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spoonfed - Posted - 02/09/2018: 12:29:11
wow! yeah must be, it is in E, sounds a bit like John Hartford tuned down like that, nice rich sound, very cool,thanks Joe.
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/09/2018: 13:06:07
quote:
Originally posted by pastorharry
I read that Dave Guard changed tuners several times on the same banjo, looking for the ones that would help him stay in tune on stage. His famous line, "If I ever get this thing tuned I'm gonna have it welded!!" LOL .
Bob Shane told me something to that effect.
It’s on of the reasons I had always figured that the one with the Klusons was the same banjo — till it showed up after “Dave’s PS-5” with the Grovers had been sold and he had passed. We got Bob on the conference call and he’s the one who said that there were two.
Dave Guard had given it to a live-in housekeeper. When the woman knew the recipe for the health shake that Dave drank every morning, it was the final clue and Bob declared it had to be the other Vega.
That also explained why, in some interviews, Dave claimed he bought it in 1958 and, in others, he claimed 1959.
I don’t remember where I found the backstage picture but I didn’t realize it was a backstage shot of the KT at the time. as soon as I knew there were two Vegas, it made sense. I’m probably the reason it’s been widely posted.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/11/2018: 05:45:41
In 1961, shortly after John Stewart joined the KT, Capitol wanted to assert him as the new "Dave Guard" in the group as quickly and seamlessly as possible. They had a photo shoot where the guys posed for several pictures - the first shots where John Stewart was part of the trio. They took the cover shot for "Close-up", "College Concert",where they posed on yellow seamless paper , and the picture below, not used until later when the "Flashback CD was released.
He had his banjo from the Cumberland Three.
Here you can see in the two shots, 24 hooks and a sunburst finish on the neck - look closely, and you can see the off-center vegalon logo on the head. They did some other shots with different shirts at the same shoot.
kwfolk1 - Posted - 02/11/2018: 13:08:41
Great info! Thanks to all!
Jim E. - Posted - 02/12/2018: 07:53:42
This is an interesting thread, but there are some opinions and statements with which I find myself in respectful disagreement. I know that those who like longnecks REALLY like them, so any opinions I have about their shortcomings will likely have little weight. I'll therefore confine my remarks to only what I think is the most important.
My first “good” banjo was a Vega Pete Seeger model and I thought it was a very good sounding instrument. I played it for several years. The highs were clear with great note separation, and the tone had a lovely depth to it. These positives were however, at least for me, offset by more than a few negatives. The most glaring of these negatives was the set screw system of neck adjustment. I think this approach to neck adjustment is one of the most ill-advised features of the Vega Pete Seeger banjo.
Why? To achieve a banjo's full tonal and volume potential, there must be a perfect and tightly attached mating of neck to rim. In repairing banjos for a number of years (and building a few of my own), I quickly learned that optimal neck-to-rim fit is fundamental to a achieving a banjo's full potential.
To raise or lower the action on a VPS using the set screws introduces a space between the neck and the rim with a consequent negative effect on volume and tone. To verify the importance of the neck-to-rim fit, one might consult just about any experienced banjo luthier. Roger Siminoff, for example, discusses it in his book 'Constructing a 5-String Banjo'. Also, the Vega set screw neck adjustment feature is addressed in an informative overview that was done several years ago by author and banjo player Peter Curry. It can be found here: lazyka.com/linernotes/OddsAndE...eeger.htm
I have other issues with longneck banjos but as I said above, those probably would be of little consequence to those who are devoted to them. If you have a VPS with the set screw adjustment system and you're happy with how it sounds, well, good; may you continue to enjoy your banjo for years to come. If, however, you want it to sound as good as it can, take it to a qualified banjo repair person and have him or her properly fit the heel to the rim.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/12/2018: 08:24:48
I hate to see this thread turn into a foolish discussion about neck-to-rim fit filled with a lot of nonsensical conventional wisdom and anecdotal testimonials supporting one position or another.
My objective here was to restore this banjo to the way it was supposed to be when first built - and that's what I did. I have actually made numerous banjos that I like the sound of better than this one, and have explored all the normal methods of neck attachment over a 50+ year period of repairing and building banjos. I find this one to work perfectly well and would not set this banjo up any other way because of some misunderstood concept of the acoustical physics of banjos - it is what it is and does a great job of being what it is.
