Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/359547
jun3machina - Posted - 12/16/2019: 10:40:36
curious your thoughts on this....wondering it its primarily an ODE banjo, with a B&D armrest added or if it's more of a parts banjo overall (totally mismatched goods). Also wondering if the checking/crazing of the finish on the heel looks very problematic?
Lane_Narrows - Posted - 12/16/2019: 10:48:52
The only comparison I have is to my memories of the Style C I owned for 25+ years.. Almost nothing here looks like that banjo, expect the inlay pattern on the neck.
banjonz - Posted - 12/16/2019: 10:52:23
The TP, flange and coord rods look like they are off a style D. The rest most likely off a style C perhaps?
banjoham - Posted - 12/16/2019: 11:37:25
what seems original ODE is the tailpiece, the neck, the hooks and nuts, the coordinator rods, the tuners and the flange (unplated brass)
there's a gap between the tone ring and the rim, the color of the rim is strange, the neck cut of the resonator and the wall lugs are in the wrong place, the neck doesn't fit snug to the rim, the cracks in the heel might just be in the finish
FXHERE - Posted - 12/16/2019: 11:50:15
Most of it is Ode from somewhere. The B&D armrest could fit as some Odes have a B&D bolt pattern. The neck is Baldwin made, as per the adjustment hole in heel, and the fact that Ode never built a C model. The tailpiece is either D,E.F The rim???. Still should sound good. Enjoy it.
jun3machina - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:00:32
the rim is dusty. Its in need of some minor repair....two tuning buttons need replacement. Can I replace just the buttons without replacing the whole tuning machine? I wonder if there should be any numbers stamped in the rim, or if it'd be possible to date? i have been following your leads and looking up 70's/80's ODES as this is past the original aluminum rim manufacture I am more familiar with. Many thanks for the expertise, please keep them coming
dmiller - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:07:41
I agree with Rolf. Also - - your resonator doesn't look like it's made of walnut (mahogany maybe)? The neck does have the Ode geared truss rod adjustment hole, and it (from the pictures) is a walnut 5 piece laminated neck with the Ode "C" model inlay. The tailpiece on your banjo looks just the same as the one I have on my Baldwin Ode D (which is not stock on the C model). If the crazing/ checking on the neck is only "skin deep" (i.e. just the finish and not the neck itself), I don't think you have anything to worry about there at all. The color of the rim is puzzling to me, but it has the same amount of laminations on it that my 72 Baldwin Ode D has, so I'm tempted to believe it is Ode made also.
Edited by - dmiller on 12/16/2019 12:13:22
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:09:18
I wanted to bid on that, but the heel scared me off. I believe this started as an ode. Why anyone would rob the armrest and tension hoop and leave the nice tailpiece is beyond me. However, there were a few imports with ode like flanges with black rims, and that left question in my mind also. I suspect the heel is going to need repair once you get it apart, those are some serious looking cracks. Hopefully, it’s just in the finish, but if so, why just there? I suspect stress cracks from serious drop that took out stock resonator, as it’s not there either.
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:10:47
A black rim poorly sanded, or stripped, would look gray.
banjoham - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:26:01
I don't think it's an ODE rim, the edges are too sharp, they are usually rounded a little bit, the color is suspicious and it doesn't fit with the tone ring...but as for the original parts it should be a fair price
jun3machina - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:37:48
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
I wanted to bid on that, but the heel scared me off. I believe this started as an ode. Why anyone would rob the armrest and tension hoop and leave the nice tailpiece is beyond me. However, there were a few imports with ode like flanges with black rims, and that left question in my mind also. I suspect the heel is going to need repair once you get it apart, those are some serious looking cracks. Hopefully, it’s just in the finish, but if so, why just there? I suspect stress cracks from serious drop that took out stock resonator, as it’s not there either.
good observation. I had wondered if it was drying, as the heel has crazing too which looked like perhaps from being stored in a dry environment? but a good knock could cause it too.
jun3machina - Posted - 12/16/2019: 12:47:04
better image of the tuners in question
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 13:24:18
Also explains broken off top 2 tuners. A hell of a hit. Drop, fall, ship damage.
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 13:25:20
That’s no ode resonator. Look at the inside veneer sideways, ode wouldn’t have done that.
jun3machina - Posted - 12/16/2019: 13:33:53
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
Also explains broken off top 2 tuners. A hell of a hit. Drop, fall, ship damage.
