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Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/02/2019: 14:07:00
I just finished three banjos that couldn’t be more different from one another—(1) a 12” SuperWoodie that can be strung with steel or nylon, (2) a lightweight 12” A-scale (24“) SuperWoodie, strung with red nylgut, (3) a 12” TuBaTone 6-string with a 22” scale. Each one has its own charm, and presented different challenges to design and build.
I’m going to break these up so I can put sound files at the end of each section. I can’t figure out how to get them where I want them in the thread— they always wind up at the end instead of in context.
I’ll start with the dual-strung SuperWoodie. Here’s a picture of it.
On the surface it looks pretty much like the standard 12” New Vintage, but there are some differences. The design brief for this was that (1) it should be able to be strung with either nylon or steel without having to change the setup (2) It has a wide fingerboard— the client plays classical guitar, wanted it wide and wants to be able to play it bare fingered, so I’m thinking it has to be assertive and have a real voice. Other than that, it should be 12”, regular amber head, SuperWoodie tonering. cherry natural color, no scoop.
We wanted cherry, and as fate would have it, the person ordering the 6-string discussed later in this thread, also wanted cherry, so I made two 12“ rims with a cherry outer ply, a cherry second ply, a beech third ply to give it as much stiffness as possible to bring it up to maple stiffness, and then cherry for the inner veneer. I made the outer and inner from a particularly beautiful piece of cherry from a log I had that has great color.
Actually, I’ve never seen a piece of black cherry quite like it and also made a table from the same log.
Here you can see a side view of the pot and see that cherry. The straight grain quarter cherry I used for the neck is lighter in color, but cherry gets darker over time. No stain on any of this. Cherry is probably my favorite banjo wood.
My normal fingerboards are 1.31” at the nut, this one is 1. 46” and the string spacing at the bridge is 1.95” I don’t know if you can sense the extra width in the picture.
When you want to string a banjo with both steel and nylon strings, I think you have to compromise in terms of clearances, action and things like that, but nylon wants a wider fingerboard and higher string clearance. I recently started a thread asking for width advice for nylon string fingerboards, and got a lot of great advice and help from members of this forum. The proportions here are a result of that.
The client has a Deering Goodtime and the strings are not evenly spaced. It bothers her, and she asked me to make sure the strings are even. Since this banjo will be used for both steel and nylon strings, it’s impossible to get both of them perfectly even because the string rides against one side of the slot and nylon strings are thicker than steel. Not wanting to require the player to switch nuts, I tried my best to hit the happy medium, and set it up with steel as the default. Here is a picture of the middle of the fingerboard. The width is 1.85” at the 5th fret. You can see how the space beyond the 4th string tapers out as it approaches the 5th fret. This is something discussed in the thread about fingerboard width, and is an important detail. You’ll also notice the brass pip with the wide slot to allow for nylon strings. I now make all pips from brass—it matches the EVO fret wire I use and they don’t break. Also interesting is spikes used with nylon strings, which I wouldn’t have thought would work—they work if you install them right.
I had no problem whatsoever playing it—in fact it seems very easy to play. I like the space between the strings quite a bit.
In terms of the bridge, this is a hybrid—It’s a two-foot bridge, traditionally used on nylon strung banjos, but with “egyptienne” feet like some traditional bridges. It’s a moon bridge, not necessary with nylon strings, but I like them, and this is a dual-purpose bridge.
Heavier than nylon purists like, and it has a saddle, but I wanted this banjo to have a strong voice and be assertive, as I said- not plinky, and the client is going to play it bare fingered. I think the bridge need some mass.
The bridge placement here is the same as I would use for steel string banjos.
In the back of the picture, you see the tailpiece, which had to be made to work with both steel and nylon strings. I asked the client if she wanted a wooden tailpiece or a brass one, and she said she tended to lean towards brass unless I had some compelling logic for wood. Having none, I went with brass. There are pins for loop end strings and holes for ball-end ones. I tie a bowline in nylon strings and put an 8mm bead on it to make a ball-end.
Here are pictures of the tailpiece with both kinds of strings:
I like this tailpiece and think it works for different kinds of banjos and has more strength than wooden tailpieces (which I also like) You’ll see a couple of wood tailpieces later on.