Jim E. - Posted - 02/12/2018: 08:52:14
Ken, it was not my intention to turn this thread into “a foolish discussion” about the arcana of banjo tone. I only hoped to clarify to those not having your expertise a misconception they may have gotten from your initial post. Simply put, the set screw system of neck adjustment is not “ingenious” as you stated; it is ill-conceived and it impairs a banjo's tonal response. If the goal was solely to return the banjo to “the way it was supposed to be when first built”, I think it would have been more responsible to have at least mentioned the shortcomings of the set screw system in your otherwise informative remarks.
VPS - Posted - 02/12/2018: 09:27:19
Sorry been sick-
Hey Mike-
To my eye, the banjo on the left in the dressing room shot sure looks like it has 24 hooks. The one on the right is 28-look at the spacing between them.
I guess we'll never know for sure. Dave is gone, John is gone, and Bob is failing rapidly.
And ken-sorry for my part in steering this one off course, but it HAS been fun!
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/12/2018: 12:31:46
quote:
Originally posted by VPS
Sorry been sick-
Hey Mike-
To my eye, the banjo on the left in the dressing room shot sure looks like it has 24 hooks. The one on the right is 28-look at the spacing between them.
I guess we'll never know for sure. Dave is gone, John is gone, and Bob is failing rapidly.
And ken-sorry for my part in steering this one off course, but it HAS been fun!
Josh, look really carefully. Hook #4 looks strange in the front shot and reflection. It may be missing and all we're seeing is the bracket shoe. If you include that, there are 7 between thw 12:00 and 3:00 position. In any case, that banjo has a dowel—that's quite clear.
If one was a 24 bracket and the other was a 28, we wouldn't be guessing. The spacing is different enough to see even in a bad picture as that one.
Yes, we really do know for sure on that banjo. It is the one in the picture with Bob's D-28 and Nick's tenor. The head was repositioned.
If I knew which serial number was which, I'd know which one was purchased in '58 and which was purchased in '59.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 02/12/2018 12:41:08
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/12/2018: 12:37:26
Ken,
Sorry to sidetrack this thread. I was responding to show why John Stewart's dark banjo was not one of Dave Guard's and went a bit overboard, I suppose.
zac - Posted - 02/12/2018: 12:46:22
I also counted 7 before 90 degrees mark. I have had 28 bracket banjo for 30 years and just checked the bracket spacing. It's about 1 and 1/4 " 32mm. You can also compare it with the width of the neck. 24 bracket spacing is much wider.
spoonfed - Posted - 02/12/2018: 13:47:13
maybe I have missed something in this fascinating discussion , can somebody enlighten me please ? the bracket band here seems to fit onto the surface of the pot hence the need for the bolts to go all the way through to the inside, on my own 1927 tubaphone the bracket band sits in a rabbett and is where the bolts terminate, ie; not visible inside the pot ( slight pain sometimes as I have had to remove it to tighten some loose shoes ) is the PS model not the same ? is the bracket band more for show than function like on the oldies ? and if so does this have any affect on tone ? sorry to sound so ignorant it looks that way to me, never seen one in the flesh as it were, very rare beasts this side of the pond sadly !
wesrichards - Posted - 02/12/2018: 13:52:36
Belt and suspenders as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong, guys.
mainejohn - Posted - 02/12/2018: 14:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by spoonfed
all of this info from guys who know their stuff is most intriguing, I am a big Luke Kelly fan and I think he ended his career playing a Pete Seeger Vega after his Merlin allegedly fell apart ! I have never however, seen or heard an uncapo'd longneck played for instance in E or F, can anybody direct me to where I might hear or see one being played low ? would love to hear the "growl" some players talk about.
Billy Faier usually played his longneck vega with no capo, at least that's what he told me as I sat with him in 2011, when I took this of him playing my homemade longneck sans capo. Check out his 1973 album "Banjo". His "Improvisation in E" is a wonderful example of his style utilizing all 25 frets, as are the other cuts. Sorry to sidetrack the thread...just addressing the quoted question. Great thread, Ken.
Edited by - mainejohn on 02/12/2018 14:02:35
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/12/2018: 14:51:56
quote:
Originally posted by spoonfed
maybe I have missed something in this fascinating discussion , can somebody enlighten me please ? the bracket band here seems to fit onto the surface of the pot hence the need for the bolts to go all the way through to the inside, on my own 1927 tubaphone the bracket band sits in a rabbett and is where the bolts terminate, ie; not visible inside the pot ( slight pain sometimes as I have had to remove it to tighten some loose shoes ) is the PS model not the same ? is the bracket band more for show than function like on the oldies ? and if so does this have any affect on tone ? sorry to sound so ignorant it looks that way to me, never seen one in the flesh as it were, very rare beasts this side of the pond sadly !
