos.

I note that the set-up specs do not state a bridge height.

The set-up specs tell you that proper bridge location is 13-3/16-inches from the 12th fret, which tells you the scale length is 26-3/8.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/29/2022:  08:16:18

Some great insight, thanks everyone. My luthier is in gowanus, Brooklyn as well. I really rather do the set up myself but since I have no experience doing it I might bring it to Retrofret and see what they can do

1935tb-11 - Posted - 01/29/2022:  08:53:48

just contact mike smith at kateyz

kateyzbb.com/contact

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2022:  09:50:40

quote:

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Originally posted by coolet5

Some great insight, thanks everyone. My luthier is in gowanus, Brooklyn as well. I really rather do the set up myself but since I have no experience doing it I might bring it to Retrofret and see what they can do

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Woman-owned in Gowanus. Certain I know who you're dealing with. They have a good reputation. One of the women appears in some Stew-Mac videos offering finishing tips. But banjo setup is a specialized service. More mechanical than most lutherie.

You can tell the guys at Retrofret that Stelling specs are online, but I suspect they know banjos there.

Where in Brooklyn are you? During a three-year relocation for my wife's work in 2013-16, we lived in Prospect Heights. Sterling Place, just off Vanderbilt. I thought I was going to hate it. I loved it. Noam Pikelny lived a block away, on Park Place, right across the street from the entrance to the 7th Ave station. Then he moved to Nashville.

trackers - Posted - 01/29/2022:  10:47:34

I am a new Stelling owner but not new to banjo picking. I have read up on Stelling a lot lately.
My opinion concerning a bent or warped neck. I have read elsewhere on banjo hangout that Stelling has a one way truss rod to adjust the neck relief. I have also read where Geoff Stelling has replied to a question, that if a neck is badly warped or bent it will require heat to make the neck straight again. If it was my banjo I would remove the neck and send it to Stelling for a professional repair from the man that made it. Actually if it was mine If I couldn't hand deliver it I would ship the complete banjo for a complete repair and factory set up. And it will be as good as a new one.

coolet5 - Posted - 01/29/2022:  11:06:44

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

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Originally posted by coolet5

Some great insight, thanks everyone. My luthier is in gowanus, Brooklyn as well. I really rather do the set up myself but since I have no experience doing it I might bring it to Retrofret and see what they can do

---

Woman-owned in Gowanus. Certain I know who you're dealing with. They have a good reputation. One of the women appears in some Stew-Mac videos offering finishing tips. But banjo setup is a specialized service. More mechanical than most lutherie.

You can tell the guys at Retrofret that Stelling specs are online, but I suspect they know banjos there.

Where in Brooklyn are you? During a three-year relocation for my wife's work in 2013-16, we lived in Prospect Heights. Sterling Place, just off Vanderbilt. I thought I was going to hate it. I loved it. Noam Pikelny lived a block away, on Park Place, right across the street from the entrance to the 7th Ave station. Then he moved to Nashville.

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You got the business right I`m sure. I live in Manhattan. A  good Luthier here that doesn't do woodwork recommended this business. If I could get ahold of Noam,  I would ask him if he can recommend some in the area.

Edited by - coolet5 on 01/29/2022 11:08:03

Fathand - Posted - 01/29/2022:  11:41:59

I was very pleased with a Stelling bridge on my 1985 Stelling for about 8 years until it chipped near a string notch.

Not all Stellings come with an 11/16" bridge, although it seems the more common choice.
I asked Geoff if he knew which height bridge mine shipped with originally but he didn't so I bought a 5/8" from him as the banjo was set up with one when I got it.

arnie fleischer - Posted - 01/29/2022:  13:50:04

Ken, Retrofret is no longer in Gowanus. They moved three or four years ago to Luquer Street, at the end of Carroll Gardens. It's a much nicer (if less funky) showroom which I last visited in late 2018.

I'm afraid you misread the price of Stelling bridges (or was it wishful thinking!). They're $30 for regular bridges, either 5/8" or 11/16".

I got both of my Stellings directly from Geoff and they each came with an 11/16" bridge. I'm sure that Geoff gets orders from people who prefer a 5/8" bridge, but every Stelling I've played in the last 20 years, including dozens at the Stelling booth at IBMA, has had an 11/16" bridge.

Alex Z - Posted - 01/29/2022:  14:30:51

"the neck is bent and as a result, up the neck area tend to be very punchy, (sort of like a slap technique on the bass)"

"Yes that`s what the bent means in this situation- only a truss rode adjustment."

