MoJoBanjo - Posted - 12/10/2020:  06:19:03

In yesterday's rebuttal article posted in Bluegrass Today (bluegrasstoday.com/the-real-fa...381869677), Richard Smith, author of "Bluegrass: An Informal Guide and Can’t You Hear Me Callin’: The Life of Bill Monroe, Father of Bluegrass" makes a compelling argument for Bill Monroe. As a banjo player growing up, I always felt that Earl should have worn that crown. Now in my advancing years, I'd have to agree with Richard.....and not to take away from the many great forefathers of Bluegrass. I'm sure there is a plethora of opposing views...and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

KCJones - Posted - 12/10/2020:  06:38:59

I always kinda thought that Bill Monroe sired Bluegrass, but Flatt+Scruggs were the uncles that raised it up and taught it what it means to be a man.

Metaphorically speaking, of course.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 12/10/2020:  07:45:04

At the "grass roots" level, there are probably a large number of excellent and largely forgotten local musicians who introduced people to "bluegrass" music. And it was played in different forms at different times. I would not be surprised to hear someone say "I wish that new group would play music like Newgrass Revival". Like everything else, things keep changing.

Flatt and Scruggs probably did more to popularize this type of music. But popularizing and creating are two different things. To their credit, it seems like they just let their music speak for themselves.

The Old Timer - Posted - 12/10/2020:  07:45:21

I thought he hit the nail on the head in his final observation: Monroe is the Father; Earl was "keystone" in the successful bluegrass arch. Nothing wrong with being a keystone!

revellfa - Posted - 12/10/2020:  07:48:01

I've always thought Wade Mainer was the real father of Bluegrass. But, that's just my opinion.

janolov - Posted - 12/10/2020:  07:48:59

I think it is Bill Monroe who was the true Father of Bluegrass music. He was first to create a platform that later was used by several other musicians  used as a take-off. Earl Scruggs may be the father of Bluegrass Banjo, but it was, in my opinion, Bill Monroe who created the first Bluegrass music. 

heavy5 - Posted - 12/10/2020:  07:57:28

Latest issue of Bluegrass Unlimited is dedicated to "75 Years of Bluegrass'".

A lot of good perspectives there as to who is responsible and how it came about .

Edited by - heavy5 on 12/10/2020 08:12:59

phb - Posted - 12/10/2020:  09:13:01

Father, uncles, keystone. And then there even is a king of bluegrass...

Bronx banjo - Posted - 12/10/2020:  09:13:07

As the employer, Monroe should get for credit for his hiring acumen. He also deserves credit for experimenting with country music by making it faster and, at the same time, more traditional. But as an experimenter, he didn’t seem to have a cohesive plan for what his music should be. I think Scruggs along with Flatt gave him the plan because on subsequent hirings, Monroe wanted the same sound and format from his sidemen that F and S provided. I think there can be more than one father or “creator” of bluegrass. (Monroe didn’t know he was the father until Ralph Rinzler told him.) The point is there can never be an answer that pleases everyone, but I strongly believe that if it were not for Scruggs’s banjo, there would be no bluegrass to talk about.

pappy c - Posted - 12/10/2020:  09:36:37

What was Scruggs playing before Monroe hired him? I find it hard to believe Earl invented everything we hear in those first recordings just then. I see Monroe bringing a kind of music from the porch to the big stage.

Turpen1 - Posted - 12/10/2020:  09:58:03

Just 2 cents to consider....according to conversations with some "elder statesmen" who have passed on, and a few noted historians of our music......When Monroe formed his group with the title "Bluegrass Boys"....his music at THAT time was not called bluegrass. It was considered a style of the broad term: Mountain Music. "Bluegrass Boys" identified them with the state of Kentucky at that time. Then, Monroe's music and the group became so much more distinct and popular with Earl's banjo playing. This group now stood out with new energy and rocket-like popularity, and the new accentuated sound quickly became commonly termed "Bluegrass music", as it was played by Monroe and the BLUEGRASS Boys (although Reno was also playing). This was all AFTER Earl joined the group. George Gruhn termed the instruments used (Monroe's Gibson Mandolin, Earl's Gibson Banjo, Flatt's '42 Martin D18,) the "first" instruments of what we call Bluegrass music...which typically is identified with a 5 string banjo. These are the instruments that set the standard and influence for those that followed. Lester and Earl certainly elevated the recognition and popularity of the music...but it seems the "boss" and leader of the "Bluegrass Boys" would be considered the "Father" of the music....and Earl gets some credit for the "Brand Name". Either way, I'm forever grateful for such wonderful music and the people who share it. :)

GeorgeG - Posted - 12/10/2020:  10:24:20

Would you agree that Bluegrass and Old Timey (or one of the other names it's given) are two distinct genres of music? OR, are they variations of one style of music? I'd say that Folk Music and Country Music are different genres, as are Cajun and Zydeco music. They are all wonderful, by the way. Just asking.

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/10/2020:  10:27:53

quote:

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

He also deserves credit for experimenting with country music by making it faster and, at the same time, more traditional.