No. The bolts started going through the pot in the 1930s with the VegaVox. The bracket band was always flush with the pot above and the pot was machined so that it could slide on—the PS-5 was no exception.
As Ken already pointed out, the '60s bracket band is a little thinner. I don't know when the bracket band got thinner— 1930s? Later? I don't have a Vox to compare with my PS-5 and '20s Tubaphones. Neither do I know why they decided to run the bolts through but I will guess that it saved some labor.
Waverly made the bands, brackets, nuts, shoes and tone rings from around 1915 till they went under in the late 1960s. Martin used the old hardware that they had and Greg Deering acquired much of that after he bought the Vega name from Galaxy Trading aka Vega of California.
Edited by - mikehalloran on 02/12/2018 14:54:30
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/12/2018: 16:00:00
quote:
Originally posted by mikehalloran
quote:
Originally posted by spoonfed
maybe I have missed something in this fascinating discussion , can somebody enlighten me please ? the bracket band here seems to fit onto the surface of the pot hence the need for the bolts to go all the way through to the inside, on my own 1927 tubaphone the bracket band sits in a rabbett and is where the bolts terminate, ie; not visible inside the pot ( slight pain sometimes as I have had to remove it to tighten some loose shoes ) is the PS model not the same ? is the bracket band more for show than function like on the oldies ? and if so does this have any affect on tone ? sorry to sound so ignorant it looks that way to me, never seen one in the flesh as it were, very rare beasts this side of the pond sadly !
No. The bolts started going through the pot in the 1930s with the VegaVox. The bracket band was always flush with the pot above and the pot was machined so that it could slide on—the PS-5 was no exception.
As Ken already pointed out, the '60s bracket band is a little thinner. I don't know when the bracket band got thinner— 1930s? Later? I don't have a Vox to compare with my PS-5 and '20s Tubaphones. Neither do I know why they decided to run the bolts through but I will guess that it saved some labor.
Waverly made the bands, brackets, nuts, shoes and tone rings from around 1915 till they went under in the late 1960s. Martin used the old hardware that they had and Greg Deering acquired much of that after he bought the Vega name from Galaxy Trading aka Vega of California.
I've had the good fortune to work on a number of old Tubaphone pots, and I often measure them,weigh some parts, and make sketches when I have them apart.
Some I have taken apart are a Style S from 1919, a No.9 from around 1920, several Vegaphones from the 1930s, and three 60s ones. At least in the ones I have seen, the old ones all had 1/8" bracket bands with the brackets bolted to the bracket band, 28 hooks and dowel sticks with a 2 - 2 1/2 degree angle. The 60s ones had a thinner bracket band (.050") with heavy bolts going through, which I think made up the weight difference between .125" and .050". The rims were all very similar - 7 ply, although the Vegaphone ones were a little thicker and the "land" where the Tubahone sits was different in all of them. The 60s ones I measured had the aluminum rods or the rod-and-tube. One had two set screws, one (the one in this thread) had 4. Other details,like the shape of the shoes changed and the tension hoop went from 5/8" on the old ones to 9/16" on the 60s ones
I know that Dave Guard's banjo, which I have always been very interested in was a late 50s transitional one had 28 hooks and a dowel stick. The drawing I am showing of that era is based on photographs I have studied, so is at least partly conjectural. For instance, I don't know the exact dimension of the
land" where the Tubaphone sat, but based that detail in my drawing on the classic one and a "Professional" pot rim, which had no bracket band, but a "bracket flange".
Obviously, I'd love to get to measure a late 50s PS Like Dave's.
As a note, I have compared the sound of this PS in the thread, to another pot I converted to a longneck, with a full 1/8" bracket band and a dowel stick, which ought to sound better, right? There is really very little difference, which explains my lack of interest in condemning the set screws, which I'll admit I once did - fairly vigorously, before actually being able to compare one to the other, which I can now do.
If I get a chance this week, I'll post sound files of the two on this thread.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/12/2018 16:11:53
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/13/2018: 09:32:13
Being a man of my word, here are three sound files. I think there is such a thing as a "good banjo", and here are three of them, I'm not going to say which is which at this point - you can guess. One is the John Stewart era PS of this thread. Just for fun, one is a 1927 Granada, and we all know they can peel paint, and one is a late 50s-early 60s Professional pot I converted into a longneck - it has a full 1/8" bracket band and a dowel stick -I think I alluded to it before. It's a fantasy banjo, because I don't think there was ever a PS with a bracket band and no bolts, but that's the way I did it - the rim on the Professional had no holes in it, and I didn't want to drill it because it's an antique at this point.