What does it sound like? When I first set it up with steel strings and brought it up from the shop, I played it for a little bit and my wife said “what a voice!”. It does have quite a voice.
Since the point of this instrument is to be able to play with either steel or m nylon strings without having to make a new nut and bridge, I thought the sound files here should show both, so I made a steel-nylon comparison. As I have said many times, I am a builder, not a performer, so these are not Grammy winning tunes.
You’ll hear the same tunes with the other banjos on this thread, for continuity.
I did a bare finger one or more comparison. It’s hard for me to play bare fingered - it upsets my timing and my fingernail sometimes gets hooked—I'll post the bare finger one later because I can't get it to appear where I want it on this post.
The other two banjos will follow, probably tomorrow.
R Buck - Posted - 03/02/2019: 14:34:51
I like your tailpiece design, real user friendly and kind of Gothic all at once. I'm sure these banjos sound great, they look mighty fine.
Edited by - R Buck on 03/02/2019 14:35:09
Banjo Lefty - Posted - 03/02/2019: 15:16:07
That tailpiece would do well on a steam-punk banjo!
Dan Drabek - Posted - 03/02/2019: 15:39:27
Looks beautiful and sounds excellent, Ken. I prefer the sound of steel strings, but that would probably change if the banjo were frailed.
The banjo has your classic LeVan styling. I think I would recognize it even if unmarked. Good taste and just the right amount of bling are hallmarks of your work. Also premium wood selection.
I really like this latest tailpiece. I've seen it evolve over the years I've been on this forum and I think you've really perfected the design with this version. The shape and contours are highly developed and nothing looks out of place. I'm sure you could sell tailpieces and do well, but I know the kind of time involved in handmade pieces like this. Your client is getting a really nice detail in a surprisingly affordable instrument. I think your handmade banjos are possibly the best value on the market in comparison with what is available from the more commercial brands.
Looking forward to seeing the other banjos in the set. Your photos and presentation are always exceptional.
DD
BNJOMAKR - Posted - 03/02/2019: 16:58:26
As always, innovative and precise craftsmanship!
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/02/2019: 17:50:22
Thanks, guys,
I appreciated R Bucks comment that the tailpiece looks Gothic. I hadn't consciously thought of that, but I have a tendency to go towards medieval style - I spent many an hour as a kid looking at the armor in the Metropolitan Museum, and went through a lot of castles while in the Army stationed in Germany, so I can see that influence in the tailpiece and other things I make; medieval lends itself to hand-making. A 6-string version of it will come up later.
Dan, I like the steel strings, too, but it's always interesting to hear a comparison with the same banjo. Later I'll compare LaBella nylon lute strings with red Nylguts.
I've turned down a lot of requests over the years for tailpieces, armrests, tone rings, and bridges. I just don't have time to make parts per se —I would get badly distracted.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 03/02/2019 17:52:09
HarleyQ - Posted - 03/02/2019: 18:39:41
A work of Art Ken!!
OldNavyGuy - Posted - 03/02/2019: 18:40:41
Nice work.
Chris270 - Posted - 03/03/2019: 00:46:09
Beautiful banjos. I have to say both the steel and nylon strings sound great!
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/03/2019: 05:04:18
Next is the 24” scale A banjo.
This one has a 12” pot, a skin head, and a maple tailpiece. I went all out for the old-time sound with this one since the client is strictly a skin-head and nylon guy. Also, he was very clear about what he wanted.
Normally, when I think about “A” banjos, I think of 11“ or even 10" heads.
The idea of a 12” A banjo was very interesting. I made a drawing of it, which I sent to the client to make sure we were on the same page with the proportions—also we had been discussing inlay ideas.
Here’s a picture of how it came out:
This is a lightweight banjo, with a aluminum bracket band an aluminum skirt on the SuperWoodie, an aluminum flesh hoop on the skin head, and an aluminum tension hoop. With the wood tailpiece it weighs 6# 10 oz..
The rim is maple and the tone ring is a SuperWoodie made from ipe with, as I said earlier has an aluminum skirt instead of the usual brass. Here’s a picture:
The SuperWoodie fits in to the rim via the skirt like a cast tone ring and because of its width acts like a stiffening flange. The previous banjo on this thread has the same tonering, but with a brass skirt
The aluminum parts are all patinated to look bronzy. Here’s a close-up of the finish—It makes a nice combination with the lighter patina brass.