Appreciate your input! I really do. Im keeping my fingers crossed its just finish cracks. The seller already packed it up and so can only send me pictures they took prior to packaging.
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 13:56:16
Does your lower portion of the wooden rim, down at the 3rd flange cutout have a small circle of wood, like a dowel plug?
In other words, if you have resonator off, and holding banjo up and down in front of you on your lap. To the left of your heel, at location of 3rd flange cutout, is there a wooden plug. It’s about quarter inch and is obvious it interrupts about 5 ply of the stock rim.
If you cannot see, take a better pic and post, and that’ll tell us immediately if it’s stock ode wooden rim.
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 13:58:01
Also, stock ode resonator attachment points are at 3rd flange cutout from each direction.. down from heel and up from tailpiece screw hole. Symmetrical.
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 14:04:19
Tone ring is not fitted to rim. Stock rim is stained to match walnut neck and reso. How brown stain could be sanded down to black is beyond me.
There were import copies of ode pot assy. Those are ode rods, tailpiece, I think flange, hooks and nuts. Unsure on tone ring or rim. Neck is clearly ode.
Besides tone ring not seated, heel shows lots of distance. Not seated either. Yet, coordinator rods appeared tightened. I suspect damage and what you see on heel is pressure cracks. And the damage sheared off too 2 tuners, busted resonator, perhaps tension hoop, as it’s changed also. Perhaps busted off armrest, so this was swapped. Perhaps stock tailpiece on there is good, perhaps has issues.
You’ll know when you get it and disassemble
Brett - Posted - 12/16/2019: 14:06:10
Again, not ode tension hoop. That’s split tension hoop for flat bracket hooks this doesn’t have.
mike gregory - Posted - 12/16/2019: 14:16:15
EEEwww, the tuners!
Doesn't look like there's any shaft there to put new buttons on.
But, it's entirely possible that, if the price is right, and you don't insist on all the tuners looking the same, it might just turn out to play well and sound nice.
And those are the two most important features of ANY banjo, in my humming bull opinion.
(Especially on a Frankenbanjo.)
mike gregory - Posted - 12/16/2019: 14:16:44
EEEwww, the tuners!
Doesn't look like there's any shaft there to put new buttons on.
But, it's entirely possible that, if the price is right, and you don't insist on all the tuners looking the same, it might just turn out to play well and sound nice.
And those are the two most important features of ANY banjo, in my humming bull opinion.
(Especially on a Frankenbanjo.)
J.Albert - Posted - 12/16/2019: 14:44:31
That's one that I would let "go by"...
jun3machina - Posted - 12/16/2019: 18:28:19
some more pictures...for science
Brett - Posted - 12/17/2019: 06:43:21
Looks like someone drilled the flange to install non ode armrest.
Where the finger is pointing is opposite where the 1/4” dowel will be in rim. I believe that was a factory deal for production or something. Can’t see well enough on sanded down rim to tell. I can’t imagine how walnut brown stain could be sanded to gray though. That’s not dusty, the finish has been sanded off.
jun3machina - Posted - 12/17/2019: 07:37:19
Yeah the B&D armrest on the ode makes no sense eccept maybe it had some sentimenral value to the owner...
jun3machina - Posted - 12/17/2019: 10:36:13
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
Tone ring is not fitted to rim. Stock rim is stained to match walnut neck and reso. How brown stain could be sanded down to black is beyond me.
There were import copies of ode pot assy. Those are ode rods, tailpiece, I think flange, hooks and nuts. Unsure on tone ring or rim. Neck is clearly ode.
Besides tone ring not seated, heel shows lots of distance. Not seated either. Yet, coordinator rods appeared tightened. I suspect damage and what you see on heel is pressure cracks. And the damage sheared off too 2 tuners, busted resonator, perhaps tension hoop, as it’s changed also. Perhaps busted off armrest, so this was swapped. Perhaps stock tailpiece on there is good, perhaps has issues.
You’ll know when you get it and disassemble
do you know when the imports started being made? im thinking mid 70's? i know ODE sold parts to stew mac for kits and I think just selling unmarked factory pieces to build your own. I really wont know anything exactly till i get this in hand. I will def post more pictures then.
jun3machina - Posted - 12/17/2019: 10:39:37
quote:
Originally posted by mike gregory
EEEwww, the tuners!