Call them the three tenors (or baritones)
Originally I was going to do my attempt at frailing - Coast of California, Blow Ye Winds, Darlin' Corey, but who wants to hear my bad frailing. I thought this banjo is a John Stewart vintage, so I remembered him doing a kind of double thumbing / 3-finger intro to Reuben James. It's been years since I heard that, so this is not "authentic" playing, but you get the idea of the three banjos - all of them good banjos in my opinion, and so I ain't sayin' which is which. (I know which is which because the dog howls at the end of one and I slide up to the high note in one)
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/13/2018 09:37:05
Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/13/2018: 10:33:55
Interesting sound clips. They all sound good to me. Based on the overtones, I'm guessing the last sound file (the one on the far right) is the Gibson.
Nice bit of vocal by your critter. :->
Edited by - Dan Drabek on 02/13/2018 10:34:31
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/13/2018: 10:47:21
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Drabek
Interesting sound clips. They all sound good to me. Based on the overtones, I'm guessing the last sound file (the one on the far right) is the Gibson.
Nice bit of vocal by your critter. :->
I'm guessing the same is the Gibson. It has a deeper fundamental tone that I've not heard in my Tubaphones.
All three sound great!
llrevis - Posted - 02/13/2018: 13:37:04
They all sound great; I haven’t a clue which is which. I was able to pick out which one was the German Shepherd.
I hope you will enlighten us.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/13/2018: 14:12:54
quote:
Originally posted by llrevis
They all sound great; I haven’t a clue which is which. I was able to pick out which one was the German Shepherd.
I hope you will enlighten us.
Tomorrow I will.
I had to practice for at least 1/2 hour before Hugo stopped singing. He doesn't sing when I am playing them back - only the live music. The piano really sets him off - it's nearly impossible to tune a banjo to the piano because he starts singing and won't stop.
Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/13/2018: 15:50:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
I had to practice for at least 1/2 hour before Hugo stopped singing. He doesn't sing when I am playing them back - only the live music. The piano really sets him off - it's nearly impossible to tune a banjo to the piano because he starts singing and won't stop.
Our dogs favor us with a serenade every time we come home.
members.cruzio.com/~danield/do...enade.mp4
DD
redwing46 - Posted - 02/14/2018: 09:18:43
Anyone interested in acquiring a Vega Pete Seeger banjo? Check out a nice unaltered one that Lark Street Music
has for sale currently, with Elton tuners, metal co-ordinating rods, and excellent original hardshell case, from 1962.
FlyinEagle - Posted - 02/14/2018: 10:38:06
I’m going to guess that the 1st one with your pup is the Vega with your neck.
The 2nd one with the slide is the Seeger
The last one with the plucked chord to end is the Granada.
My favorite tone is the 1st , my least favorite is the 2nd clip.
jlsorbit - Posted - 02/14/2018: 10:58:36
I'm going to guess the first one is the Granada, the second is the John Stewart PS, and the third is the long-neck conversion.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/14/2018: 11:57:29
Here you go - I don't know how these appear on various computers:
(1) The one with the dog howling, to the upper left as I see it on my computer is the Granada - the only one where Hugo howls at the end.
(2) The one on the upper right on my computer is the dowel stick pro-pot conversion
(3) The one on the lower lft on my computer, maybe far right on a wider screen is the actual PS-5- the subject of this thread. It's the only one where I slid up to the high note.
Here's a screen shot of the way they look on my computer.
This just in:
A b/w promo "glossy", as they were called in the day, of the Cumberland 3 - John Stewart has the 24 hook banjo, and I think, this being a promo glossy, they probably airbrushed the Vegalon logo out of the negative so it didn't look like a plug for Vegalon.
llrevis - Posted - 02/14/2018: 12:05:13
Thank you.
Joe Connor - Posted - 02/14/2018: 12:53:30
This is an unbelievably good thread, and I hope we keep it going. So much information and so many cool photos.
As I look at those photos, however, it brings on a certain melancholy feeling. How is it possible that Dave Guard has been dead for more than 25 years, Nick Reynolds and John Stewart have been gone for 10 years, and Bob Shane, the only one left, is 83? They look so young and vibrant in those photos. Time marches on, I suppose.
Edited by - Joe Connor on 02/14/2018 12:53:54
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/14/2018: 14:15:20
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Connor
This is an unbelievably good thread, and I hope we keep it going. So much information and so many cool photos.