Because it’s not possible to butt-weld aluminum very well, I first butt-weld the joint, then reinforce it with an epoxied and bolted joint for the bracket band and tension hoop. Here you can see it:
The inlays are very simple, green abalone with a celtic cross at the 5th-6th frets and quatrefoils. The wood is curly maple.
vgy.me/NbyO0K.jpg
The bridge on this is a 2-footed one with a saddle. I am not a real fan of no-saddle bridges, but it’s easy enough to change if need be. I know all the conventional wisdom, but I was right next to David Politzer when he did the tests used on his bridge paper, and I know that if bridges are too light, you lose something, so I’d rather err on the side of more frequencies rather than less—science meets tradition.
The tailpiece is maple and made to accept ball-end strings, which I make by tying a bowline in the nylon string and using an 8mm plastic bead which doesn’t nick the string. It works very well.
This is a fun banjo to play—lightweight and compact. It’s strung with the new red nylgut strings, which I have never tried before, and I like them! I didn’t break any, which I can’t say for the amber ones. They took a while to stretch, and it’s scary t-u-n-i-n-g them up (I wore safety glasses while tightening them) but I like the way it sounds. Even with the skin head and more central bridge position, it still has the really snappy sound I was after.
Here’s a file of what it sounds like, and just for fun, a file comparing the red nylgut strings to the LaBella lute strings (the lute strings are on the previous banjo in this thread). I capoed the banjo with the lute strings to the second fret so it’s the same as the A banjo and did the comparison - obviously in the key of A. Not apples to apples - one has a skin head, the other a ren amber head, different bridge placement, different tailpiece, but you can hear the sound of each one for what it's worth.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 03/03/2019 05:12:24
Dan Drabek - Posted - 03/03/2019: 10:54:36
They sound great Ken. I personally prefer the nylon over the Nylgut. The nylon has beautiful clarity and a cleaner sound than I get from the Nylgut. I'm not a big fan of nylon strung banjos, but I could be happy playing that one.
The lightweight banjo has more overtones and sustain than the other. It loses some of the clarity and quick decay in the process, but it adds warmth and character. I'd be hard pressed to choose a favorite between the two banjos.
DD
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/03/2019: 13:13:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Drabek
They sound great Ken. I personally prefer the nylon over the Nylgut. The nylon has beautiful clarity and a cleaner sound than I get from the Nylgut. I'm not a big fan of nylon strung banjos, but I could be happy playing that one.
The lightweight banjo has more overtones and sustain than the other. It loses some of the clarity and quick decay in the process, but it adds warmth and character. I'd be hard pressed to choose a favorite between the two banjos.
DD
Thanks, Dan— they each have their own personality
Those rectified nylon lute strings were recommended by Joel Hooks on this forum a while back, when I made my first nylon strung banjo and was frustrated by the Nylguts.
Joel recommended the lute strings and posted what gauges he uses for classic playing, and I immediately ordered some of them. They have been referred to by some as "more agressive" than the nylguts, but I like them. What I particularly like is the silver plated copper wound 4th string and the less likelihood to break with the 5th string, even spiked as it was in this sound file. I went up several gauges from Joel's formula, but that's easy to do because they are sold as individual strings in any gauge you want. The nylguts come in sets, and I don't think you can vary from that, but I might be wrong
Anyway, these red nylguts are new and I like them too! They are different, and I wanted to illustrate the difference with sound files— some people like one sound, others like a different sound.
If I was a better player, especially with nylon, I could have made a more satisfying comparison.
kwl - Posted - 03/03/2019: 17:01:00
Gee, I go away for the weekend with limited internet access and come home to see some beautiful works of art and fine looking musical instruments on my computer. Oh, and the also sound wonderful. Ken, I am amazed at the fine work you do. Thank you for sharing what you do.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/04/2019: 05:34:48
Last, but not least, the 6 string banjo with the 22” scale. VERY unusual, I think.
The client wanted a bright sound and 17-19 frets before the pot. I had to figure out how to proportion this.
