Bufo Bill - Posted - 11/18/2021:  09:00:45

Hi, are there any "Classic Era" banjo recordings on Cylinder recordings for Phonographs? If so, are they big money if you find one? It seems like the era of the Edison Phonograph coincides nicely with Stewart et al. Very much a top range luxury, but at this point the banjo was transcending class boundaries.
Cheers from Bill.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 11/18/2021:  09:29:29

Absolutely!

cylinders.library.ucsb.edu/sea...e=keyword

Bufo Bill - Posted - 11/18/2021:  09:43:40

Wow Dan! Great link, many thanks.

May I say how much I enjoy videos of your music on YouTube.
Many thanks from Bill.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/18/2021:  10:20:40

Or go to youtube and search:

Fred Van Eps/Van Eps Trio/ Van Eps Orchestra
Vess L Ossman
Ruby Brooks
Parke Hunter
Fred Bacon
Alfred Farland
Shirley Spaulding

Do the same thing on the Internet Archive.

If you want to hear some fantastic accompaniment to voice complete with short solos direct from the early "tutors" search for Harry C Browne. The subject of the songs he sings are what they are but the banjo playing is very good. And it is a nice touch that he includes the early stuff. It is a good representation of what popular songs with banjo were like in the 1880s (with a focus on minstrelsy for better or mostly worse). I am pretty sure that some of Browne's playing is stroke style and not guitar style.

I see you are in UK... add Olly Oakley, Emile Grimshaw and Tarrant Bailey Jn. to your searches.

You should also check this out...

classic-banjo.ning.com/page/recordings

That should get you started down the path.

The banjo was one of the better (if not the best) recording instruments with acoustic recording tech. Because of this, there was a huge volume recorded and published.

In America, much of the recordings were of popular pieces and not necessary "banjo music" (meaning composed for banjo).

Fred Van Eps or Vess Ossman would often show up to the studio and be handed a piece of piano music to record. He would sit down and work out an arrangement with his group, then record it. This is why we have all the novelty piano pieces recorded on banjo.

But with some perseverance you can find recordings of compositions for banjo.

In England many recordings of banjo music were made.

cevant - Posted - 11/18/2021:  10:21:59

I second the comments about Dan's playing. His CD is the only thing my truck will let me play for about last 4 months. It won't even start without.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/18/2021:  10:40:43

In regards to "class boundaries" there has been a narrative painted by academia about the banjo being some sort of elite upper class toy.



This was true (to a certain extent) in England. But in the US it was mostly puffery and pretending to be fancy. The demographic that banjo and popular music appealed to was largely working class. Yes, "upper class" people bought the latest fashionable toy to decorate their "parlors" (and manufacturers were ready to take their money). But by and far the consumers of banjos and banjo music were the so called "middle class" or working class that suddenly had a little bit of extra money in their pockets.



Fred Van Eps was not formally educated and apprenticed under his father, a watchmaker. He quit watch repair and started recording in his teens.



S. S. Stewart was the grandson of a patent medicine selling con artist. He started his music store in his late twenties (around the time he married) and transitioned into making banjos and publishing music.



Frank Converse was the son of a music teacher in Elmira, NY. He ran away from home in his teens to play banjo in minstrel shows. He did eventually try to attend law school but dropped out (his older brother was a lawyer). As a matter of fact, he was forbidden to marry the love of his life do to him being lower class-- Harriet Maxwell was the daughter of a railroad tycoon. He eventually eloped with her after she was widowed.



In England, where classes were more clearly defined, it was a bit more obvious. For example, Parke Hunter (an American) was not allowed to enter the front door of Clifford Essex as he ran with the music hall crowd.



Joe Morley was evidently Roma and died in poverty (he enjoyed the races). This was a situation where the upper class embraced what the working class was doing and the two existed side by side.

Edited by - Joel Hooks on 11/18/2021 10:43:42

Alvin Conder - Posted - 11/18/2021:  10:58:11

I’m just going to parrot all the above posts.

There are hundreds and hundreds of hours of resources as listed above for you to get absolutely lost in. The music ranges from absolute camp to complete virtuosity. All of it is a real eye opener on music and the banjo in general.

Enjoy the listens and the journey.

spoonfed - Posted - 11/18/2021:  11:36:16

Joel, I have never heard that Joe Morley was a Romany, where did you learn this ?

csacwp - Posted - 11/18/2021:  11:52:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bufo Bill

Hi, are there any "Classic Era" banjo recordings on Cylinder recordings for Phonographs? If so, are they big money if you find one? It seems like the era of the Edison Phonograph coincides nicely with Stewart et al. Very much a top range luxury, but at this point the banjo was transcending class boundaries.