As I look at those photos, however, it brings on a certain melancholy feeling. How is it possible that Dave Guard has been dead for more than 25 years, Nick Reynolds and John Stewart have been gone for 10 years, and Bob Shane, the only one left, is 83? They look so young and vibrant in those photos. Time marches on, I suppose.
You can also add in Hedy West, Eric Darling, Tommy Makem, and Pete Seeger.
When I got the pre-war Granada I used in the sound files, I was 19 and the banjo was 36 years old - I thought of it as an ancient antique. Now It's 91. The instruments will outlive us all.
llrevis - Posted - 02/14/2018: 15:34:26
I was 22 when I bought the PS. I am going to be 77 in March. I didn’t pay cash for the PS; I traded a Ludwig drum set for it. I was a drummer brfore I was a banjo player.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/14/2018: 15:41:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
Here you go - I don't know how these appear on various computers:
(1) The one with the dog howling, to the upper left as I see it on my computer is the Granada - the only one where Hugo howls at the end.
(2) The one on the upper right on my computer is the dowel stick pro-pot conversion
(3) The one on the lower lft on my computer, maybe far right on a wider screen is the actual PS-5- the subject of this thread. It's the only one where I slid up to the high note.
Here's a screen shot of the way they look on my computer.
This just in:
A b/w promo "glossy", as they were called in the day, of the Cumberland 3 - John Stewart has the 24 hook banjo, and I think, this being a promo glossy, they probably airbrushed the Vegalon logo out of the negative so it didn't look like a plug for Vegalon.
There is a Weatherking crown peeking from under the tailpiece.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/14/2018: 16:04:08
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
Here you go - I don't know how these appear on various computers:
(1) The one with the dog howling, to the upper left as I see it on my computer is the Granada - the only one where Hugo howls at the end.
(2) The one on the upper right on my computer is the dowel stick pro-pot conversion
(3) The one on the lower lft on my computer, maybe far right on a wider screen is the actual PS-5- the subject of this thread. It's the only one where I slid up to the high note.
Here's a screen shot of the way they look on my computer.
This just in:
A b/w promo "glossy", as they were called in the day, of the Cumberland 3 - John Stewart has the 24 hook banjo, and I think, this being a promo glossy, they probably airbrushed the Vegalon logo out of the negative so it didn't look like a plug for Vegalon.
There is a Weatherking crown peeking from under the tailpiece.
I see that!! You have a sharp eye.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/14/2018 16:08:30
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/14/2018: 16:23:16
quote:
Originally posted by mainejohn
quote:
Originally posted by spoonfed
all of this info from guys who know their stuff is most intriguing, I am a big Luke Kelly fan and I think he ended his career playing a Pete Seeger Vega after his Merlin allegedly fell apart ! I have never however, seen or heard an uncapo'd longneck played for instance in E or F, can anybody direct me to where I might hear or see one being played low ? would love to hear the "growl" some players talk about.
Billy Faier usually played his longneck vega with no capo, at least that's what he told me as I sat with him in 2011, when I took this of him playing my homemade longneck sans capo. Check out his 1973 album "Banjo". His "Improvisation in E" is a wonderful example of his style utilizing all 25 frets, as are the other cuts. Sorry to sidetrack the thread...just addressing the quoted question. Great thread, Ken.
John,
If that's the banjo you had at Bill's in Chatauqua, that's a heck of a banjo. I remember it had a huge presence.
mainejohn - Posted - 02/14/2018: 16:55:37
Yes, Ken, it's one and the same. I think I got lucky, as it was my first and last shot at making a longneck. The tone and volume are magnificent, and you aren't the first who has commented as such. I built it with a piece of birdseye maple I had bought in 1975, left to season from then until I built the neck in 2009. I didn't use a truss rod, theorizing in my untrained mind that a truss rod, although theoretically adding to neck stability, detracts from tone and volume. The heel is perfectly flush with the rim, and it has a dowel stick, not the tone-inhibiting (my opinion) co-rods. Ten years later, the neck is perfectly straight, and having shaped it to fit my hand, feels like an extension of my arm. Billy Faier loved the feel and tone. His words, not mine.
edit: same one I'm holding in my profile photo, taken last month.
