westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  04:06:39

Howdy,

I just noticed that a hide head that I had lying around has two separate layers of hide. I don't know a whole lot about hide heads and was wondering if this is normal? Maybe I just never noticed it before? I would assume that two layers might dampen the sound a little.

Thanks in advance!

jbalch - Posted - 02/21/2018:  04:45:06

It is not "normal" to use two plys of hide. Can you post photos?

I've seen modern plastic drum heads made with two plys of mylar ( with an oil substance between). The effect is to dampen or mute the sound and change the tone.

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:05:33

quote:

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Originally posted by jbalch

It is not "normal" to use two plys of hide. Can you post photos?



I've seen modern plastic drum heads made with two plys of mylar ( with an oil substance between). The effect is to dampen or mute the sound and change the tone.

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It's hard to tell in via the photos. You can kind of see the 2 plys in the last photo. I stuck tape to both the top and bottom of the head and was able to pull them apart slightly.

OldPappy - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:19:08

That last photo merely shows the outer edge of the hide after it has been pulled around the flesh hoop and trimmed. I don't see two edges, and doubt the head is actually two plies.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:23:22

Here is the way they are stretched,which shows the overlap:

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:25:25

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

That last photo merely shows the outer edge of the hide after it has been pulled around the flesh hoop and trimmed. I don't see two edges, and doubt the head is actually two plies.

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It definitely does. As I stated above, I am able to pull them apart (I'd take a photo of this, but I am alone at the moment and only have two hands!). If you look very closely at the last photo you can see it.

Edited by - westsideryan on 02/21/2018 05:26:08

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:30:07

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

Here is the way they are stretched,which shows the overlap:

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I've actually stretched a couple of skins so I know how it's done. This head has two plys though. I'll try to figure out how to take a better photo and prove it!

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:41:27

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

That last photo merely shows the outer edge of the hide after it has been pulled around the flesh hoop and trimmed. I don't see two edges, and doubt the head is actually two plies.

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I tried to pull it apart and take a photo, but I am unable to pull the plys apart far enough to show in a single photo frame. I would have to take a video and would have to have another person here to do so.  So this labeled photo is the best I can do at the moment.

Edited by - westsideryan on 02/21/2018 05:42:26

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  05:50:17

Here's one more photo...

OldPappy - Posted - 02/21/2018:  06:40:04

Thanks, those enlarged photos clearly show to my old eyes that you are correct about it being two ply.

It is a very unusual thing to see, but folks have been tinkering with banjos for a long time, and there is a crowd of folks who try all sorts of things to dull down the tone of their banjos, which is the only purpose I can imagine for installing two heads on a banjo.

Interesting.

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  06:49:05

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

Thanks, those enlarged photos clearly show to my old eyes that you are correct about it being two ply.



It is a very unusual thing to see, but folks have been tinkering with banjos for a long time, and there is a crowd of folks who try all sorts of things to dull down the tone of their banjos, which is the only purpose I can imagine for installing two heads on a banjo.



Interesting.

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The head came installed on an Ome banjo that I had purchased. I was pretty disappointed in the way the banjo sounded until I replaced the hide head with a Remo Renaissance. After the head swap the banjo sounded fantastic. I didn't realize until this morning that the original head had two plys which seemed odd to me.

flatline - Posted - 02/21/2018:  06:50:21

there's a chance that the second layer is a only 1 " skin strip, plied around the hoop to protect the head against the sharp edge and to avoid ripping, a kind of double lining.
A picture says more ... the red line is the double lining

 

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  06:53:50

quote:

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Originally posted by flatline

there's a chance that the second layer is a only 1 " skin strip, plied around the hoop to protect the head against the sharp edge and to avoid ripping, a kind of double lining.

A picture says more ... the red line is the double lining

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It definitely does have two plys throughout. As I stated above, I am able to pull the two halves apart using tape.

flatline - Posted - 02/21/2018:  07:11:28

quote:

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Originally posted by westsideryan

quote:

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Originally posted by flatline

there's a chance that the second layer is a only 1 " skin strip, plied around the hoop to protect the head against the sharp edge and to avoid ripping, a kind of double lining.

