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finger-picker - Posted - 03/30/2021: 10:25:48
I understand the concept behind keys, chords, etc., and so can understand I, IV, V, chords, minor chords, etc., and how they’re derived from whichever key the song is in. My question specifically is do songs generally follow a standard chord progression and then repeat over and over throughout a song? Like a bluegrass song in G,
First 2 measures: G
Next 2 measures: C
Next 2 measures: D
Next 2 measures: G
Next 2 measures: C
Next 2 measures: D
Until the end of song?
Or, do some songs vary in how many measures has this chord, etc.? Hopefully I’m being clear.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/30/2021: 11:57:24
Different songs use different chord sequences. If all songs used the same sequence, all songs would sound pretty much alike.
Normally a song will have verses and a chorus. Normally, the verse is sung/played first and then the chorus, then verse, chorus, and on and on, according to how many verses are in the song. Normally all verses have the same chord sequence and the chorus can either be the same chord sequence as the verse or a different sequence than the verse. If the chorus is a different sequence, then it normally stays that sequence throughout the entire song. Now, these are generalities and are not written in stone, but a good place to start if you're trying to figure out sequences.
If you want to talk easy bluegrass songs, most are 3 chord songs and they use the major I, IV, V (1, 4, 5) chords not necessarily in that order, but in some order. Now, there are bluegrass songs that use more than those 3 chords and usually they use the II (2), or vi (6), occasionally the iii (3) or the VII (7).
Again, generally speaking, most verses and/or choruses do not vary the sequence during the song. Sometimes either the singer or the one doing a break may add a measure or more at the end of the verse or chorus of a song for many reasons but normally, a song is "X" bars long and generally speaking, that doesn't change during the entirety of the song. Again, this is not written in stone, but a generalization.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is this: there is very little in music that can't change, transform into something different; songs can be changed, they can be different, different people play them different ways, may change the sequence from the way you learned it, may want a little different sound, more blues or jazz or whatever genre they want to add to get that different sound.
Alex Z - Posted - 03/30/2021: 12:23:26
"My question specifically is do songs generally follow a standard chord progression and then repeat over and over throughout a song? Like a bluegrass song in G, "
For folk-type music, including bluegrass and country, there is no one single "standard chord progression -- however, there are probably 5-7 different sequences of chord progressions that would cover 90% of the songs. They are so common that often by the time you hear the 1st and 2nd chords in the song, you can anticipate what the 3rd and 4th chords will be. 
In this type of music, then yes, within one song the chord progressions would repeat over and over, because the verses and the chorus repeat within the song.
Just for one example, not to belabor the point, consider "Wreck of the Old 97."
first half of verse: G G G G C C C C G G G G D D D D
second half of verse: G G G G C C C C G G D D G G G G
There are hundreds of songs that have this same progression of chords. "Back to the Old Home," "Your Love is Like a Flower" etc.
Folk-type music just don't get all that complicated.
Old Hickory - Posted - 03/30/2021: 14:05:44
What they all said.
Plus songs don't all start on the one (I) chord of the key. G in the example you gave.
Some songs start on the IV. Some start on the V. That would be C and D in G.
Some start on the ii or vi minor. A minor and E minor in G.
Songs that go from V back to I in the last line of a verse or chorus have different ways of achieving that change. Some might do all V then I. Some might do a lot of I then a quick V and back to I. "Lot" is an advanced musical term. 
I totally agree with Alex that in many many cases once you've heard two chords you have a good idea where the song is going. But I've found that for songs I've never heard before, no matter how predictable most of the progression may be, there's no predicting exactly how it's going to handle the final resolution back to the one. You just have to wait to hear it.
Rather than trying to learn and remember a bunch of chord progressions, it's much more valuable to learn what chord changes song like -- especially how the combination of melody and chord often signals what chord is coming next. Listen actively and try to hear and learn both the similarities and differences in chord progressions.
You can do this all by ear. But there's nothing wrong in referring to a few song books or chord sheets for reference and to check on your accuracy. After a while, you'll rarely need them.
banjoak - Posted - 03/30/2021: 18:28:42
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
My question specifically is do songs generally follow a standard chord progression and then repeat over and over throughout a song?
...Or, do some songs vary in how many measures has this chord, etc.?
Not sure if what you might be asking... about structure of songs.
For individual song, mostly it involves repetition. Songs have parts, each part has chord progression (measures) that overall, typically remains the same.
Some songs (like ballads) only have one part. Others have verse, chorus. Then others might have some bridge. Those different parts might use same, or slightly different, or much different. Instrumental breaks typically follow parts (though sometimes just one, such as verse).
The order of parts might vary (such as how many verses before chorus).
The length of each part typically stays same, but sometimes slight variability of extra space folks add in between parts; such as holding a measure; or for example, in the beginning or end of a song has just one line, or repeated line.
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/31/2021: 08:06:36
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
What they all said.
Plus songs don't all start on the one (I) chord of the key. G in the example you gave.
Yes, that's an important point that sometimes confuses beginners. But I'd like to add that almost ALL songs END on the I chord. That I chord is home base, and if you don't get back to it at the end, it doesn't feel like the song is over. In addition, in the large majority of songs (we're talking about bluegrass, old-time, traditional folk, early country music, and the like, at any rate), the next-to-last chord will be the V (D, in the key of G). It's just built into our musical system that the V makes you want to "resolve" to the I.