Doesn't look like there's any shaft there to put new buttons on.
But, it's entirely possible that, if the price is right, and you don't insist on all the tuners looking the same, it might just turn out to play well and sound nice.
And those are the two most important features of ANY banjo, in my humming bull opinion.
(Especially on a Frankenbanjo.)
yeah, I was hoping the tuning peg was just busted, but these pictures confirmed more damage. Are these custom ODE factory tuners, or did they start outsourcing later, if this is indeed a Baldwin era and not ODE era banjo? im looking to see if i can find a pair of replacements that match as close as one could get
jun3machina - Posted - 12/17/2019: 10:42:50
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
Does your lower portion of the wooden rim, down at the 3rd flange cutout have a small circle of wood, like a dowel plug?
In other words, if you have resonator off, and holding banjo up and down in front of you on your lap. To the left of your heel, at location of 3rd flange cutout, is there a wooden plug. It’s about quarter inch and is obvious it interrupts about 5 ply of the stock rim.
If you cannot see, take a better pic and post, and that’ll tell us immediately if it’s stock ode wooden rim.
thank you again for all your expertise. I will make sure to take note when I receive it and take as many pictures as I can.
Brett - Posted - 12/17/2019: 11:01:14
The import copies I recall were named shobud. There may have been other copy pots. I don’t know. But there was an import ode type cutout flange.
The history was Ode, to Baldwin, then Baldwin ode both on peghead, then ode, if I recall correctly. The name moved around.
It is possible an unplanted flange made it out of the factory, I guess. As long as your neck turns out healthy, that’ll be a huge plus. And maybe the heel isn’t cracked, perhaps those visible marks are in the finish only.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/04/2020: 13:52:46
Well after nearly a month being in shipment doldrums it arrived today. It had the worst packing job I've ever had on an instrument before. So what did I get myself into? Pot in question is wood ply and has a finish (not sanded down like discussed earlier) although it has a thick layer of dust and dirt on it. The whole thing needs to be taken apart and cleaned. Non-ODE b&d armrest... missing two hooks and nuts. Resonator seems to fit flange well, but not sure if uts original either. Please let me know if I should snap pics of anything else. Or tuner suggestions if you got them... neck is pretty flat and wear free, besides some craving of the shellac here and there. Cracks near heel in the finish look superficial and not anything damaged on the wood.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/04/2020: 14:31:55
More pictures
jun3machina - Posted - 01/04/2020: 17:05:33
More photos
jun3machina - Posted - 01/04/2020: 17:57:33
For some reason I'm having trouble with the uploader
mikehalloran - Posted - 01/04/2020: 19:39:59
ODE tuners of the era look suspiciously like Schallers. They had stainless steel bodies except for the gold plated ones. Vega used them for awhile in the 1960s, too, and they were sold in the aftermarket. The ODE mail order parts department is what eventually became Stew-Mac.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/05/2020: 09:03:33
Rim
Edited by - jun3machina on 01/05/2020 09:06:06
Brett - Posted - 01/05/2020: 09:09:22
I notice a washer in the neck pocket between wooden rim and neck heel. That shouldn’t be there. Perhaps some kinda shim attempt. I think I also see round bracket hooks on a non ode tension hoop that looks to be designed for flat hooks. Of course neck is ode, flange looks to be, as are coordinator rods, and tailpiece. Unsure about nickel plated tone ring.
I’d really want to disassemble, were it mine, to ensure the heel and lag bolts are healthy. I hope it is just finish crazing. And it does appear to be so with better pix. If there is any wood issues in heel, best to address proper glue/clamp, prior to full tension with strings.
When you removed the sheered off top 2 tuning pegs, how was the wood around them? Any splintering or repairs?
Brett - Posted - 01/05/2020: 09:10:17
Rim and resonator are not ode.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/05/2020: 09:17:02
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
I notice a washer in the neck pocket between wooden rim and neck heel. That shouldn’t be there. Perhaps some kinda shim attempt. I think I also see round bracket hooks on a non ode tension hoop that looks to be designed for flat hooks. Of course neck is ode, flange looks to be, as are coordinator rods, and tailpiece. Unsure about nickel plated tone ring.
