finger-picker - Posted - 12/18/2020:  05:49:40

I know several songs that are in C tuning which has the 4th string dropped to a C. With other tunings such as standard G and D, it appears that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th degree notes are all present and accounted for with their strings, but this C tuning doesn't contain the third degree, E, in it, even though it would be easy to change the 1st string as well as the 4th.

My question is this: is it just coincidence that G (gDGBD) and D (a/f#-DF#AD) have the 1/3/5 degrees in them whereas the C doesn't? And if that's the case, what are the most important things to consider when re-tuning to a certain key?

george craciun - Posted - 12/18/2020:  06:06:42

Way too technical for me, but drop C is my favorite tuning because only a single string (4th) need to be retuned to C. Just takes a little practice to learn to play in that C scale. And I find that a lot of tunes sound better when played in drop C or single C. Also drop C allows you to easily play D tunes with capo at second fret (i.e. open A ) and a E tunes with capo at 4th fret (i.e. open B) . Hope that helps. Happy pickin" .

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 12/18/2020:  07:06:52

If a person is trying to sing or play a song in the key of G and finds it difficult the key of C will usually do the trick because it's about as far away from G as you can get. This because there are 12 notes in an octave and C is almost halfway away from a G.

G Ab A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb

This tuning is handy because it only changes one string, low D, so anything on the other ones is still where you know them to be.

EulalieBlue - Posted - 12/18/2020:  07:20:02

The "C" tuning you are referring to is the original banjo tuning that was established from the early days of the banjo. While it's true that the earliest published banjo music was for an instrument tuned to the lower pitch of "A", the intervals (distance between the notes) are the same, and the "C" tuning was eventually adopted for printed banjo music.

The advantages of the "C" tuning become apparent if you play some of the earlier printed banjo music, which frequently explores different keys including, lots in F and c-minor for instance. Players in the old-time fiddle tune and bluegrass traditions are accustomed to using capos or changing the tuning depending upon the key. This is not necessary if you play out of the standard tuning and find your way around the different keys, just as you should on guitar. By the way, the tuning you mention is also the standard plectrum banjo tuning (without the fifth string) still in use in old popular music.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/18/2020:  08:06:30

Let's make it clear, in case anyone reading this thread is unaware, that TUNING and KEY are two very different things. You can play in ANY key no matter what tuning you're in.

BUT--

Some tunings make it easier to play in certain keys. Bluegrass players spend most of their time in G tuning and stay there when they're playing in C, D, F (e.g., Scruggs on "Why Don't You Tell Me So"), and even more exotic keys like B (Tony Trischka's "Purchase Grover") or Eb (Bill Keith's "Clinging Vine"). But G is the easiest key when you're in G tuning. Why? Because most songs spend most of their time on the tonic (or "root" or "I") chord, so much of the time you can get the chord tones you need with no fretting.

If you're playing in the key of C, it can be nice to have that low root note. But as George points out above, in C tuning most of the strings are the same as in G tuning. That means that although a little modification may be necessary, you don't have to completely re-learn your fretting-hand shapes. And (thinking from my bluegrass perspective here) you can play many of your familiar G licks--but they'll be on the V chord instead of the I.

R Buck - Posted - 12/18/2020:  08:47:26

When a kid, I had a banjo book that used gCGBD as the default tuning. I used that tuning a lot but learned many more after encountering the influence of folks like Art Rosenbaum and Mike Seeger.

Alex Z - Posted - 12/18/2020:  08:48:33

"With other tunings such as standard G and D, it appears that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th degree notes are all present and accounted for with their strings, but this C tuning doesn't contain the third degree, E . . ."

"My question is this:  is it just coincidence that G (gDGBD) and D (a/f#-DF#AD) have the 1/3/5 degrees in them whereas the C doesn't?" 

To answer your specific question:  Yes, just a coincidence.  The confusion here is merely the conventional "name" of the tuning.

For example, why do we call it the "G" tuning, when D is the lowest note?  Could be called a "D tuning" with no F#.  Or could raise the 5th string to A, aDGBD -- a common tuning for playin in the key of A.

The conventional name of a tuning does not have to mean that 1-3-5 of the scale have to be in the tuning.  And as Mr. Gitlin explained, the name of the tuning does not mean that a tune played in that tuning has to be in the key of the name of the tuning -- tunes in many keys can be played out of the G tuning.