Edited by - mainejohn on 02/14/2018 16:58:29
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/14/2018: 17:23:17
quote:
Originally posted by mainejohn
Yes, Ken, it's one and the same. I think I got lucky, as it was my first and last shot at making a longneck. The tone and volume are magnificent, and you aren't the first who has commented as such. I built it with a piece of birdseye maple I had bought in 1975, left to season from then until I built the neck in 2009. I didn't use a truss rod, theorizing in my untrained mind that a truss rod, although theoretically adding to neck stability, detracts from tone and volume. The heel is perfectly flush with the rim, and it has a dowel stick, not the tone-inhibiting (my opinion) co-rods. Ten years later, the neck is perfectly straight, and having shaped it to fit my hand, feels like an extension of my arm. Billy Faier loved the feel and tone. His words, not mine.
edit: same one I'm holding in my profile photo, taken last month.
As I recall, it is a tribute to Pete Seeger's banjo, which was a vintage 28 hook tubaphone pot with a neck he made (also with no truss rod). How close did you go to his pot? I remember you had actually seen Pete's and remarked on how beat up it was, and you got the peghead exactly like Pete's (except not broken).
mainejohn - Posted - 02/14/2018: 17:55:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
quote:
Originally posted by mainejohn
Yes, Ken, it's one and the same. I think I got lucky, as it was my first and last shot at making a longneck. The tone and volume are magnificent, and you aren't the first who has commented as such. I built it with a piece of birdseye maple I had bought in 1975, left to season from then until I built the neck in 2009. I didn't use a truss rod, theorizing in my untrained mind that a truss rod, although theoretically adding to neck stability, detracts from tone and volume. The heel is perfectly flush with the rim, and it has a dowel stick, not the tone-inhibiting (my opinion) co-rods. Ten years later, the neck is perfectly straight, and having shaped it to fit my hand, feels like an extension of my arm. Billy Faier loved the feel and tone. His words, not mine.
edit: same one I'm holding in my profile photo, taken last month.
As I recall, it is a tribute to Pete Seeger's banjo, which was a vintage 28 hook tubaphone pot with a neck he made (also with no truss rod). How close did you go to his pot? I remember you had actually seen Pete's and remarked on how beat up it was, and you got the peghead exactly like Pete's (except not broken).
Yes, I did make it as a tribute to Pete's iconic lignum vitae neck that he made in the 50's. I didn't have the exact specs of his, so I went by several photos of his, making the neck thicker and wider that those of factory PS-5's, but as close as possible as I could without actually seeing his first hand. His pot, from what I've seen and read, was a mid-50's, holes-thru-the-rim 10 15/16" Tubaphone, whereas mine is a 1927 10 15/16" Tubaphone. I made the neck from scratch, and got lucky, thanks to Bill Hayes' heel cutting jig and his fret setting tool, plus more luck with the neck angle, it came out much better than I expected. Early on, I dismantled it three times and refined the shape of the neck to even a better fit to my left hand, something that is ill-advised with a factory neck. I have several other banjos, but this one is my work horse.
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/14/2018: 18:31:25
Apropos of what John said, Here are neck profile measurements from the PS-5 of this thread and a 60s ODE longneck. The profiles on the left side are at the third fret - it gets narrower after that. The crookedness and extreme narrowness of the ODE profiles is accurate - I used a finger gauge or pin gauge (whatever you call them) to do the profile measurements on both banjos.
If we could measure Pete Seeger's banjo neck,I'm sure it would be wider. In my opinion, they (both Vega and ODE) went a little overboard on the narrowness of the neck above the third fret and it gets so narrow up there, the strings are precariously close to the edge of the fingerboard, just where the strings would be slack if you played it open. You can see the narrowness in the picture of John Stewart in the Cumberland three glossy.
Like John, I made the neck on the pro pot conversion banjo in this thread a little wider up there, which makes a difference in playability. Pete Seeger did the same with his Lignum Vitae neck, but for some reason Vega didn't pick up on that - I think they were making the fingerboard "normal" at the third fret, then tapering down, assuming not many people were going to be playing it up there (which is probably accurate). Who knows?
On the Vega, the string spacing from 1-4 at the nut is 15/16", but the nut is only 1 1/8". On the ones I make, the string spacing at the nut is 1", and the nut is 1 1/4". It makes a difference.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/14/2018 18:35:29
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/15/2018: 12:58:11
quote:
Originally posted by spoonfed
all of this info from guys who know their stuff is most intriguing, I am a big Luke Kelly fan and I think he ended his career playing a Pete Seeger Vega after his Merlin allegedly fell apart ! I have never however, seen or heard an uncapo'd longneck played for instance in E or F, can anybody direct me to where I might hear or see one being played low ? would love to hear the "growl" some players talk about.
As I said in my last post about the narrowness of the neck as it approaches the nut, this one is hard to play open because the first string is so close to the edge of the fingerboard, when I reach up there and make a chord, my hand hits the first string and muffles it.