Here’s a rough drawing - the peghead on this is a Martin-type, but in the end I did a scroll type:
Here’s a picture of the actual instrument. It's very compact and I like the proportion between the short scale and 12" pot. It looks like a banjo mandolin enlarged 200%
This has a 12” pot and a TuBaTone setup in order to get the desired sound. The rim is the same cherry / beech combination as the first banjo on this thread—I made them together.
The TuBaTone pot has the bronze tube tonering, a bracket band with the shoes brazed on, and at three inches, is deeper than the Vega TuBaPhone pot. The TuBaTone is becoming popular, and I have recently made quite a few, even a 14” one I showed on an earlier thread.
You can see the dual-rod Rudy rod system I use on 6-strings and bluegrass banjos. I talked about this before, but here is a photo of the parts. This isn’t needed on normal banjos, but I use it where some tension is needed at the bottom.
Here’s a pic showing the scroll peghead.
I used a wood tailpiece, which I like quite a bit. It has a brass post that holds it against the tension band. The bridge here is a little heavier than for a 5 string, but I think the 6 strings need it.
I have also also designed a brass one that can be used on 6 strings. You can use either loop-end or ball-end strings - this is the 6-string version of the one in the first banjo on this thread. It has a lot of weight.
As for the sound, it has an other-worldly sound. Sadly, I can’t really play this because I don’t know what to do with the low string, and I haven't played the guitar for a long while. Since it has a 22”scale, I tuned it to what would be second fret capo on a banjo: a A E A C# E. I guess you could call it "triple A tuning". The customer wants the 6th string to be a high string, which makes it have more of a banjo sound than a guitar sound, musically. This is strung with steel strings - extra light gauge guitar strings and the 6th string has been replaced with a 10 gauge, so both the 1st and 6th strings are 10 gauge, which was requested by the client. I tuned it all the way up to A, as if it was spiked at the 5th fret, and it works. I have never heard anything like this before - it has a remarkable sound. I have had a similar experience with another 12” TuBaTone (5-string) tuned played in A. It has an amazing sustain, clarity, and ring, otherworldly, as I said earlier. I wish I could really play it. The best I can do for this thread is this tune where I don’t really use the low string.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 03/04/2019 05:48:46
lab_dad - Posted - 03/06/2019: 06:48:27
Beautiful work as always!
I really like the "pins" on those bridges, much better than allen screws.
May be "upgraded" bridges will be available for earlier versions?
Did you get my email?
Martin
FlyinEagle - Posted - 03/06/2019: 07:44:23
Man, that cherry is gorgeous. Wow.
Love that patinated look on the alum. Is it a hard finish like an anodization?
I think my ear most prefers banjo number 1 with the steel strings, and I really like the “convertibility” to be able to string it up with nylon. That 6 string really has a really cool tone to it, too.
It’s always great to see your work, thanks for posting.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/06/2019: 14:05:19
quote:
Originally posted by lab_dad
Beautiful work as always!
I really like the "pins" on those bridges, much better than allen screws.
May be "upgraded" bridges will be available for earlier versions?
Did you get my email?
Martin
I will probably use the pins going forward. They are not as strong as the little allen bolts, but can be installed without having to thread the tailpiece 5 times and so far no pins have broken. Can't say how many of those #4 taps I have broken.
I FINALLY found your email. I having been having problems with my email server ever since I switched from POP to IMAP, and stuff goes in to the junk - even from people like you in my contacts, although you have changed your email address, which is probably why it went into the junk. Sooner or later I will get it straightened out. I always like it when people say this stuff is "intuitive". It's only intuitive if you already know how it works.
In answer to your question, I haven't forgotten about your bridges, I just have not made them as yet. Some day, I will make a setup, spend a whole day making bridges, including a few short ones, and stockpile them. Ditto tailpieces. Actually tailpieces are easier to mass produce because they are always the same size.
When I make a banjo, I make a bridge specifically for that banjo as part of the setup, and don't have a box of them already made to draw from. I have a bunch that were not the right height for some banjo I was making, and sometimes they will work on another, but my bridges are all considerably higher than the ones you want, so I don't have any around, even partially made ones - I have to start from scratch.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/06/2019: 14:45:24
quote:
Originally posted by FlyinEagle
Man, that cherry is gorgeous. Wow.
Love that patinated look on the alum. Is it a hard finish like an anodization?