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Monroe didn't really make country music faster. Listen to fast tunes by Sam & Kirk McGee with Arthur Smith, Uncle Dave Macon, etc. and the tempo is comparable to anything done by Monroe's early bands, maybe just a LITTLE slower. Monroe NEVER played as fast as some contemporary bluegrass bands, who seem (often un-musically) determined to set a new record each time. The way Monroe's timing was different was the drive in bluegrass - playing on top of or anticipating the beat, what he called "bluegrass time," which, for what it's worth, always seemed to be what he considered his music's defining characteristic.



He also wasn't making it *more* traditional (though he did an excellent job of carrying the "ancient tones," the modal characteristics of both the Anglo- and African-American traditional folk music he was drawing on, into his new music) ; he was an innovator and a synthesizer, blending blues, jazz, and Methodist, Holiness, and Baptist church music with the old-time stringband tradition (as far as the defining instrument of bluegrass music, for Monroe it was always the fiddle, not the banjo). This created a space for the acoustic stringband tradition to continue to grow and develop within the country music field.

As far as I'm concerned, Monroe is the Father, as much as anyone can be the "father" or inventor of a subgenre of music, which is by definition something communal, participatory, and thus the work of many hands.

I consider bluegrass a subgenre of country music, which is the name for what emerged when rural folk music (old-time) became a form of professional, commercial entertainment. You could also compare the relationship between old-time and bluegrass to that of the blues and jazz.

Edited by - UncleClawhammer on 12/10/2020 10:38:09

MoJoBanjo - Posted - 12/10/2020:  11:25:51

GREAT article! Thanks for posting. There is one paragraph that is pivotal and really adds to this discussion:

"Although many historians, fans, and bluegrass musicians, point to the day Earl Scruggs joined the Blue Grass Boys in December of 1945 as the birth of bluegrass, Monroe himself viewed the birth of his bluegrass music as actually dating back to 1939.  In a radio interview conducted in 1966, Monroe, referring to bluegrass music said, “It’s been 27 years now.”³  Which would date back to 1939, not 1945.  In that same interview, Monroe also stated,  “And with the Blue Grass Boys, it’s been kinda like you going to school—you’ve got a good teacher over you, somebody that knows what you should do and what shouldn’t do….so we have had to kinda set a pattern with bluegrass….and of course each year, why,  I have brought out a little something different as we’ve gone along.” So, to Monroe, adding Earl Scruggs banjo to the band was simply bringing out “something different” as part of the evolution of his developing sound."

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Originally posted by heavy5

Latest issue of Bluegrass Unlimited is dedicated to "75 Years of Bluegrass'".

A lot of good perspectives there as to who is responsible and how it came about .

 

 

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Bill H - Posted - 12/10/2020:  15:08:08

quote:

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Originally posted by janolov

I think it is Bill Monroe who was the true Father of Bluegrass music. He was first to create a platform that later was used by several other musicians  used as a take-off. Earl Scruggs may be the father of Bluegrass Banjo, but it was, in my opinion, Bill Monroe who created the first Bluegrass music. 

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I agree. I think the amount of hours and years he spent on the road, the volume of music he produced and the young musicians he nurtured have fairly earned him that tilte. I remember as a kid, everyone knew Bill Monroe. 

Edited by - Bill H on 12/10/2020 15:10:14

Bill Rogers - Posted - 12/10/2020:  20:22:40

Bluegrass is, at root, vocal music. So, imo, Earl may have filled out the instrumental side of it, but the singing goes to Monroe. The band, through a couple of permutations was always Monroe’s creation. It did not fold up when Flatt & Scruggs left. So...I have to give Monroe the credit for developing and focusing what we now call “Bluegrass.”

chuckv97 - Posted - 12/10/2020:  20:33:16

How many fiddlers played in B before Monroe?

stanleytone - Posted - 12/11/2020:  03:46:39

When all is said and done, i highly doubt that Bills music would have achieved the status it did were it not for Earl Scruggs banjo playing

mike gregory - Posted - 12/11/2020:  04:05:34

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

I always kinda thought that Bill Monroe sired Bluegrass, but Flatt+Scruggs were the uncles that raised it up and taught it what it means to be a man.



Metaphorically speaking, of course.

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As was said by that ancient musician, Pluncitus Pixit:

"A man's reach should exceed his 'grass, else what's a meta for?"

Ancient inventor of the 5-string

 

monstertone - Posted - 12/15/2020:  12:46:53

quote:

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Originally posted by stanleytone

When all is said and done, i highly doubt that Bills music would have achieved the status it did were it not for Earl Scruggs banjo playing

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It has long been known that Don Reno had appllied for & accepted the job, However, the war broke out & Don answered the call. Enter Earl Scrruggs. By the time the war ended, Earl's picking style had become synonomis with his name. Not wanting to be thought a copy cat,  Don changed his style of picking. Luck of the draw or quirk of fate? Earl just happened to be in the right place, at the right time.