So let's say you're jamming and someone calls a song you haven't heard. What do you know about it? Well, once you know the key, it's a good bet that it contains the I, IV, and V chords. It's a near certainty that both verse and chorus end on the I chord, and very likely that they have the V chord as the next-to-last chord. That's an awful lot to know about a song you've never heard! (With experience you'll find other things that are likely, but not certain. For example, the most common last line is I-V-I-I and the second most common last line is V-V-I-I.)
Combine that with the song-structure overview that Sherry gave above, and you can make a LOT of good educated guesses about how the progression will go. You might not get it perfect at first, but by the end of the song you should have it figured out.
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 03/31/2021 08:15:51
Old Hickory - Posted - 03/31/2021: 09:32:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ira Gitlin
For example, the most common last line is I-V-I-I and the second most common last line is V-V-I-I.)
After that, maybe V-IV-I-I
And some tunes or songs substitute a "flat VII' chord (F Major in the key of G, for example) for the V. Chorus of Rocky Top ends: I-bVII-I 2x.
In fact, the flat VII is used so much in bluegrass, folk and country, and the true vii (a diminished chord a half-step down from the one) is essentially never used, so that when someone at a jam tells you a progression is something like one-seven-one, you can be sure they mean the flat seven.
This is all stuff you can pick up from listening and jamming. After a while, you just know it.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/31/2021: 11:14:10
When I was first trying to learn to hear chord changes and understand chord sequences in songs, I would find a song I wanted to learn and write down the chord sequence to it. I made a list of each song I learned and its chord sequence. Wasn't long before I could see patterns for various sequences and found that many songs had exactly the same chord sequence for the verse and the chorus and many songs had the same chord sequence for the verse and a different one for the chorus. That helped me understand what was going on and why the I chord was usually followed by a V or a IV chord, that "off chords" were fairly easy to distinguish because they sounded ..... off; i.e., not like your normal 3 chords. Hard to explain, easier to show and tell.
When I started jammin' I'd sit where I could see a rhythm guitar picker and when he/she changed chords, I would too. I learned some basic guitar chord fingerings so I'd know what chord they were changing to and that helped find the chord I needed. Eventually, I could feel a change coming up but wasn't always sure what it was. As time went on, I knew a change was coming up and usually knew what it was. Took time and lots of jammin' but it can be done.
finger-picker - Posted - 04/01/2021: 06:58:47
I’ve been writing out each note in songs lately and it really helps me determine which chord groupings certain measures are and which chords they’re not (like if C# is a note, I know it’s probably not a G bar, unless it’s a passing tone). It’s still tricky to deduce “parent chords” especially when only frets are listed for the strings, but it’s a start.
I focus more on three finger classical music but it seems like rotating chord progressions are in them too. I was thrown off recently though with Canon in D by J. Pachelbel , it starts as D A Bm F#m G D G A but then some measures later change the last four chords to D D A A. I figured it out though with help of everyone’s replies.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/01/2021: 08:11:23
If you'll work more on easy 3 chord bluegrass songs, you may be able to start hearing/figuring out chord changes a little quicker as so many of the songs have the same or very similar chord structure(s).
Listen to songs and try to hear runs going up or down. That's usually a sign that a chord change is going to happen right after the run up or down.
When I was first learning about chord changes and sequences, I bought Band in a Box software and input chords to songs that I knew and songs that I wanted to know. Then I'd listen to the chord progression while watching the chord letters change on the screen and that helped me hear those changes better.
It might help to chord along with a song and when the chord sounds bad, go back and try another chord and see if that one fits. Eventually, your ear will be able to tell you whether you're right or wrong.
From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 04/01/2021: 08:25:22
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
I’ve been writing out each note in songs lately and it really helps me determine which chord groupings certain measures are and which chords they’re not (like if C# is a note, I know it’s probably not a G bar, unless it’s a passing tone). It’s still tricky to deduce “parent chords” especially when only frets are listed for the strings, but it’s a start.
I focus more on three finger classical music but it seems like rotating chord progressions are in them too. I was thrown off recently though with Canon in D by J. Pachelbel , it starts as D A Bm F#m G D G A but then some measures later change the last four chords to D D A A. I figured it out though with help of everyone’s replies.
Sounds like a different situation than your original post mentioned.
250gibson - Posted - 04/01/2021: 09:06:03
quote:
Originally posted by finger-picker
I’ve been writing out each note in songs lately and it really helps me determine which chord groupings certain measures are and which chords they’re not (like if C# is a note, I know it’s probably not a G bar, unless it’s a passing tone). It’s still tricky to deduce “parent chords” especially when only frets are listed for the strings, but it’s a start.
I focus more on three finger classical music but it seems like rotating chord progressions are in them too. I was thrown off recently though with Canon in D by J. Pachelbel , it starts as D A Bm F#m G D G A but then some measures later change the last four chords to D D A A. I figured it out though with help of everyone’s replies.
A Cannon in a classical music sense is by definition is a repetitive chord progression that can be repeated ad nauseum with various voices entering or exiting each time through in melody and counter melody. In a baroque cannon the bass voices keep the chordal progression going (basso continuo), while the additional upper register voices add melodic and counter melodic variations over top. The progression laid down by the bass instruments is usually written in figured bass notation. The underlying chords making up the basso continuo by definition usually do not change, they would be the same all the way through. I haven’t looked at Pachabels Cannon in D maj for a while but I’m pretty sure the chordal harmony does not change.