Cheers from Bill.

---

There are hundreds if not thousands of recordings out there, American and British. Others have already pointed you in the right direction. I'll add that, unlike some old-time recordings from the 1920s and 1930s, these tend to be inexpensive to pick up. Also, phonographs were pretty affordable back in the day and became a middle class staple. I wouldn't call them a "top class luxury," nor would I link them to the semi-mythical "elevation" of the banjo. For crying out loud, most banjo recordings from the period are ragtime, not classy music. 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/18/2021:  12:49:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by spoonfed

Joel, I have never heard that Joe Morley was a Romany, where did you learn this ?

---

core.ac.uk/display/159767827?source=2

Read and enjoy... 

Bufo Bill - Posted - 11/18/2021:  12:54:12

Thanks for touching on the collector side of my post John.
I wasn't so much trying to say that there was a link between the development of recorded sound and any change in the banjo's status, just that the two events coincide. It seemed to me that the banjo boom would have a big audience and therefore be a bountiful source of profit, that was my thinking.
I think you are right about the affordability of the phonograph, but in British Antique Shops, you are much more likely to come across a disc playing Gramophone than a Cylinder playing Phonograph, perhaps that subconsciously influenced my post.

spoonfed - Posted - 11/18/2021:  13:36:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by spoonfed

Joel, I have never heard that Joe Morley was a Romany, where did you learn this ?

---

core.ac.uk/display/159767827?source=2

 

Read and enjoy... 

---

well, quite apart from the author refering to "classical banjo" a couple of times what I can gather from the author himself is that most of what is written is surmised since no records exist from the period, I am a descendant of Romany people (my mothers family were true Romanies) true Romany people rarely show up on official documentation even in this modern age, how anybody can claim with any kind of certainty that a person born into Victorian Britain was from a Romany family has a faint whiff of the ridiculous to any British person familiar with the lifestyle of such peoples. genuine "travelling people" never leave any kind of paper trail at all. From what I can gather here little or nothing is known about his early life and still less about his ancestors lives.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/18/2021:  17:47:07

spoonfed you know my opinion on "classical banjo". And while I understand the reason why the generation that used it did, it gives the wrong impression.

As to the rest, your input is great and I would recommend you bring it up on the Ning site where Anthony is a member and occasional contributor.

spoonfed - Posted - 11/19/2021:  08:46:20

I could find nothing new in this guys dissertation just more speculation, hopeful speculation at that ! I see no point in bringing this up over at the ning site, I am a fully employed performer on the banjo and, have been for decades, I am in front of an audience banjo in hand several times each week approx 200 gigs a year, most of those guys are armchair critics who have seldom if ever trodden the boards. In my opinion that alone gives me an insight into the life of a working musician, nothing fundamentally changes, the world of entertainment at least in the UK is still awash with Clifford Essex's trying to get ahead of their competitors by whatever means they can, the public can be very fickle and the competition extremely cunning, I saw that reflected in Joe Morleys career path, that added to his stubborn refusal to change is what contributed to his somewhat rocky career, I have my own opinions re; Joe Morley and his compositions, they are not relevant here, how his professional life panned out though speaks volumes to me, just as the bluegrass crowd obsessively copy Scruggs and play Mastertones, the Irish crowd follow Barney McKenna and seek out CE Paragons so too do the classic crowd copy JM and play CE banjos, it makes no sense whatsoever but, they still do it, my views are enough on their own to exclude me from any sensible discussion on Ning. I am away now for the weekend as I have several gigs to do, I will make no more contributions until at least Monday.

markelynch - Posted - 11/19/2021:  09:48:46

There is a new Historical Recordings website at i78s.org
It is a library of 40,000 early recordings owned by a friend and is growing by about 200 per week.
Much to listen to of all genres from the 1890’s to late 1930’s on cylinder and disc.
Plenty of banjo recordings!

Sign up for a free user account at i78s.org
No concern about spam or your email address being sold. This is unique access into a private recording collection of significant size and scope.