A picture says more ... the red line is the double lining

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It definitely does have two plys throughout. As I stated above, I am able to pull the two halves apart using tape.

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it was just an idea; drummers used to mount heads this way, before they changed to Mylar etc.

As for the two layers : never seen that before; indeed maybe to dampen the sound in any way.

F

OldPappy - Posted - 02/21/2018:  07:48:27

" I was pretty disappointed in the way the banjo sounded until I replaced the hide head with a Remo Renaissance."

Whenever I have mounted a skin head I have always wanted the thinnest one I could get, I imagine mounting two heads (two ply) would really dull down the tone.

Never will understand why folks want a dull sounding banjo, but there have been countless BHO forum threads on ways to do just that.

I want my banjos to ring out with all the volume I can get out of them. You can play lightly when you want to, and still have enough power to punch through and drive the rhythm when called for. You can't do that with a dulled down banjo.

I like hot rod cars too, with lots of power, but having a lot of power doesn't mean you always drive it with the pedal all the way down, just means you have the extra punch when you want it.

westsideryan - Posted - 02/21/2018:  07:58:41

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

" I was pretty disappointed in the way the banjo sounded until I replaced the hide head with a Remo Renaissance."



Whenever I have mounted a skin head I have always wanted the thinnest one I could get, I imagine mounting two heads (two ply) would really dull down the tone.



Never will understand why folks want a dull sounding banjo, but there have been countless BHO forum threads on ways to do just that.



I want my banjos to ring out with all the volume I can get out of them. You can play lightly when you want to, and still have enough power to punch through and drive the rhythm when called for. You can't do that with a dulled down banjo.



I like hot rod cars too, with lots of power, but having a lot of power doesn't mean you always drive it with the pedal all the way down, just means you have the extra punch when you want it.

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I don't care for a lot of overtones so I stuff my banjo with a little sheepskin which doesn't do too much to the overall volume (although this Ome sounds pretty darn good unstuffed). The two ply head just sounded real dead.

OldPappy - Posted - 02/21/2018:  08:08:49

I am sure it did.

Some banjos do have excessive overtones, and I too will roll up a piece of cloth and stick it between the dowel and head at the heel end, rather than stuffing something near the bridge. I don't want it very tight, just lightly touching the head. This usually solves excessive overtones without dampening the tone or volume.

Most OME banjos I have played have sounded very good.

rudy - Posted - 02/21/2018:  09:36:51

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

" I was pretty disappointed in the way the banjo sounded until I replaced the hide head with a Remo Renaissance."



Whenever I have mounted a skin head I have always wanted the thinnest one I could get, I imagine mounting two heads (two ply) would really dull down the tone.



Never will understand why folks want a dull sounding banjo, but there have been countless BHO forum threads on ways to do just that.



I want my banjos to ring out with all the volume I can get out of them. You can play lightly when you want to, and still have enough power to punch through and drive the rhythm when called for. You can't do that with a dulled down banjo.



I like hot rod cars too, with lots of power, but having a lot of power doesn't mean you always drive it with the pedal all the way down, just means you have the extra punch when you want it.

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No offense meant, Andy, but there are plenty of viable reasons why players would prefer a "dulled down" tone.

First, Volume and tonality are two separate parameters.  Many players confuse a sharper upper register tone with volume, although most do perceive edgier tonality with "piercing volume".

Many players do appreciate a softer tone, and for those of us with medical conditions (I have both tinnitus and hyperacusis, characterized by physical pain at certain volumes and specific frequencies.)

My experience as a maker has shown me that there's always a trade off when you try to aim your instruments in a particular direction.  Banjos with the highest volume levels for the most part sacrifice lower end tone, and I'll gladly stay about a block away from a typical Mastertone style banjo.

I love banjos but I'm allergic to pain.

It's true that you can play at a lower volume level on an instrument that is designed for a sharp tonality at high volume, but the tone just isn't there if you're not physically driving the strings to a certain level.

Again, not trying to be contrarian, just an attempt to help you understand why some might prefer a "dull sounding banjo".  Since, as you say, there are countless forum threads on this there must be a pretty good reason as well as desire for a slightly rounder and less abrasive tonality.