Have to tackle the issues in a sequence, not all at once.

  - First, there is no evidence of a warped neck -- the information is that it needs a truss rod adjustment.  

  - Bowed neck and low action at the 12th fret means the strings are going to be too close to the higher frets.  Poster has defined "punchy" as strings slapping against the frets -- this makes sense.  It is not a tone issue -- rather, a clean note issue.

  - No assessment can be made on the bridge height and associated string height until the neck is straightened to a reasonable degree of relief via the truss rod.  Straightening the neck will lower the string height, and then you judge the bridge height from there.  No need at this point to speculate about cutting the neck heel and refitting.

Therefore:

  1.  Have the tech set the relief.  This should be in the approx .018-.022 range at the 7th fret, when holding the string down at the 1st fret and after the 22nd fret.

  2.  Measure the open string action height at the 12th fret with the current bridge.  1/8" is average.  7/64" is is on the low end of average.  Any lower than that, you're on your own -- depending on how hard you play and how much "slap" or "punch" you can tolerate.

  3.  If you want to change the string height, you can get a higher or lower bridge.  The change in the 12th fret string height will be 1/2 of the change in the bridge height.

After 1, 2, 3, you can tweak to the content of all the hearts that are giving advice here.   You'll be starting with a banjo that plays according to what you like and has a clear tone.  AND, you will have made no adjustments that cannot be reversed.

1, 2, 3 should take about 5 minutes, total, for a knowledgeable person.

Hope this helps.

1935tb-11 - Posted - 01/29/2022:  15:18:33

after reading your post more closely i agree with the others ,,first you gotta get the relief corrected first by adjusting the truss rod... if your not real adapt at this let a banjo repairman do it. once that is done then you can fine tune everything.

steve davis - Posted - 01/29/2022:  17:14:07

A great way to learn to adjust everything banjo is to have a second one to practice on.
It doesn't have to be expensive...just have the regular things like truss rod,hook nuts and tailpiece.

Maybe a used Epiphone.

Old Hickory - Posted - 01/29/2022:  18:26:10

quote:

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Originally posted by arnie fleischer

Ken, Retrofret is no longer in Gowanus. They moved three or four years ago to Luquer Street, at the end of Carroll Gardens. It's a much nicer (if less funky) showroom which I last visited in late 2018.



I'm afraid you misread the price of Stelling bridges (or was it wishful thinking!). They're $30 for regular bridges, either 5/8" or 11/16".

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See. I've only been gone a little over 5 years and already lost my sense of Brooklyn geography.  I knew they had moved. I looked at a map really quickly, saw the new Retrofret was close to the Interstate and thought Gowanus reached all that way.  But I know better, because Smith and Court Streets are in there I know those are Cobble Hill or Carroll Gardens, depending on which end.

I also see how I misread the price of the Stelling bridge. The bridge is listed after heads. The price of heads ($15)  appears directly above (and closer to) the words Stelling Bridge (Old Wood).  Again glancing too quickly.

Ralph Stanley legend - Posted - 01/30/2022:  02:46:56

I am well placed to offer you some very good advice. I own a 1979 Superstar. I have used several very well known bridges on it. However, for the past 3 years I have only used a Tim Purcell old Canadian Birch bridge at 2.1 grams. It allows my Stelling to offer it's best. Without question the best bridge I have used.

Regards
David.

Ralph Stanley legend - Posted - 01/30/2022:  02:51:18

quote:Early Stellings ( 1970's vintage )  came with a 5/8ths bridge.

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Originally posted by arnie fleischer

Ken, Retrofret is no longer in Gowanus. They moved three or four years ago to Luquer Street, at the end of Carroll Gardens. It's a much nicer (if less funky) showroom which I last visited in late 2018.



I'm afraid you misread the price of Stelling bridges (or was it wishful thinking!). They're $30 for regular bridges, either 5/8" or 11/16".



I got both of my Stellings directly from Geoff and they each came with an 11/16" bridge. I'm sure that Geoff gets orders from people who prefer a 5/8" bridge, but every Stelling I've played in the last 20 years, including dozens at the Stelling booth at IBMA, has had an 11/16" bridge.

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notty pine - Posted - 01/30/2022:  07:12:56

I started at Stelling in the end of 95. From that point on anyhow 11/16 was standard height .