Mark

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/19/2021:  10:30:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by spoonfed

I could find nothing new in this guys dissertation just more speculation, hopeful speculation at that ! I see no point in bringing this up over at the ning site, I am a fully employed performer on the banjo and, have been for decades, I am in front of an audience banjo in hand several times each week approx 200 gigs a year, most of those guys are armchair critics who have seldom if ever trodden the boards. In my opinion that alone gives me an insight into the life of a working musician, nothing fundamentally changes, the world of entertainment at least in the UK is still awash with Clifford Essex's trying to get ahead of their competitors by whatever means they can, the public can be very fickle and the competition extremely cunning, I saw that reflected in Joe Morleys career path, that added to his stubborn refusal to change is what contributed to his somewhat rocky career, I have my own opinions re; Joe Morley and his compositions, they are not relevant here, how his professional life panned out though speaks volumes to me, just as the bluegrass crowd obsessively copy Scruggs and play Mastertones, the Irish crowd follow Barney McKenna and seek out CE Paragons so too do the classic crowd copy JM and play CE banjos, it makes no sense whatsoever but, they still do it, my views are enough on their own to exclude me from any sensible discussion on Ning. I am away now for the weekend as I have several gigs to do, I will make no more contributions until at least Monday.

---

Thanks again for your observations.  I cannot speak for those "armchair critics" but I make no extra claims to what I bring to the table.  This is purely a hobby for me as my living is made managing a small textile and consumer goods factory in New England. 

Since my ability to eat and pay bills is not linked to the service of playing music for paying customers, I do not have your unique perspective on musical obsolescence.

Thank you for your service as a working musician. 

Please share your thoughts on Morley and his compositions. 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 11/19/2021:  10:39:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by markelynch

There is a new Historical Recordings website at i78s.org

It is a library of 40,000 early recordings owned by a friend and is growing by about 200 per week.

Much to listen to of all genres from the 1890’s to late 1930’s on cylinder and disc.

Plenty of banjo recordings!



Sign up for a free user account at i78s.org

No concern about spam or your email address being sold. This is unique access into a private recording collection of significant size and scope.



Mark

---

Yes, this is got a ton of recordings that are not found on other sites.  

spoonfed - Posted - 11/20/2021:  03:52:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by spoonfed

I could find nothing new in this guys dissertation just more speculation, hopeful speculation at that ! I see no point in bringing this up over at the ning site, I am a fully employed performer on the banjo and, have been for decades, I am in front of an audience banjo in hand several times each week approx 200 gigs a year, most of those guys are armchair critics who have seldom if ever trodden the boards. In my opinion that alone gives me an insight into the life of a working musician, nothing fundamentally changes, the world of entertainment at least in the UK is still awash with Clifford Essex's trying to get ahead of their competitors by whatever means they can, the public can be very fickle and the competition extremely cunning, I saw that reflected in Joe Morleys career path, that added to his stubborn refusal to change is what contributed to his somewhat rocky career, I have my own opinions re; Joe Morley and his compositions, they are not relevant here, how his professional life panned out though speaks volumes to me, just as the bluegrass crowd obsessively copy Scruggs and play Mastertones, the Irish crowd follow Barney McKenna and seek out CE Paragons so too do the classic crowd copy JM and play CE banjos, it makes no sense whatsoever but, they still do it, my views are enough on their own to exclude me from any sensible discussion on Ning. I am away now for the weekend as I have several gigs to do, I will make no more contributions until at least Monday.

---

Thanks again for your observations.  I cannot speak for those "armchair critics" but I make no extra claims to what I bring to the table.  This is purely a hobby for me as my living is made managing a small textile and consumer goods factory in New England. 

Since my ability to eat and pay bills is not linked to the service of playing music for paying customers, I do not have your unique perspective on musical obsolescence.

Thank you for your service as a working musician. 

Please share your thoughts on Morley and his compositions. 

 

 

---

Thank you Joel for your kind comments, I make no claims either concerning what I bring to the table. Merely that my perspective is of necessity slightly different from some others, we are all different I guess, I find I have some time today to bash my laptop since the gig is not for another 6 hours, In a nutshell I play no Morley compositions, I have never heard one I like, As I said we are all different.

hbick2 - Posted - 11/25/2021:  18:42:16

For those who are interested, there was a book titled "The Banjo on Record: A Bio-Discography published in 1993. It was written by Uli Heier and Rainer E. Lotz and was published by the Greenwood Press. It is still available.

The book contains 530 pages of discographies, including 30 pages for Ossman and 77 pages for Harry Reser. Although I'm sure a lot more information has surfaced since then, it is still a massive collection of banjo recordings on 78s and cylinders.