Nonetheless, here's a tune fully open - please forgive the messy playing. This is in minor tuning, which would make the key E minor. They have quite a sound un-capoed but it takes some practice.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/15/2018 12:58:45
6stringedRamble - Posted - 02/15/2018: 15:23:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
quote:
Originally posted by llrevis
I enjoyed reading about how you are restoring my old Vega. The Rotomatics kind throw me a little bit and I never liked the Permatension fifth peg. The setup was the way I bought it and I always assumed that was the way it was supposed to be.
I wish I could say I miss my old banjo, but I don’t.
I hope you will post more as you continue its restoration.
I read with interest every thing you post.
I'm glad you don't miss it. I will surely take good care of it. I think they got busy at the Vega factory at the height of the popularity of the PS, and didn't spend as much time as they should have.
I really don't like those Perma-tensions either, but they were the bomb-diggety in 1962, as were the Rotomatics (I don't like the Rotomatics much either - you have to turn them forever to change the pitch) But this is a period restoration.
It's is a piece of banjo history - When I got my 1927 Granada in 1963, I thought it was really old and it was 34 years old - this Seeger is now 53!
Hi Ken,
Why does it matter how high the finger board is from the head if the strings are level with the bridge? I've been checking out African banjo ancestors and "relatives" lately just out of curiosity, the kora, the bolon, the akonting, and ngoni. As I"m sure you know, in some cases they have necks similar to broom sticks and bridges several inches high.
Also, who would buy a Vega, which I assume was a decent investment even then, if the neck was visibly misaligned? Which kind of dealer would sell such a banjo?
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/15/2018: 16:31:56
quote:
Hi Ken,
Why does it matter how high the finger board is from the head if the strings are level with the bridge? I've been checking out African banjo ancestors and "relatives" lately just out of curiosity, the kora, the bolon, the akonting, and ngoni. As I"m sure you know, in some cases they have necks similar to broom sticks and bridges several inches high.
Also, who would buy a Vega, which I assume was a decent investment even then, if the neck was visibly misaligned? Which kind of dealer would sell such a banjo?
It's a matter of craftsmanship; primitive instruments are one thing, and something manufactured to be sold by a well known maker is another. There is a right way and a wrong way, according to their own specifications, and when they don't pay attention to the specs they themselves have created, it's just bad craftsmanship or workmanship or manufacturing, however you define it. There was a certain amount of hand-fitting in these, and this was in a period where the demand for this instrument exceeded their ability to make them fast enough with their trained people, so they got sloppy and probably hired some inexperienced help.
I don't think primitive instrument makers get behind on production all that often, and I'm sure that many of the dealers that sold Vegas were not well-versed in the proper setup- I can't imagine the music store in Harrisburg PA, where I lived and would have bought this when it was made, would have known diddely-squat about proper banjo setup and unless there was a complaint, their repair shop would never have seen it. At that time in my life, I would have probably thought that was the way it was supposed to be - how would I have known otherwise?
My interest here was to set it up the way they seem to have set them up when one was ordered by a known performer and they would put their best people on the task.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/15/2018 16:34:19
mikehalloran - Posted - 02/15/2018: 21:54:19
I’m pretty sure that the differences between the neck width on my ODE and PS-5 are greater. I’m out of town till Sunday and leaving again on Tuesday. I’ll try to get some measurements on Sunday if I can make the time.
6stringedRamble - Posted - 02/16/2018: 07:05:46
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
quote:
Hi Ken,
Why does it matter how high the finger board is from the head if the strings are level with the bridge? I've been checking out African banjo ancestors and "relatives" lately just out of curiosity, the kora, the bolon, the akonting, and ngoni. As I"m sure you know, in some cases they have necks similar to broom sticks and bridges several inches high.
Also, who would buy a Vega, which I assume was a decent investment even then, if the neck was visibly misaligned? Which kind of dealer would sell such a banjo?
It's a matter of craftsmanship; primitive instruments are one thing, and something manufactured to be sold by a well known maker is another. There is a right way and a wrong way, according to their own specifications, and when they don't pay attention to the specs they themselves have created, it's just bad craftsmanship or workmanship or manufacturing, however you define it. There was a certain amount of hand-fitting in these, and this was in a period where the demand for this instrument exceeded their ability to make them fast enough with their trained people, so they got sloppy and probably hired some inexperienced help.