I think my ear most prefers banjo number 1 with the steel strings, and I really like the “convertibility” to be able to string it up with nylon. That 6 string really has a really cool tone to it, too.
It’s always great to see your work, thanks for posting.
Thanks, Jeff,
That cherry is from a log the forestry guys cut down and left beside the road down near Masten. It was hollow in the middle, so nobody bothered with it. I had a permit for firewood, and decided to drag it out and see what it looked like when I cut it with the sawmill. It was one of a kind and I made a table out of it. You never know. I dragged another bigger log, also hollow in the middle that was right next to it and it's sitting on the side of my road, currently covered with snow - I hope it's the same color. I think the color comes from the ant colonies that are in the center of the logs. Cherry is an amazing wood.
The patina on the aluminum is an acid compound you have to apply to the aluminum immediately after cleaning it, while heating it with a torch. It makes a lot of smoke and smells bad, you have to work fast, but it gives the aluminum that textural brown color - I think it eats into the surface of the metal a bit. Then you have to seal it with some other stuff. It's not easy to do, but aluminum is a difficult metal to patina because it has an oxide coating. I really like the way it comes out.
I thought it was interesting to make an apples-to-apples comparison of steel to nylon. You don't get to hear that, particularly from someone who has no axe to grind.
I really like playing that banjo bare fingered, which is what the client is planning to do. I am about to send it out, and checked the tuning today. The strings keep stretching, and both that one and the A banjo with the red Nylguts lost about 1/2 step in two days. I think they are nearing equilibrium. I like them both and can't decide between the lute strings and the Nylghuts
The 6-string continues to have an otherworldly sound, and I don't know why. I can't wait to hear what the person I made that for plays with it.
I have different banjos going out all the time, and I get to hear all of them and play them - of course this informs me, I am lucky, and because of that, I have a sense of the differences in sound. You know I have a bunch of banjos here including a pre-war Granada and a Vega Pete Seeger - I always wish people could come here and play them because sound files are great, but there is nothing like hearing in person.
Dan Drabek - Posted - 03/06/2019: 15:53:53
Now that's a robust looking banjo, Ken. It has a lot of pop to the sound. I think it will never have a problem being heard. The recording doesn't spotlight the low string, but I'm sure it will add a lot of possibilities for the right player. Keeping the drone string up on top should make it fairly easy to get used to playing for the average banjo picker.
The tailpiece is also handsome. I like the look of the "s" curve saddle. Being behind the bridge I don't suppose it has much auditory function, but it does add some good looks, as well as resisting any splitting of the tailpiece along the grain. I could see the tailpiece done in ebony, like a violin tailpiece, but with the bone saddle.
You have been a busy guy, but the quality of your work looks as high as usual.
DD
Ken LeVan - Posted - 03/06/2019: 16:19:47
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Drabek
Now that's a robust looking banjo, Ken. It has a lot of pop to the sound. I think it will never have a problem being heard. The recording doesn't spotlight the low string, but I'm sure it will add a lot of possibilities for the right player. Keeping the drone string up on top should make it fairly easy to get used to playing for the average banjo picker.
The tailpiece is also handsome. I like the look of the "s" curve saddle. Being behind the bridge I don't suppose it has much auditory function, but it does add some good looks, as well as resisting any splitting of the tailpiece along the grain. I could see the tailpiece done in ebony, like a violin tailpiece, but with the bone saddle.
You have been a busy guy, but the quality of your work looks as high as usual.
DD
Thanks, Dan,
The s-curve is as much reinforcement as anything. It's epoxied into a shallow groove, there is another one underneath, and there is a stainless steel reinforcement washer epoxied under the bridge tail where the post that attaches it to the pot goes through.
Wood tailpieces are under a lot of strain with steel strings, especially 6, and they can break. Being made from mahogany, it ought to be strong enough, but this is why I have designed a brass version as a fall-back in the case of a failure. A cherry one I made broke recently right where the attachment post goes through the tail.
Dan Drabek - Posted - 03/06/2019: 16:45:32
Yes--you're in unexplored territory with this instrument. You may have to deal with occasional complications before you get all the kinks ironed out. I'd guess that a brass tailpiece would work just fine, and might even sound better. Though it sounds pretty damn good as it is.
DD