I’d really want to disassemble, were it mine, to ensure the heel and lag bolts are healthy. I hope it is just finish crazing. And it does appear to be so with better pix. If there is any wood issues in heel, best to address proper glue/clamp, prior to full tension with strings.
When you removed the sheered off top 2 tuning pegs, how was the wood around them? Any splintering or repairs?
Appreciate it! If I were to disassemble, would you have a method to the madness? I've done it before, but never messed with a banjo with co-rods. I'd assume, start from tailpiece and then disassemble from there up to the neck, correct? I didnt have much time to look it over more yesterday besides taking the pictures. I'll do more today and take those sheared tuners off. I noticed a small glue mark near the nut. I need to see if this was an actual repair or if they were just securing some of the shellac if they replaced the nut and lifted something
Brett - Posted - 01/05/2020: 10:31:07
You might find a YouTube video on ode coordinator rods. But, the 2 knurled nuts on the coordinator rods up near neck end need to be backed off. The order to do that I don’t recall. It’s been quite awhile since I dissembled an ode, I think there is flathead thru rim at tailpiece you remove first, then back off rods, while backing off knurled coordinator rod nuts up near neck. But my memory is cloudy....once the coordinator knurled nuts are backed off you lift neck straight off away from pot.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/05/2020: 11:11:31
thanks! I'll look into this further before doing anything. Someone in the ODE group said the rim may be a stew mac...
TLG - Posted - 01/05/2020: 13:20:09
I saw the banjo on eBay , emailed the seller & ask questions & may have bid, if I remember, but went for more than I wanted to pay so jun3machina got it.
The rim & resonator is not ODE, as Brett said, & tonering is up for grabs unless I can see it in person, Neck, flange, rim rods is ODE.
Could be an employer made from parts or put together after the factory closed parts.
I purchased one in similar condition, real ODE neck, resonator, tonering, flange but not the rim & rim rods. The resonator had a hold drilled in the centre to attach it to the rim & my resonator did not have wall lugs & had never been drilled for wall lugs, so I am thinking it was put together from parts.
Yours, as with mine, is a project to be turned into a good banjo.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/05/2020: 16:46:48
So this afternoon I took it all apart and snapped pictures. I was thinking similar to the above post that perhaps it was parts from when the company was sold.
Brett - Posted - 01/05/2020: 18:06:23
Congrats having no heel breaks, very odd how it had those finish issues only on the heel.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/05/2020: 18:17:21
agreed. i even looked at it with a jewelers loop. superficial and where the flange meets the heel so im thinking the flange must have absorbed the impact that caused the cracks. but seems pretty solid, luckily
Brett - Posted - 01/06/2020: 15:48:24
The tone ring holes in the pix show a lot of roughness and shards from drilling I’ve not seen on the only 2 Odes I’ve ever disassembled. Ode was super high quality. I would just snag a couple of used five star tuners, to install for now, to get it up and running.
If I recall the pix from eBay, there was a fifth tuner and 2 regular tuners, so you could get by with a pair, even unmatched.
What you have to watch is how much you put into one, because you might not like it. Or, it could have some weird issue you won’t find until you get it going.
jun3machina - Posted - 01/06/2020: 20:27:42
quote:
Originally posted by Brett
The tone ring holes in the pix show a lot of roughness and shards from drilling I’ve not seen on the only 2 Odes I’ve ever disassembled. Ode was super high quality. I would just snag a couple of used five star tuners, to install for now, to get it up and running.
If I recall the pix from eBay, there was a fifth tuner and 2 regular tuners, so you could get by with a pair, even unmatched.
What you have to watch is how much you put into one, because you might not like it. Or, it could have some weird issue you won’t find until you get it going.
so no real way to determine make of the tone ring then. as I take apart and see what was where and marks of assembly, etc. trying to determine exactly why all these parts were put together this way. and what exactly happened to the original banjo as I suspect it was whole at some part of its lifetime...
Due to a few things, including the manner of shipping and packaging (or lack thereof) I managed to get a bit of a discount so I feel a bit better about purchasing this as parts. But I would of course like to make something whole again from something broken.
Brett - Posted - 01/07/2020: 13:59:05
Tone rings are funny. I suspect there is only about 3-4 manufacturers making them, and it’s rare they are marked.
'I'm Liberated!' 2 hrs
'Mahog bow tie.' 13 hrs