The only question in my mind is, who gets credt for pushing the beat? Perhaps Earl had just naturally been playing like that. However, Bill Monroe was known for his distinctive mando chop to hold the band's timing. Had BIll recognized what was going on, used that & taught his side men how to deal with it? 

Edited by - monstertone on 12/15/2020 12:52:41

stanleytone - Posted - 12/15/2020:  13:07:27

Oh Bill was a genius for realizing what Earl brought to the table .

Eric A - Posted - 12/15/2020:  13:39:22

All I know is that, for me, Bluegrass starts in 1945 when Lester and Earl join Bill's band, then transfers overnight to Lester and Earl's own band, and then pretty much peters out in late 1953 when Benny Martin was done. Several good fiddlers in there. A few bass players. No dobro. Sometimes a mandolin, and sometimes not. Common denominator was Lester and Earl.

Hotrodtruck - Posted - 12/15/2020:  18:25:58

I remember someone commenting that Monroe's music was just string band music of the time. The banjo players were frailers or String Bean types. When Earl got in the band, Monroe's music changed. It wasn't called Bluegrass, but that's when the music started sounding like what we know as bluegrass.

IMO, Monroe had the voice, as well as the persistence to keep his music alive in hard times. As a result I think it's fair to call him the Father of Bluegrass music, but I think Earl put him there.

banjodobro56 - Posted - 12/15/2020:  18:40:37

Since others have posited opinions, I will throw in mine:

Bill Monroe may be rightly called the Father of Bluegrass Music.

But if it weren't for Earl Scruggs, no one would have listened to it.

And if it weren't for Louise Scruggs, no one would have paid for it!

banjodobro56 - Posted - 12/15/2020:  18:45:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric A

All I know is that, for me, Bluegrass starts in 1945 when Lester and Earl join Bill's band, then transfers overnight to Lester and Earl's own band, and then pretty much peters out in late 1953 when Benny Martin was done. Several good fiddlers in there. A few bass players. No dobro. Sometimes a mandolin, and sometimes not. Common denominator was Lester and Earl.

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Oh pshaw! 

As I implore others on the sister Hangout, be kind to "the other resonator instrument"...

PS:  Eric, in what part of "God's Country" do you live?  I was born in Plymouth.

Edited by - banjodobro56 on 12/15/2020 18:48:09

Eric A - Posted - 12/15/2020:  21:40:22

quote:

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Originally posted by banjodobro56

quote:

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Originally posted by Eric A

All I know is that, for me, Bluegrass starts in 1945 when Lester and Earl join Bill's band, then transfers overnight to Lester and Earl's own band, and then pretty much peters out in late 1953 when Benny Martin was done. Several good fiddlers in there. A few bass players. No dobro. Sometimes a mandolin, and sometimes not. Common denominator was Lester and Earl.

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Oh pshaw! 

As I implore others on the sister Hangout, be kind to "the other resonator instrument"...

PS:  Eric, in what part of "God's Country" do you live?  I was born in Plymouth.

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Madison area.   I must have some shirttail relatives in Plymouth.   Some of my forebearers settled there straight from Germany wayyyyy back in the day.  I've been to Union Cemetery a couple of times taking pictures of tombstones.

Edited by - Eric A on 12/15/2020 21:45:39

The Old Timer - Posted - 12/16/2020:  07:54:51

Chris Jones speaks to this issue (the final word) in a column at Bluegrass Today website. Worth a read!!

bluegrasstoday.com/from-the-si...-for-all/

Edited by - The Old Timer on 12/16/2020 07:55:31

Paul R - Posted - 12/18/2020:  06:53:35

Who hired Earl?

What if he hadn't?

RB3 - Posted - 12/18/2020:  09:12:02

What if someone else had hired Earl? If it had been Roy Acuff, maybe we would now all be playing "Smokey Mountain Music". It's hard to predict the past.

Richard Hauser - Posted - 12/20/2020:  07:29:57

pappy c - In an article Earl Scruggs is quoted as saying he played with "Uncle Dave" Macon. Dave would jokingly tell Earl that he was a fine banjo player but not much of an entertainer.



We don't mention "Uncle Dave" often, but Dave drew crowds that were so large, building occupancy laws were sometime waived for his performances. He really "packed them in".

Edited by - Richard Hauser on 12/20/2020 07:30:40

UncleClawhammer - Posted - 12/20/2020:  08:29:59

quote:

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Originally posted by monstertone

The only question in my mind is, who gets credt for pushing the beat? Perhaps Earl had just naturally been playing like that. However, Bill Monroe was known for his distinctive mando chop to hold the band's timing. Had BIll recognized what was going on, used that & taught his side men how to deal with it? 

 

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I believe Monroe credited the 1940 version of "MuleSkinner Blues" (which he played guitar on) as "setting the time" for bluegrass music.

tbab2057 - Posted - 12/31/2020:  07:02:55

Carlton Haney says:

Pythagorus

 

mike gregory - Posted - 12/31/2020:  07:09:27

Maybe MAURY POVITCH could listen to some albums and settle this!