Hope this helps.

finger-picker - Posted - 12/18/2020:  09:37:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

"With other tunings such as standard G and D, it appears that the 1st, 3rd, and 5th degree notes are all present and accounted for with their strings, but this C tuning doesn't contain the third degree, E . . ."

"My question is this:  is it just coincidence that G (gDGBD) and D (a/f#-DF#AD) have the 1/3/5 degrees in them whereas the C doesn't?" 

To answer your specific question:  Yes, just a coincidence.  The confusion here is merely the conventional "name" of the tuning.

For example, why do we call it the "G" tuning, when D is the lowest note?  Could be called a "D tuning" with no F#.  Or could raise the 5th string to A, aDGBD -- a common tuning for playin in the key of A.

The conventional name of a tuning does not have to mean that 1-3-5 of the scale have to be in the tuning.  And as Mr. Gitlin explained, the name of the tuning does not mean that a tune played in that tuning has to be in the key of the name of the tuning -- tunes in many keys can be played out of the G tuning.

Hope this helps.

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Yes that helps! Thank you for answering my posted question :) But thank you to others too for providing background info and other details. 

rfink1913 - Posted - 12/18/2020:  14:58:04

There's a point of view that the tunings which don't have the third as an open string -- double C (gCGCD) and modal tuning (gDGCD) as well as standard gCGBD if you think of it as a "C" tuning -- are *better*, because they don't constrain you to the "major" sound.

To me, the best sound on the old-time banjo is the open strum in double C with that whole step dissonance on top... :)

banjoy - Posted - 12/18/2020:  15:42:15

When you drop the 4th string a whole step to a "C" the banjo itself it not tuned to C chord. That's why.



So, with the string now dropped to C, fretting 0-0-1-2 which = C-G-C-E ... gives you a full C chord in the order of root as bass note, then the 5th, another root note (an octave above the lowered 4th string) and finally, the 3rd being played.



Ta-dah. Mission accomplished.

Edited by - banjoy on 12/18/2020 15:53:24

finger-picker - Posted - 12/18/2020:  15:56:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by rfink1913

There's a point of view that the tunings which don't have the third as an open string -- double C (gCGCD) and modal tuning (gDGCD) as well as standard gCGBD if you think of it as a "C" tuning -- are *better*, because they don't constrain you to the "major" sound.

---

Ooo great tidbit thanks for sharing

finger-picker - Posted - 12/18/2020:  15:59:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

When you drop the 4th string a whole step to a "C" the banjo itself it not tuned to C chord. That's why.



So, with the string now dropped to C, fretting 0-0-1-2 which = C-G-C-E ... gives you a full C chord in the order of root as bass note, then the 5th, another root note (an octave above the lowered 4th string) and finally, the 3rd being played.



Ta-dah. Mission accomplished.

---

Ah of course, that's probably why most/all of my gCGBD tunes I know spend a lot of their time in 0-0-1-2. 

finger-picker - Posted - 12/18/2020:  16:10:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

For example, why do we call it the "G" tuning, when D is the lowest note?  Could be called a "D tuning" with no F#.  Or could raise the 5th string to A, aDGBD -- a common tuning for playin in the key of A.

The conventional name of a tuning does not have to mean that 1-3-5 of the scale have to be in the tuning.  

---

So strictly hypothetical, without care to chord shapes and fret positions, since standard G tuning gDGBD, for instance, doesn't follow any sort of degree separation convention that I can devise, could I play songs in G tuning using other notes in the G scale G A B C D E F# (G) tuned to the strings, such as aGAEG?

I guess what I'm asking is what are the rules for which strings get assigned which notes in a given tuning? 

banjoy - Posted - 12/18/2020:  16:14:35

Yeah you may be getting stuck on the idea a banjo has to be tuned to an open chord, or that any tuning must somehow be a chord. Not so fast. In G tuning that is true. When you start changing tuning it may no longer be in an open chord at all.



Some of the prettiest sounds from a banjo, I think, often come from some of the alternative and modal tunings that clawhammer and old time pickers will often use. I love hearing a picker who knows how to move around in some of those tunings, it can be haunting or ethereal and just very nice.