I don't think primitive instrument makers get behind on production all that often, and I'm sure that many of the dealers that sold Vegas were not well-versed in the proper setup- I can't imagine the music store in Harrisburg PA, where I lived and would have bought this when it was made, would have known diddely-squat about proper banjo setup and unless there was a complaint, their repair shop would never have seen it. At that time in my life, I would have probably thought that was the way it was supposed to be - how would I have known otherwise?
My interest here was to set it up the way they seem to have set them up when one was ordered by a known performer and they would put their best people on the task.
Oh I see, bad craftsmanship and hurried schedule, coupled with dealers unversed in banjo-ese. Well the pic are cool I enjoy seeing how you fixed it. I guess what I meant to ask though would a raised finger board, aside from looking really bad, also mean a bad sound?
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/16/2018: 08:40:40
quote:
Originally posted by 6stringedRamble
Oh I see, bad craftsmanship and hurried schedule, coupled with dealers unversed in banjo-ese. Well the pic are cool I enjoy seeing how you fixed it. I guess what I meant to ask though would a raised finger board, aside from looking really bad, also mean a bad sound?
I get your point-if it plays, who cares how badly it was made because they make really wonky instruments in other places around the world, and the players can transcend any kind of folksy construction - broomsticks, etc.
As to your rhetorical question, I never tried to play it in the state it was in when I got it, and waited until I got it the way I wanted it, so I'll never know the answer. You do things your way, and I'll do them mine.
Dan Drabek - Posted - 02/16/2018: 09:30:54
Assuming the heel is cut at the normal angle, a raised fingerboard will require a taller bridge to achieve proper action. This can lead to wrist strain if you're playing bluegrass or any style where you rest a finger or two on the head.
If you want to use a standard height bridge, with a raised fingerboard, you have to cut the heel to a shallower angle. This reduces the angle of the strings over the bridge and can indeed alter the sound.
Banjos with fretboard extensions that float over the head that you see on some Gibson, and B&D models, also require a shallower heel angle, and in my experience have a rounder, softer sound than similar models with no extension and sharper angle. Some players prefer that kind of sound.
I once built a banjo with a fretboard extension, and it never gave me the sound and snap that I was looking for. I cut off the extension, lowered the neck, and increased the neck angle and it noticeably improved the sound for my taste.
DD
Ken LeVan - Posted - 02/16/2018: 09:56:03
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Drabek
Assuming the heel is cut at the normal angle, a raised fingerboard will require a taller bridge to achieve proper action. This can lead to wrist strain if you're playing bluegrass or any style where you rest a finger or two on the head.
If you want to use a standard height bridge, with a raised fingerboard, you have to cut the heel to a shallower angle. This reduces the angle of the strings over the bridge and can indeed alter the sound.
Banjos with fretboard extensions that float over the head that you see on some Gibson, and B&D models, also require a shallower heel angle, and in my experience have a rounder, softer sound than similar models with no extension and sharper angle. Some players prefer that kind of sound.
I once built a banjo with a fretboard extension, and it never gave me the sound and snap that I was looking for. I cut off the extension, lowered the neck, and increased the neck angle and it noticeably improved the sound for my taste.
DD
Dan, you are absolutely right.
Case in point: When you have a frailing scoop, the playing level of the fingerboard sits up higher than the scoop itself, which is what joins to the pot, Proper setup would be that rhe scoop sits ever so slightly above the head surface.
Depending on the height/depth of the scoop, the fingerboard could go out over the head if extended. In order to get a normal bridge height with a scoop, the angle is shallower - instead of the normal 3 degrees it can be somewhere between 1 and 2.
Edited by - Ken LeVan on 02/16/2018 09:56:57
6stringedRamble - Posted - 02/16/2018: 10:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
quote:
Originally posted by 6stringedRamble
Oh I see, bad craftsmanship and hurried schedule, coupled with dealers unversed in banjo-ese. Well the pic are cool I enjoy seeing how you fixed it. I guess what I meant to ask though would a raised finger board, aside from looking really bad, also mean a bad sound?
I get your point-if it plays, who cares how badly it was made because they make really wonky instruments in other places around the world, and the players can transcend any kind of folksy construction - broomsticks, etc.
As to your rhetorical question, I never tried to play it in the state it was in when I got it, and waited until I got it the way I wanted it, so I'll never know the answer. You do things your way, and I'll do them mine.
I see you're a man who takes a lot of pride in his craftsmanship. That's great, too many things made in chinese sweatshops or popped off a machine these days. I was really only wondering what the difference is acoustically, as I don't know much about banjo setups at all, because I know guitars must be very precise, and I am impressed by your luthier skills. that's all.
Edited by - 6stringedRamble on 02/16/2018 10:43:39
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