OldPappy - Posted - 02/21/2018:  10:29:27

Rudy,

No apologies ever needed for you stating your opinions, they are valuable to me.

You are correct that tone and volume are two different things, however I do have some disagreement with part of the below sentence, as it is not what I have in mind when I want a banjo to ring out, and have plenty of volume.

"It's true that you can play at a lower volume level on an instrument that is designed for a sharp tonality at high volume, but the tone just isn't there if you're not physically driving the strings to a certain level."

I get what you are saying, and it may be true with a Mastertone, but mine are simply not that kind of banjo, and given that tone and volume are indeed two different things, I submit that just because a banjo is designed to be capable of good volume does not always mean it will have "sharp tonality" at high volume.

Bass notes can be loud too, and a banjo with good tonal range in the hands of someone who knows how to play it, can have that drive and still sound as sweet and warm as a lover.

rudy - Posted - 02/22/2018:  16:30:31

quote:

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Originally posted by OldPappy

Rudy,



No apologies ever needed for you stating your opinions, they are valuable to me.



You are correct that tone and volume are two different things, however I do have some disagreement with part of the below sentence, as it is not what I have in mind when I want a banjo to ring out, and have plenty of volume.



"It's true that you can play at a lower volume level on an instrument that is designed for a sharp tonality at high volume, but the tone just isn't there if you're not physically driving the strings to a certain level."



I get what you are saying, and it may be true with a Mastertone, but mine are simply not that kind of banjo, and given that tone and volume are indeed two different things, I submit that just because a banjo is designed to be capable of good volume does not always mean it will have "sharp tonality" at high volume.



Bass notes can be loud too, and a banjo with good tonal range in the hands of someone who knows how to play it, can have that drive and still sound as sweet and warm as a lover.

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I'll certainly agree with your points. All of your comments are particularly salient in regard to open back banjos.  IMHO the Mastertone formula always assaults my ears and my sensibilities.  Obviosly that's not the case with a lot of players, but I personally have no interest in resonated banjos and the pain they inflict for me personally is my sole reason.

I have run across very few open backs that I felt uncomfortable around, and those are from makers who use heavy brass rings similar to Mastertone style rings.

beegee - Posted - 02/22/2018:  19:38:10

Is it possible that this was a vintage drum "batter" head, where they uses two plys for longevity?

westsideryan - Posted - 02/22/2018:  19:41:32

quote:

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Originally posted by beegee

Is it possible that this was a vintage drum "batter" head, where they uses two plys for longevity?

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Maybe, but I kind of doubt it. The head doesn't appear to be very old. 

tdennis - Posted - 02/22/2018:  20:09:21

In my experience as a a vintage drum dealer & skin head enthusiast, I've never encountered a double skin head. Such a head would be dull as H, & difficult as H to mount The OP must have a one off experiment or some other type of folk repair.

link-o-sausages - Posted - 02/22/2018:  20:19:14

Looks like somone brought their banjo to a drum tec and he did his best with what he knew.

jbalch - Posted - 02/26/2018:  09:44:03

A couple of years ago, I had two very thin hides and tried to double-up and see if I could mount them together as a 2-ply head. It was just an experiment to see what it might sound like and how it would work.

It didn't work a all. After the hides dried - there were still gaps (air pockets) between them. I trashed it and chalked it up to experience.

My hat is off to whomever mounted these. Looks like they a good job.

westsideryan - Posted - 02/26/2018:  19:40:02

quote:

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Originally posted by jbalch

A couple of years ago, I had two very thin hides and tried to double-up and see if I could mount them together as a 2-ply head. It was just an experiment to see what it might sound like and how it would work. It didn't work a all. After the hides dried - there were still gaps (air pockets) between them. I trashed it and chalked it up to experience. My hat is off to whomever mounted these. Looks like they a good job.

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There is actually a little bit of air trapped between the two layers. That's what tipped me off that it was two layers. I only noticed it after the head was removed from the banjo (and only recently when I revisited the head after it had be removed for quite some time). I remember that I tried and tried, but I just couldn't get it to sound decent. I found this strange because I had favored the sound of hide in the past.

Edited by - westsideryan on 02/26/2018 19:40:34