As Ira Gitlin said above, you can play any key in any tuning. I'll extend that one more leap: you can play in any key in any tuning on any stringed instrument.



A guitar, violin, bass, mandolin, etc are not tuned to an open chord yet you can play any chord, and in any key. It's just by fluke that a "bluegrass" banjo is tuned to an open chord. The music gods set it up that way I guess...



If you get an autoharp it's even easier. Just press some buttons and there ya go!

Edited by - banjoy on 12/18/2020 16:19:26

finger-picker - Posted - 12/18/2020:  16:32:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

Yeah you may be getting stuck on the idea a banjo has to be tuned to an open chord, or that any tuning must somehow be a chord. Not so fast. In G tuning that is true. When you start changing tuning it may no longer be in an open chord at all.

---

Got it, yes I think you've disillusioned things for me lol

Alex Z - Posted - 12/18/2020:  17:06:21

So strictly hypothetical, without care to chord shapes and fret positions, since standard G tuning gDGBD, for instance, doesn't follow any sort of degree separation convention that I can devise, [Q1] could I play songs in G tuning using other notes in the G scale G A B C D E F# (G) tuned to the strings, such as aGAEG?

I guess what I'm asking is [Q2] what are the rules for which strings get assigned which notes in a given tuning? 

[Ans 1]  Yes.  Theoretically , you can tune the banjo strings to any note and in that tuning play in any key.  However, since the banjo is a folk instrument, that's not the way the tunings have developed.  See Ans 2.

[Ans 2]  Instead of rules, consider how the tunings of the banjo have evolved in the folk tradition.  They have evolved either (a) out of local/individual practices ("this is how I tune my banjo when I play Kitchen Girl, my Pap showed me -- by the way, what's a capo?") or (b) out of common practices with tunes/keys adapted to that tuning ("95% of my Bach pieces I play in gCGBD," and "95% of my bluegrass tunes I play in gDGBD and use a capo as needed").

The "folk tradition" [ and by "folk" I mean "music of the people" not "music played in the early 1960s" ] ends up with various tunings that give various flavors to the tunes at hand or make them easier to play.  Here are some tunings that have been used for clawhammer:

  gDGBD

  gCGBD

  eCGCD

  eGDBD

  gDGCD

  fDGCD

  eCFBbC

  There are also commonly used:

  aDGBD

  f#DGBD

  gDGBbD

  gCGCE

  and many others, including variants of the above where some or all the notes are raised a step up to play in a higher key without a capo.

The conventional G tuning, C tuning, double C tuning, open C tuning, D tuning, etc. are just the tip of the iceberg.  

Guitar has a much longer and more formal musical history tha banjo, so you see most all guitar pieces played in the standard tuning EADGBE, with very occasional (at least in classical pieces) retuning of the 6th string down to D.  However, in the use of the guitar in the folk tradition, other tunings have evolved, although not as many different ones as for the banjo.  Open G, DADGAD, open D, etc.

Hope this helps.

banjoy - Posted - 12/19/2020:  04:43:25

Your hunger for knowledge is understandable and inspirational, however...



Just a few general observations here. And they may or may not apply to you. Chew one bite at a time, slowly, then swallow. Soon you'll be full, your hunger will be satisfied until your system has digested things. Then, hunger returns and you can take another bite of information, chew slowly, swallow, digest. Sometimes you (meaning anyone) can bite off more than they can chew and almost choke on good information (I can speak from personal experiences), it's just too much to swallow or process all at once. And, lots of great chefs here, in these threads, giving you great recipes to try, spices to savor. These metaphors are appropriate.



Another thing to understand is learning is not always a straight linear path from knowing nothing to knowing everything. There can be, and often are, bumps along the learning road, and some sidetrips along the way for sure. You will have growth spurts where lots of ah-ha moments may be followed by being lost in the weeds, not knowing where you are. As Thomas Wolfe the author has said: life is like a pendulum swinging between hope, ecstasy, and despair.



Don't be discouraged, and if you find yourself going there, just drop whatever it is and move on to something else (to return later when your metaphorical digestion has settled down) which will help smooth out the ups and downs, where you're not bumping heads with your self (again, "you" meaning anyone, including me).



As Bill Keith used to say, "Banjo Will Never Let You Down." There's a lot of truth in that.

Edited by - banjoy on 12/19/2020 04:48:12

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 12/19/2020:  06:44:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by dan_the_man

 

So strictly hypothetical, without care to chord shapes and fret positions, since standard G tuning gDGBD, for instance, doesn't follow any sort of degree separation convention that I can devise, could I play songs in G tuning using other notes in the G scale G A B C D E F# (G) tuned to the strings, such as aGAEG?

Strictly hypothetical--yes. But it might not be particularly convenient.

I think many of our tunings arise out of a quasi-Darwinian process. A mutation occurs (someone decides to try a different tuning) and either it's adaptive (it allows the musician to play something more easily) or it's not. If it's not, it dies out, leaving no offspring. (Not sure exactly what "offspring" would mean here, but hey, every analogy has its limitations.) So we're left with the tunings tht--however odd they may appear--have been found to help us  play easily and efficiently.



People sometimes wonder why standard guitar tuning is asymmetrical--why there's a major third between the third and second strings, when all the other intervals are perfect fourths. (Medieval lute and Spanish vihuela tunings also display this asymmetry.) Wouldn't it be more rational, they ask, to use the same interval across the board?

Well, just imagine if all the intervals were fourths. Then the guitar would be tuned EADGCF instead of EADGBE. If you play guitar, you can try that. You'll find that it makes our common, useful chords  harder to play, or less full sounding. At some point centuries ago musicians discovered this odd fact, and we modern guitarists are the beneficiaries of their experimentation.

beegee - Posted - 12/19/2020:  07:13:54

Years ago, in isolated communities where instruments were largely home-made, and musicians self-taught, tunings were optional and often were designed to fit the singer's voice and manual dexterity and traditional folk-melodies.. They did not necessarily follow any formal music conventions.

janolov - Posted - 12/19/2020:  08:10:13

There are a lot of different tunings. Old-Time musicians use more alternative tunings than Bluegrass or Folk music players. Here are the most common Old-Time tunings described: banjo-l.org/aktuning.htm (and it is far from all!). A few of the tunings are so-called  open tunings (where the unfretted banjo makes a chord, for example G tuning (gDGBD) or open D tuning (f#/a D F# A D), but most of the tunings are used just to make it easier to play the tune (minimizing the fretting) or give special music effects (for example drone on fifth string, and using the fifth string to play melody notes)

finger-picker - Posted - 12/19/2020:  10:58:59

Well, just imagine if all the intervals were fourths. Then the guitar would be tuned EADGCF instead of EADGBE. If you play guitar, you can try that. You'll find that it makes our common, useful chords  harder to play, or less full sounding. At some point centuries ago musicians discovered this odd fact, and we modern guitarists are the beneficiaries of their experimentation.

---

Great perspective, thanks! 

Ybanjo - Posted - 12/30/2020:  10:03:35

Drop C tuning isn't just for the old time songs. The group I played with a few years ago played "Heard It Through The Grapevine" in Cm. I used the drop C tuning just to get that super low C note that is necessary in that song.

Edited by - Ybanjo on 12/30/2020 10:04:03

kr - Posted - 12/30/2020:  10:30:40

I think a look at Art Rosenbaums Tunings for Old Time banjo Book and video would help you with understanding the many different tunings used for the banjo.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 01/19/2021:  08:44:41

Every tuning has its characteristic little set of riffs that come naturally from its open strings and the simplest available musically useful fingering moves down near the nut.

In the "standard" tuning, that's a I chord and a V chord, in nice full inversions, with the thumb string consonant with both. Rock one little hand position back and forth (0012-1000), and you can accompany just about anything.

Makes all kinds of sense, and it also grows right out of the development of the banjo itself. Before ~1830, the banjo usually had 3 long strings and a short thumb string, and was most commonly tuned to a major chord, relatively gGBD (actually pitched ~3-7 frets lower than that). Sure, you're naturally going to play in G in that tuning, but it wouldn't have taken long for someone to figure out that it also worked pretty easily, and very musically, to use those G's as the fifth note instead of the root. The open strings are then the V chord, and the tonic chord is C (012).

Adding a lower string to expand the banjo's range, traditionally attributed to Joel Sweeney, is a logical development (which I'd guess wasn't just his idea). Someone used to playing a 4-stringer tuned to G would certainly want to tune an added bass string sometimes to C, and sometimes D.